Would you maintain sexual intimacy with a spouse addicted to porn?

[Sugabee43]

I said that I would feel more betrayed by overspending than by porn addiction. Not equating the two.

In the event of an affair I can understand separating from a spouse or deciding to stay together and forgive. What I would have a hard time understanding is deciding to stay together and then deny sex for an undefined period of time. That’s not what forgiveness looks like.

What I hear you saying to ME; to me, because I am in this situation, is that overspending is just as “bad” as a porn addiction (it’s not), and that a porn addiction is not the same as an affair. And it IS THE SAME- they both are adultery.
If my spouse continues to be unfaithful but I don’t want to divorce, then I should just be quiet and do my marital duty? I’ve tried that already. I’ve forgiven him over and over, but that doesn’t mean I allow myself to be sexually used.

 

[Xantippe]

You keep painting it as an act of punishment when we are clearly saying that it is about the loss of respect and the difficulty it is to be intimate with someone who you no longer respect. If the behaviour were to cease and the work to be done by the husband, the respect could be restored.

Also, there’s potentially the problem of the marital sexual relationship turning into (or feeling like) an extension of the porn habit.

If the husband is bringing porny thoughts and porny attitudes into the marital bedroom, then it could have the effect of killing off a more wholesome marital sexuality.

 

[Burt_Macklin]

You keep painting it as an act of punishment when we are clearly saying that it is about the loss of respect and the difficulty it is to be intimate with someone who you no longer respect. If the behaviour were to cease and the work to be done by the husband, the respect could be restored.

A punishment would be preferable as it would have a definitive ending date. What you have instead is one spouse now holding the unilateral power to decide if and when there is ever a return to normal married life.

 

[Sugabee43]

A punishment would be preferable as it would have a definitive ending date. What you have instead is one spouse now holding the unilateral power to decide if and when there is ever a return to normal married life.

You keep saying that like it’s up to the wife to just decide to “put out” happily despite what the husband’s doing on the side. Women don’t work that way, dude.

 

[Xantippe]

A punishment would be preferable as it would have a definitive ending date. What you have instead is one spouse now holding the unilateral power to decide if and when there is ever a return to normal married life.

Well, that is the question–is a “normal married life” even possible with a person with a largely corrupted sexuality?

At least with adultery, the sexuality itself need not be qualitatively altered (they could be natural acts just with the wrong person), but with pornography, the acts themselves are (more often than not) corrupt and corrupting.

 

[LongingSoul]

A punishment would be preferable as it would have a definitive ending date. What you have instead is one spouse now holding the unilateral power to decide if and when there is ever a return to normal married life.

Do you really not care how diminished and used a woman feels in this situation?

 

[Xantippe]

A punishment would be preferable as it would have a definitive ending date. What you have instead is one spouse now holding the unilateral power to decide if and when there is ever a return to normal married life.

That’s generally the case when there has been a major breech of sexual fidelity in a marital relationship–it is up to the sinned-against spouse to decide when and whether they can safely resume a physical relationship with the erring spouse.

 

[pensmama87]

A punishment would be preferable as it would have a definitive ending date. What you have instead is one spouse now holding the unilateral power to decide if and when there is ever a return to normal married life.

I will concede that this can happen, and it is wrong for the spouse to use their hurt in that way. It is manipulative and cruel to do that, to hold it over the spouse’s head and beat them with it like a stick.

But that’s not what I’m talking about. I would try very hard to not do that.

And addicts who seek recovery, especially in 12-step groups, should come across the idea that they cannot control how others respond to their addictions and the hurt that they’ve caused. They can earnestly seek reconciliation and forgiveness, but they have no right to demand it. I would work very hard to offer it, but if my husband said he was repentant and then started pushing me to give in to him and be intimate before I was ready, it would actually be a signal to me that he was not actually contrite yet and did not understand the magnitude of the hurt he had caused.

 

[Sugabee43]

And addicts who seek recovery, especially in 12-step groups, should come across the idea that they cannot control how others respond to their addictions and the hurt that they’ve caused. They can earnestly seek reconciliation and forgiveness, but they have no right to demand it. I would work very hard to offer it, but if my husband said he was repentant and then started pushing me to give in to him and be intimate before I was ready, it would actually be a signal to me that he was not actually contrite yet and did not understand the magnitude of the hurt he had caused.

And this has also happened in my marriage- a repentance of sorts occurred, but I was pushed too soon, and then shamed for not “forgiving” him fast enough.

