Would you like to see a phasing out of the Novus Ordo Missae leading to a return to only the TLM?

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But for the sake of argument, say the Words are meant to be recited as narrative. I wish to put forward what Joseph Pohle wrote in his work on Dogmatic Theology. He seems to (correct me if I’m wrong) say that an intention to consecrate is sufficient, as long as there is not a positive contrary intention of the priest NOT to consecrate by the Words. He is treating the case of Eastern Orthodox priests who attribute the consecration to the “epiclesis” and not to the Words
What if a schismatic priest would say Mass with the express intention of consecrating not by the divine words of institution, but by the Epiklesis? If this were generally the case among the schismatic Greeks, should we not be forced to the conclusion that, since the seventeenth century at least, when the Greek Church began officially to connect the Consecration with the Epiklesis, they no longer say Mass validly?
If the minister of a Sacrament performs the prescribed rite conscientiously and with the proper intention, the Sacrament is validly administered and will produce its effects
regardless of any erroneous notions the minister may harbor concerning the essential or non-essential character of this or that part of the form. It may happen among us that a learned and faithful priest is in doubt as to what is essential in the matter or form of a Sacrament. Nevertheless, he administers the Sacrament validly if he has the right intention and conscientiously performs the prescribed rite from beginning to end. Though
the Greeks may in the best of faith go on erroneously maintaining that they consecrate exclusively by the Epiklesis, nevertheless, as in the case of the Latins, they actually consecrate by means of the words of institution contained in their liturgies, provided, of course, that they really intend to celebrate Mass, of which as a rule there can be no reasonable doubt. Only in the imaginary supposition that a schismatic priest were so filled with hatred against Rome that he would rather not consecrate at all than consecrate by means of the words of institution, should we be justified in concluding that there was a
lack of genuine intention and that, consequently, the Mass was invalid.
As an addendum, I finally note that the formula of Intention which the priest recites in the sacristy “Ego volo” is the same in both the TLM/EF and the NO/OF

As to bells, yes they are optional for the NO. But if you look, for the TLM, the rubrics for ringing the bell only make reference to a low Mass, not a sing or high Mass, though it was common to ring the bell for High Mass also, and eventually in the early 20th century, sanctioned by the Congregation of Rites.
  1. Veneration of the Saints:
    The prayers of the traditional Mass frequently invoke the saints by name and beg their intercession. The Church’s veneration of the saints in her worship was another practice which anti-Christ protestant heretics dismissed as “superstition.” The New Order of the Mass dropped most invocations of the saints by name, or made them optional. In the new Missal, moreover, the weekday prayers for saints’ feast days (most of which are also optional) have been rewritten for the benefit of protestant heretics – allusions to miracles, the defense of the Catholic Faith, or to the Catholic Church as the one, true Church have disappeared.
That’s a highly subjective statement. For example, the miracles…if IRC, Fr. Cekedas tract making reference to that used for example, the idea that the miracle of raising Lazarus was omitted form the collect for Mary Magdalene. Actually it was not omitted because of the miracle but to avoid identification of Mary Magdalene as the same Mary as the sister of Lazarus. The NO actually provides an entire preface on the miracle of raising Lazarus. One can go through the collects and find examples to demolish various claims. For example, see St. Peter Canisius “Lord, you gave St. Peter Canisius wisdom and courage to defend the Catholic faith…… “. So much for collects of saints not mentioning it.

As for the vision of Marie-Julie Jahenny, one can very easily apply it to the problems of the Church with the secular governments of Europe at the time with their own “national” churches particularly in France, Italy and Germany
 
I call it what it is, one bad priest who needs to get taken behind the wood shed and have the Holy Spirit teach him a couple of lessons.
Yes, but one might wonder why the bishops who are placed ot “govern the Church of God” aren’t already doing so. …
 
No. I was raised with the TLM. Went to a TLM recently and now I know why they developed the NO. I prefer the NO because I feel that I participate more and understand more. It is just my preference. Of course I do miss the bells, kneeling at communion and no EMHC. Maybe they can modify the NO a little to bring back more reverence towards the Eucharist which is lacking in certain parishes.
 
