Would YOU marry anyone who has a history of sex abuse - as the perp?

[ClearWater]

Inspired by the topics about Josh Duggar and the leaked report regarding allegations that he molested numerous girls as a teenager, most of whom were his own sisters.

The reaction has been quite mixed, but many are expressing support for Josh and stating that the Christian response is to take him at a word he has repented, and to forgive him.

The story also states that Josh did disclose his history to his now-wife Anna, and she married him anyway.

Well, you could argue that if we REALLY are to forgive we are to behave like priests in the confessional, that we essentially treat the sinner as if the sin never happened. (I have heard, for example, that if an accountant who worked for the parish confessed embezzling funds, that the priest can NOT use that information to justify firing the accountant.)

So, would you be comfortable, marrying someone who had a history of such behavior?

Well, with regards to sin, it’s my understanding Catholicism says to forgive the sinner, but that doesn’t mean there won’t be other consequences.

For instance, when John Paul II had the attempt on his life, the Pope visited the one who tried to kill him, in jail, forgave, and embraced him. HOWEVER, this does NOT necessarily mean that we can, or should, act like this never happened, let this man out of jail.

Do you see the difference? We need to be careful about what forgiveness is, and is not. If a woman is beaten up regularly by her husband, she needs to forgive him but protect herself and her children.

With marrying someone with a history of sexual abuse like that, it would be hard.

 

[Allegra]

No, and forgiving someone for something doesn’t require considering them for marriage. A person who is given to these sorts of crimes has issues. They may be genuinely repentant, but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t at risk for repeating the behavior.

 

[Sarcelle]

*Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

“No one, sir,” she said.

"Then neither do I condemn you,"Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”*

(John 8:10-12)

---

That’s Christ’s response to repentant child molesters. Is it yours? “No I would not…” is a long way from “Then neither do I condemn you.”

Not condemning someone does not mean marrying them.

 

[silver_moon]

Personally, no I would not be able to marry someone who sexually abused children in the past.

In THIS case: The minimizing language “mistake,” view of the situation as regrettable rather than crimes, and seeming lack of empathy for the victims would just strengthen my opinion. Finally there is the issue of multiple assaults over a months/a year or so.

I still think as I said before that someone like that could be repentant and safe in the future if they did the work to improve. According to RAINN, the rape abuse and incest national network, sometimes juvenile sex offenders repeat their crimes in adulthood and sometimes they don’t.

yahoo.com/health/the-worst-part-of-josh-duggars-child-molestation-119612235172.html

Jennifer Marsh, vice president of victim services at the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network (RAINN), tells Yahoo Health that while some juvenile sex offenders continue their patterns of abuse throughout their lives and others do not, the long-term effects on children who have been molested by their siblings has “a lot to do with the factors and terms of whether [the abuse] was disclosed, how the person [to whom the abuse was disclosed] reacted, and whether the victim feels they received support from their loved ones and family” in response to the disclosure of their abuse.

In some ways I view neglect as worse than abuse. Abuse can be repented, but neglect of the victims is much harder for me to excuse. And I hear little to no concern for the victims from any of the Duggars including Josh.

 

[UbiCaritas]

You are correct in that a priest cannot use what he heard in the confessional to influence his actions outside the confessional. The priest is acting in the person of Jesus Christ and the secrecy of the confessional is sacred and he is bound by that.

The analogy to how you and I are to behave is not an accurate one but that’s just my opinion. You and I are not priests and are not hearing confessions. When a priest forgives someone he is acting in the person of Jesus literally. It is God forgiving the sins, not the priest.

You and I are commanded to forgive each other, but forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing. People have shown acts of forgiveness such as forgiving someone who murdered their loved ones, however that does not obligate them to invite the murderer over for dinner. Forgiveness does not obligate you to an ongoing relationship, it is good therefore to prayerfully discern when ongoing relationships are just not possible. This could be with people who are alcoholics, abusers, have a tendency towards violence and other things that in many ways tend to be chronic. If you forgive someone you are obligated to do so kindly, but you are not obligated to prove your have forgiven someone by actively pursuing an ongoing relationship. Not sure if you will agree but there is my two cents for what it’s worth.

Exactly.

Also, bear in mind that in Catholic teaching there are consequences for sin, even confessed sins. This is different from most Protestant teaching. We believe that many people will go to Purgatory after they die in order to expiate the marks of sin on their souls. They’ll still go to Heaven, but they have to go through punishment and cleansing first.

Actions have consequences. That doesn’t mean that we don’t forgive wrongdoers, but it also doesn’t mean that wrongdoers have no consequences for what they’ve done. There’s a question of atonement and amends. In the case of a child molester, that may in part mean that they don’t get married/have their own kids/be in a committed relationship.

 

[Mark86]

In the case of a child molester, that may in part mean that they don’t get married/have their own kids/be in a committed relationship.