 

[Xantippe]

And addicts who seek recovery, especially in 12-step groups, should come across the idea that they cannot control how others respond to their addictions and the hurt that they’ve caused. They can earnestly seek reconciliation and forgiveness, but they have no right to demand it. I would work very hard to offer it, but if my husband said he was repentant and then started pushing me to give in to him and be intimate before I was ready, it would actually be a signal to me that he was not actually contrite yet and did not understand the magnitude of the hurt he had caused.

Right.

A porn addict doesn’t get to dictate how hurt his wife gets to be.

 

[Trident_H]

I said that I would feel more betrayed by overspending than by porn addiction. Not equating the two.

In the event of an affair I can understand separating from a spouse or deciding to stay together and forgive. What I would have a hard time understanding is deciding to stay together and then deny sex for an undefined period of time. That’s not what forgiveness looks like.

I think what I’ve learned in this thread is that women see the emotional side of this. While guys are still pretty focused on the physical. On the emotional end of things you can’t just force things. You’ve got to feel them. And if you don’t then you are in a sort of living hell. I’d never thought of it that way before. I mean I was all focused on the physical need of the thing. Not the emotional bonding part. That never showed up to me. I was always a bit like, well a guy needs this a lot. Instead I’m now trying to think of what a woman needs a lot of. I don’t know. I guess it’s hard because it’s sort of a double negative. I mean a guy doesn’t want to push too much. He doesn’t want to ask as often as he’d really want to. So instead he thinks he’s doing his wife a favor by taking care of things on his own until she’s ready to have him again. But now I’m learning that that act of taking care of things on his own means that the guy is now sort of showing that his wife is a bit of a means to an end. At least that’s how women would see it. And that would just make it harder to be with him than before. Sort of a vicious cycle.

But I mean I don’t think that’s really the whole story either. I mean for guys there is this real and persistent physical pressure. It builds up. And so, yes, the optimal for the guy is to use that along with his natural affection for his wife to bring them both together in a sort of give and take sort of way. But at the same time he’s going to want to do that a lot more than the woman.

I mean I remember when I was first married I used to have such warm thoughts for my wife. I used to just feel the love. And that love made me desire her. It made me want to hold her close. And of course that made me want to go further physically. It was a progression. But the thing is, I used to feel that way daily. I would sort of go through my day with this slow build-up. That led to this desire. That led to this expectation of release. And then you know what happened, right? Of course you do. Four days out of seven were off-limits for different reasons. So that sort of messed up my routine. I mean there were good reasons for these days not working out. It wasn’t her fault. But for me, it was such a disappointment.

So of course I did the right thing about it, right? No. No I didn’t. And what did I do from then? As the days got fewer and further between? I just slowly trained myself to not think of her with so much affection. I just sort of trained myself not to reach out to hug her as often. I figured out that touching her led me to want to progress so I stopped. And of course she felt less loved. So she probably felt like I was using her more than before. Even though the frequency was lower. So yeah. I sort of understand the dynamic here. But I mean I had always only understood it from my point of view. Now I’m sort of realizing why she acted the way that she did. It wasn’t her fault.

But now I really don’t know what the solution is. Because it doesn’t seem like a guy can usually be on the level that a woman wants just like a woman can’t respond on the level that a guy wants. And I mean even give and take on that score still leaves them pretty far apart. And any forcing things really doesn’t work for either side.

I don’t know. I guess I’m not going to really figure this out in the next sentence so I should probably just quit here. This is long enough anyway.

Peace.

-Trident

 

[TK421]

I will concede that this can happen, and it is wrong for the spouse to use their hurt in that way. It is manipulative and cruel to do that, to hold it over the spouse’s head and beat them with it like a stick.

But that’s not what I’m talking about. I would try very hard to not do that.

And addicts who seek recovery, especially in 12-step groups, should come across the idea that they cannot control how others respond to their addictions and the hurt that they’ve caused. They can earnestly seek reconciliation and forgiveness, but they have no right to demand it. I would work very hard to offer it, but if my husband said he was repentant and then started pushing me to give in to him and be intimate before I was ready, it would actually be a signal to me that he was not actually contrite yet and did not understand the magnitude of the hurt he had caused.

Or, my way of looking at it: because when you’re contrite and it’s really hit you that you’ve done something wicked, your instinct is to accept whatever comes your way, instead of starting up negotiations.

I suppose my only stipulation here is that there may eventually be an indeterminate point where it appears there is a gridlock, no sign of restoration in sight, and no functional marriage anymore. In other words: if it seems like the relationship has been nuked to atoms with your wife, you might as well start living in another house instead of disgusting her with your presence, like an unhygienic step-uncle that’s moved into your driveway with his RV.