I was curious, is it is the hope of anyone here eventually have the Church totally revert back to pre-Vatican II liturgies, eventually eliminating the newer form of the Mass.
##** In no way :eek: . The reformed Missal enriches the Mass by not relying on purely Roman liturgical texts (the scientific study of the Liturgy did not really begin till some time after Trent was finished), & restores some important emphases the old one lacks: a weakness of the older is that it is not difficult to imagine that the congregation is present by co-incidence - rather than being the local part of the Body of Christ gathered together as that body to worship God. This latter point is made beautifully clear in the reformed Missal. There is also the doctrinal point that the 1962 Missal does not (so it would seem) fully reflect the Catholic teaching on the doctrine of the Sacrament of Order, which was amplified by Vatican 2. ****The revised Confiteor ISTM improves on the older, as it includes a confession of sins of omission. **

**I think the process by which the Pope has gained authority over the Liturgy of the Roman Rite ****generally is deplorable, but probably irreversible - the zealous defence of the Ambrosian Liturgy against a 15th-century Pope (who backed down - the episode is discussed by Michael Davies in more than one one of his books) seems much more healthy than the idea that Catholics should in effect be spoon-fed by an omnicompetent Papacy. **

**If the faithful have no involvement in the Liturgy, as something that should be of importance to them, what wonder is it if they don’t bother with it, to the extent of not bothering to turn up to it ? Another side-effect of the growth of Papal power over it, has been a one-sided emphasis on teaching, to the neglect of fostering a compensating & equally necessary emphasis on the Liturgy. As a result, ****doctrinally orthodox Catholics have often been heterodox in their liturgical praxis 😦 - recent Popes included 😦 😦 But one needs both orthodoxy & orthopraxis. The Orthodox don’t have this mental schism, & that may be part of their attraction to people on this board. **

**That may seem off the the topic, but it is ****relevant, as the Liturgy the Church uses in worship is never going to be healthy if Catholics have no reason to be actively interested in its health; & the arrangements in the Church favour a lack of active interest. A Papacy that tries to do everything, leaves nothing for anyone else to be bothered ****with ****- the problems of the Liturgy are related to what the ****Papacy has become 😦 **
 
I for one hope this never happens. I believe there is room in our Church for both. What people fail to recognize is that mass in the vernacular all over the world is a great help in evangelizing, especially in less developed nations where education is not as good as we are blessed to have. It is an immense help in evangelization for the people to understand what is going on. I am not saying that TLM does not have a place in the Church. What I am saying is that the Novus Ordo also has a place in the Church. Lets look beyond our noses and see this in a world perspective rather than in just our own little cocoon.
Prayers and Blessings
Deacon Ed B
Amen Deacon Ed. I grew up during the 60’s (High School in the 70’s) and feel the pendulum has definitely swung back from those very liberal days. I believe we our righting ourselves back. I am not bashing those that like the TLM, but there are many communities (mine included) where it would be very unfamiliar and would probably drive away more of the faithful than it would attract. There needs to be a balance, but the N.O. Mass can be every bit as inspiring and sacred as TLMs.

This would lead me to another question, is the TLM a cultural or geographic thing? I am just not seeing it as an issue where I live…
 
the N.O. Mass can be every bit as inspiring and sacred as TLMs.

This would lead me to another question, is the TLM a cultural or geographic thing? I am just not seeing it as an issue where I live…
Just two thoughts. 1. The Novus Ordo is, not can be, as inspiring. Each being the mass, each is equally efficacious in its merit. Do not let anyone tell you otherwise. 2. I do not see it as a problem in my Archdiocese. The vast majority here are comfortable with the Novus Ordo and feel that if some want to go to a Latin Mass, then let them. But I truly believe, from my experience in the area I serve that it is not an issue as great as the “Latin Mass” affectionados would have us believe.