Who’s going to have a former [repented and reformed] child molester in any kind of relationship/friendship, committed or otherwise? Not only is the fellow not getting married, he’s certainly not going to have any friends the rest of his life. He probably won’t even be allowed into a Catholic Church legally because of the proximity to children. He’ll basically be a shut-in if he wants to receive Communion. His life becomes one long cause of scandal. Sin really does have consequences, yes. This particular sin ruins entire lives to that point that repent or not, reform or not, it makes no earthly difference. It’s not like anyone is going to trust him again with anything. As they say, "once a thief, always a thief.’

The only reason he would have for repenting of this sin would be to try to get back in touch with God, since nothing he’s going to do will ever repair his reputation with his fellow creatures. Repent or not, he’ll die alone and feared and hated.

 

[EasterJoy]

The question is not whether someone has a serious sin in his past. The question is whether he is someone a reasonable person would put into such a position of trust. You trust your spouse with your life and the life of your children.

Whether past offenses show someone lacks capacity necessary for a position of trust depends on the nature of the offense and the evidence of amendment. Offenses against children have an extremely high recidivism rate. The likelihood that the person lacks the capacity for a mature relationship necessary for marriage is also not very good. You have a duty to seek an attempt at marriage a prudent person would believe valid.

That is a tall order in most such cases. It is not impossible, but I don’t believe the decision ought to be made without excellent reason to believe you are marrying responsibly, in view of the harm that will be done if you are wrong and put this fellow in a near occasion of sin that is beyond him. It would be a wrong to go in with nothing to support your decision except stupid optimism.

 

[EasterJoy]

Short answer: unless there was a legal miscarriage of justice in his convictions, the Church would not ordain him and I would not marry him. The rate of re-offense is far too high for these offenses. I would not shun him, but neither would I marry him.

 

[kptrs]

No, mine is to hush the child to safety. I am able to defend myself, an innocent five year girl isn’t and shouldn’t be posed to that threat.

There are things we can forgive, but there are things we cannot risk. The sanctity of childhood innocence is one of them. I cannot see how the Lord could condemn us for protecting his most innocent helpless creations.

What we have to remember is that forgiveness doesn’t mean trusting a person or allowing a person to continue to harm you or others. You forgive but never forget. You have to remember what the person did so you don’t let them do harm to you or anyone else again.

 

[kptrs]

The question is not whether someone has a serious sin in his past. The question is whether he is someone a reasonable person would put into such a position of trust. You trust your spouse with your life and the life of your children.

Whether past offenses show someone lacks capacity necessary for a position of trust depends on the nature of the offense and the evidence of amendment. Offenses against children have an extremely high recidivism rate. The likelihood that the person lacks the capacity for a mature relationship necessary for marriage is also not very good. You have a duty to seek an attempt at marriage a prudent person would believe valid.

That is a tall order in most such cases. It is not impossible, but I don’t believe the decision ought to be made without excellent reason to believe you are marrying responsibly, in view of the harm that will be done if you are wrong and put this fellow in a near occasion of sin that is beyond him. It would be a wrong to go in with nothing to support your decision except stupid optimism.

Yes, yes, yes!!!

 

[kptrs]

Short answer: unless there was a legal miscarriage of justice in his convictions, the Church would not ordain him and I would not marry him. The rate of re-offense is far too high for these offenses. I would not shun him, but neither would I marry him.

And yes!!!

 

[UbiCaritas]

Who’s going to have a former [repented and reformed] child molester in any kind of relationship/friendship, committed or otherwise? Not only is the fellow not getting married, he’s certainly not going to have any friends the rest of his life. He probably won’t even be allowed into a Catholic Church legally because of the proximity to children. He’ll basically be a shut-in if he wants to receive Communion. His life becomes one long cause of scandal. Sin really does have consequences, yes. This particular sin ruins entire lives to that point that repent or not, reform or not, it makes no earthly difference. It’s not like anyone is going to trust him again with anything. As they say, "once a thief, always a thief.’

The only reason he would have for repenting of this sin would be to try to get back in touch with God, since nothing he’s going to do will ever repair his reputation with his fellow creatures. Repent or not, he’ll die alone and feared and hated.

I don’t know. I’ve known one child molester who repented of his crimes and didn’t, to the best of anyone’s knowledge, commit them again after having done so on one occasion some twenty years before I knew him. I’ve since lost touch with him, as he lives in another part of the world. However, if we lived closer to him, I would still be his friend…with boundaries. I wouldn’t have him over to the house because DH and I have a kid. If we didn’t, though, I’d certainly have him to dinner. Meeting him somewhere public I’d be okay with, though I wouldn’t want him to know DD.

What he did was inexcusable, and I need to protect my daughter first and foremost. While I really don’t think he’d reoffend, he would be the first person to agree that it would be beyond unreasonable for him to expect to spend time with my DD. I still pray for him. At least when I knew him, he was still a devout and humble Catholic. I hope that someday he’ll be a saint, in the “he got to Heaven” sense of the word. As we all should, I suspect he’s doing some of his Purgatory here on earth.

The rate of recidivism in child molesters is very high. I’ve heard good things about small faith-based communities for male pedophiles who have served their jail time. The idea behind these communities is that a) they genuinely do not want to offend again, b) they need support and friendship, as we all do, and c) they help each other by forming these communities, usually in an area outside of a town and far away from children, and with the assistance of a minister of some kind who will deal with grocery shopping and the like, almost a monastic community. From what I hear, those communities have much lower recidivism rates, though of course they’re a bit self-selecting to begin with because they’re comprised of men who don’t want to re-offend, rather than those just looking for an opportunity to do so.