 

[Xantippe]

Or, my way of looking at it: because when you’re contrite and it’s really hit you that you’ve done something wicked, your instinct is to accept whatever comes your way, instead of starting up negotiations.

I suppose my only stipulation here is that there may eventually be an indeterminate point where it appears there is a gridlock, and no functional marriage anymore. In other words: if it seems like you’ve irreparably nuked your relationship to atoms with your wife, you might as well start living in another house instead of disgusting her with your presence, like a step-uncle that’s moved into your driveway with his RV.

I agree with your first paragraph.

With the second, don’t forget the kids. They presumably would prefer a pair of civil, cooperative parents not having sex and living under the same roof, rather than a pair of civil, cooperative parents that live in different households.

As long as a couple is doing counseling, support groups, and doing whatever work they’ve been assigned in counseling or support groups, I wouldn’t give up hope.

 

[LongingSoul]

Or, my way of looking at it: because when you’re contrite and it’s really hit you that you’ve done something wicked, your instinct is to accept whatever comes your way, instead of starting up negotiations.

I suppose my only stipulation here is that there may eventually be an indeterminate point where it appears there is a gridlock, and no functional marriage anymore. In other words: if it seems like you’ve irreparably nuked your relationship to atoms with your wife, you might as well start living in another house instead of disgusting her with your presence, like a step-uncle that’s moved into your driveway with his RV.

That’s not the reality for a person who successfully navigates addiction treatments and 12 step programs. They don’t continue in the thought patterns that are essentially those of an immature child who can only think in terms of ‘what I’m entitled to’. The ability to feel for others who’ve been hurt by addict behaviours… makes a person see how selfish and unjust they’ve been for so long that they haven’t appreciated the graciousness of others who’ve persevered with them. They move beyond that tit for tat mentality and develop gratitude for those who are still there waiting and hoping for the ‘dawn’.

It’s that attitude of gratitude and empathy for those around them that marks the transition away from the addiction.

 

[TK421]

That’s not the reality for a person who successfully navigates addiction treatments and 12 step programs. They don’t continue in the thought patterns that are essentially those of an immature child who can only think in terms of ‘what I’m entitled to’. The ability to feel for others who’ve been hurt by addict behaviours… makes a person see how selfish and unjust they’ve been for so long that they haven’t appreciated the graciousness of others who’ve persevered with them. They move beyond that tit for tat mentality and develop gratitude for those who are still there waiting and hoping for the ‘dawn’.

It’s that attitude of gratitude and empathy for those around them that marks the transition away from the addiction.

Ok that’s fine. You didn’t read what I wrote though.

I said a relationship where there is no sign of any hope of restoration + forgiveness, not:

The ability to feel for others who’ve been hurt by addict behaviours… makes a person see how selfish and unjust they’ve been for so long that they haven’t appreciated the graciousness of others who’ve persevered with them.

This isn’t about the 12-step program, or the 5.25 step program, or the 4 steps and 2 skips program. It could be an addictive behavior, or a one-time event, or something in between. I’ve attempted several times to widen this thread from exclusively the pornographic addiction aspect, and into broader concepts, but I haven’t been successful. I’m talking about any scenario where a grave sexual offense has been committed, and the other partner is not “persevering” with them in some sort of recovery process.There’s nothing from them. It’s a standstill relationship where it appears the goodwill is indeterminately dead. Headshot. Coup de grace. Not, “I need time”. Or, “we need to work this out”. Or, “we need counseling”.

I suppose there is the factor that if there are children, you would want to maintain civility, but I guess that depends on how obvious or severe the rift is. If it’s perfectly obvious that one or both members don’t actually love each other, the idea of “staying together” becomes moot and you’re not fooling anybody anyway. In other words: the damage is already done to the kids. I feel like a separation might be the best option at that point if the offended might eventually be stirred, versus having the person constantly around and reigniting thoughts of bitterness.

Since I’m obviously not going to get away from the subject of “the 12 step program”, does it include advice on what to do where there is an indefinite impasse on restoration?

 

[Eliza10]

pensmama specifically said not as a punishment in her last sentence. It is one of the hardest things to do to have sex with a spouse who you are turned off by. For the most part, in some part of the marriage women consent to sex from obligation and generosity, but when you are turned off by the spouse, it’s a very hard road. A porn addict is a real turn off to most women. It would be like for a man having to have sex with a woman who repulsed you.

Mostly women want sex with their spouse to reflect their high regard for each other. Many wives I’ve spoken to in my years of companioning work, feel like prostitutes in their sex life. It is really soul destroying for them.