I personally prefer the Novus Ordo, but have no ill feelings about those who love the Latin mass in having it also. I just wish they would feel the same way about us.
Prayers and Blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
It is found on the Motu Propio Update #8 on Youtube.
The talk is separated into 12 parts. The Motu Proprio was actually better than Fellay thought.

The Sory is in the first minute

youtube.com/watch?v=OislOHWCzYw&feature=related
Heresay by any other name is still worthless. I seriousle doubt that if Pope Benedict wishes to say something it will be through an unfaithful channel like Fellay. Like he doesn’t have an agenda!
:rolleyes:
 
Just two thoughts. 1. The Novus Ordo is, not can be, as inspiring. Each being the mass, each is equally efficacious in its merit. Do not let anyone tell you otherwise. 2. I do not see it as a problem in my Archdiocese. The vast majority here are comfortable with the Novus Ordo and feel that if some want to go to a Latin Mass, then let them. But I truly believe, from my experience in the area I serve that it is not an issue as great as the “Latin Mass” affectionados would have us believe.

I personally prefer the Novus Ordo, but have no ill feelings about those who love the Latin mass in having it also. I just wish they would feel the same way about us.
Prayers and Blessings
Deacon Ed B
I could not have said it better…Thanks
 
You left out the assassinations of great American figures and the uproar over the new birth control pill, but it is a strange coincidence, isn’t it?

Or maybe things were the other way around, that those other events caused the spirit of Vatican II to be misguided.
Good points…
 
Spiller,
The Stats tell the story. If the New Mass was to be the renewal and springtime that eveyone expected, shouldn’t the Churches be packed and the seminaries full of priests? Mass attendance should have gone higher, we would’ve been bursting with priests and building more Churches.

We are merging Churches, closing many of them down all over the country, and priestless parishes keep tripling.

Lex Orandi Lex Credendi. How the Church prays, the Church believes. The New Mass has been a nightmare and the Church has collapsed as people have fled since VII and the new Mass. We are not bulding more Churches as many thought, when they said the New Mass would attract the Protestants, but closing them.
No they don’t. And that’s not simply a matter of my opinion versus your own. You cannot accurately make the comments you have based on the numbers you provided. As it is, your conclusion is pre-conceived and it’s based on your personal opinion and not the numbers…
 
Do you really believe this silly nonsense? Honestly, do you? If you do, then you would have to concede the Church (including the Pope and the rest of the magisterium) allows it – as it takes place – at least in your mind.

So if the Church (and not just isolated bishops or priests) is capable of making such a horrid and prolonged mistake in your eyes, why on Earth would you remain a Catholic Christian?!?
Believe me, there is some that do believe this lie. I have ran into it myself. They believe if they say it enough times, it will become true.

BTW: I read some other things on the “site” that was quoted. Their main page under “Caution” is real telling on their position and reduces their credibility to zero.
 
Years from now there will be a small demand for the new Mass and it will be attended by small populations of aging baby boomers and Gen. Xers, remnants of a sad and lost generations who will not be revelant after their cultural revolution collapses.
That’s a very arrogant and immature statement, and your stats earlier are suspect. They may be true (I’m sure they are), but the NO mass may be one of MANY reasons why vocations and attendance are down. We really need to take a step back and help one another be better catholics, and leave the in-fighting to the 30,000+ protestant denominations.
 
When considering the Motu Proprio, Cardinal Arinze told Pope Benedict that the requirement for a stable group and the TLM should be 100 people, Pope Benedict told Arinze to “shut up” and said that in a few years, there wouldn’t be 100 people at the new Mass…
You’re simply lying now. You should be deeply ashamed for saying the Pope actually said that.
 
I think saint Raphael just lost all credibility with this one.
Deacon Ed B
 
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