I had my own pain and struggles in a long marriage the church has now deemed “never was”. But not this one. I hope its not cruel to say that I am SO GLAD this was not my struggle. I can only imagine the pain a woman feels. A man who goes this way does not know what marital love is supposed to be. He is really messed up.

His wife needs a LOT of grace to live with this. But the good thing is, the more grace you need, the more God will give you.

I do know that even *this *mess can be healed, but you cannot rush it. The man needs to truly repent, and seek full healing from our Lord, and truly our Lord Jesus can make a man’s heart whole. From the damage he did himself by going this way, and from the damage that was there probably since childhood that influenced him to go the way he certainly knew somewhere in his heart was WRONG. For a TRULY repentant man who seeks God’s ways and desires obedience to His will, I think this healing and being made whole and new by the grace of God can happen pretty quickly. If one is not of that mind and will, it could certainly take a long time, and a lot of work, but there is good Catholic counsel for this to be sure. One can not assume they will (or there spouse) get the easy quick road to healing; and get on the road. Also I think if both are determined to learn to seek God’s will it can happen faster. If it is meant to be, that is. Some broken people don’t want to be fixed…

 

[Eliza10]

I said that I would feel more betrayed by overspending than by porn addiction.

Thats messed up, Burt. So are your ideas that Pensmama87 was talking about “grounding,” and “serving a sentence.” I can only think it comes from not having a real understanding of how beautiful Catholic marriage is supposed to be. So completely different from porn.

In the event of an affair I can understand separating from a spouse or deciding to stay together and forgive. What I would have a hard time understanding is deciding to stay together and then deny sex for an undefined period of time. That’s not what forgiveness looks like.

Staying together while abstaining from intimacy because there is hope for healing and for repair of the marriage bond likely has something to do with the normal result of sexual intimacy in marriage - - children. Choosing to do whats best for your children instead of whats comfortable for the self is what love and commitment is… If the parents can find a way to live together in peace while they work this out, then it sure is the best thing for the kids to have both parents around, and not do the two-home shuffle (which in some cases is a necessary evil)…

 

[pensmama87]

Or, my way of looking at it: because when you’re contrite and it’s really hit you that you’ve done something wicked, your instinct is to accept whatever comes your way, instead of starting up negotiations.

I suppose my only stipulation here is that there may eventually be an indeterminate point where it appears there is a gridlock, no sign of restoration in sight, and no functional marriage anymore. In other words: if it seems like the relationship has been nuked to atoms with your wife, you might as well start living in another house instead of disgusting her with your presence, like an unhygienic step-uncle that’s moved into your driveway with his RV.

It’s not about negotiations. It’s about trust.

I’ve repeatedly mentioned working on the marriage by other means. Extended abstinence does not necessarily equal non functional marriage. It could actually be part of a marriage learning to function better.

I would also respectfully submit that the above sounds like addict talk. Again, simply abstaining is not enough for genuine recovery.

 

[Allegra]

A punishment would be preferable as it would have a definitive ending date. What you have instead is one spouse now holding the unilateral power to decide if and when there is ever a return to normal married life.

It may be preferable for someone who doesn’t want to do the work to regain his wife’s trust and restore the marital bond. For someone who is committed to the marriage, who is truly repentant for hurting his wife, and who wants his wife to feel happy, loved, and secure in the marriage, it’s not going to be such a problem. Of course, if your more concerned about a spending spree than adultery, maybe you aren’t that guy. Let the punishment fit the crime. Instead of grounding your wife from sex, ground her from the checking account.

 

[alphawoman]

Guys, abstinence in the face of porn addiction ISN’T PUNISHMENT doled out by the loyal spouse! It’s the natural emotional toll of betrayal and an opportunity for the addicted spouse to overcome the addiction, to learn the REAL meaning of sexual intimacy, and to learn how not to abuse himself and others.

If you lent your car to a friend who subsequently totalled it under a DUI and continued to drive under the influence thereafter, how eagerly would you lend your new vehicle to him? What if he had injured (or worse!) a passenger or bystander? What would the police do? Take him to a car dealership en route from the wine store? No way!

If you value a pile of metal so highly, then imagine how much more important it is to preserve the well-being of the minds and souls of the self and others in the face of adultery. There is collateral damage to the wife, children, family unit, Church, and society from infidelity.

Similarly, if someone repeatedly insulted you, spit in your face, or ridiculed you, how strong would your incentive be to want to talk to them? When you treat people badly, they don’t want your company.