I am terribly sorry you went through what you did. I hope that you find that peace “which passeth all understanding.” God bless you.

 

[Cake_or_Death]

What we have to remember is that forgiveness doesn’t mean trusting a person or allowing a person to continue to harm you or others. You forgive but never forget. You have to remember what the person did so you don’t let them do harm to you or anyone else again.

Exactly, this is my concern. It is one thing to forgive, it’s another to hand them back the gun.

 

[Lessofme91]

Personally, no way in the world. While obviously no one know what really happened in the Dugger household, what really creeps me out about this specific case with Josh and his marriage is that based on the families dating rules for their children, Anna NEVER would have had any unchaperoned time or communication with Josh before they were married. So while she knew that he had had issues…she never got a chance to see what he was like when they were alone. SCARY!

This whole thing is so sad.

 

[Allegra]

Personally, no way in the world. While obviously no one know what really happened in the Dugger household, what really creeps me out about this specific case with Josh and his marriage is that based on the families dating rules for their children, Anna NEVER would have had any unchaperoned time or communication with Josh before they were married. So while she knew that he had had issues…she never got a chance to see what he was like when they were alone. SCARY!

This whole thing is so sad.

Regardless of what his family or wife claim now, I find it highly unlikely that the fact that he had molested little girls as a teenager was disclosed to his wife or her family prior to marriage or courtship. As these people’s livelihood is entirely dependent on their public perception, their credibility on that sort of thing ought to be taken with a grain of salt. Although, in this case, the claim that the wife knew she was marrying an allegedly reformed pervert makes her seem even crazier to me.

 

[TK421]

Context means everything. Personally, my answer would be no way, but that’s because I - and probably everybody else in this thread - haven’t been exposed to the life that some people have.

But, let’s look at a cultural background like South Africa, where rape is such a common thing. So many gangs of boys - including teenage or even junior high boys - rape girls, that the shock value of rape has become “inflated”. Neither the boys nor the girls necessarily view it with the same intensely negative degree that a Westerner would. A girl could be raped, and several years later marry a guy. A guy with a damaged background as a teenage boy could be a rapist, and years later, marry a girl and live a semi-normal life. The standards of sexual ethics are so withered and so grievously compromised that these occurrences wouldn’t be such an extraordinary thing. You’re a South African with a history of sexual abuse, either as a perp or a victim? Join the crowd of several million other people.

(Mind you, I’m not going out of my way to pick on South Africa. Western immorality tends to be “cleaner” on the surface and comes in the form of serial divorcing and an overabundance of fruitless marriages that aren’t actually marriages at all. The population decreases as the depression and loneliness increases)

Even in Western countries, as college rape climbs, we also see an inflation towards the shock value of rape. Or another way of putting it: a certain level of numbness towards it, the same way that a soldier eventually becomes somewhat numb towards the atrocities he witnesses. In a drunken party, you have morally apathetic drunk guys that climb on top of morally apathetic unconscious drunk women and rape them. Fast forward several years, and both the perpetrator and the victim are invisible in the crowd, living normal lives. Although terrible, this simply doesn’t have the same degree of shock value in society as other examples of sexual abuse would.

 

[TK421]

How many of these men actually wander into the fold of the Catholic Church, and pursue an orthodox Catholic life, and seek to marry a good Catholic woman? It’s hard to say but the amount doesn’t sound at all promising. In places like Nigeria you might witness a good amount of 180s, where you literally have boys that go from being rapist gangsters to Catholic fathers and husbands over the span of 10 years. It is a harsh road, and since the women themselves are exposed and surrounded by the culture, they would far more easily accept and adapt to that than other women would be able to. Some of these boys that eventually become rapists are indoctrinated and exposed to a life of sexuality immorality before they go to kindergarten/primary school (if they even reliably go to school). They might eventually adopt a lifestyle that surpasses the one that they were brought into, and marry a somewhat decent woman, but without outside support, I don’t see much more than that happening.

This is why Christianity is at its core a missionary religion. It understands, as Jesus does, that mankind is incapable of pulling himself up from the life of sin by his own power. Outside intervention is required, both natural intervention from fellow mankind, and supernatural intervention from God. A society that adopts a philosophy of “live and let live” has signed its own death warrant, because morality cannot be sustained without radical support from each other and from God.

 

[QuestLove]

How many of these men actually wander into the fold of the Catholic Church, and pursue an orthodox Catholic life, and seek to marry a good Catholic woman? It’s hard to say but the amount doesn’t sound at all promising. In places like Nigeria you might witness a good amount of 180s, where you literally have boys that go from being rapist gangsters to Catholic fathers and husbands over the span of 10 years. It is a harsh road, and since the women themselves are exposed and surrounded by the culture, they would far more easily accept and adapt to that than other women would be able to. Some of these boys that eventually become rapists are indoctrinated and exposed to a life of sexuality immorality before they go to kindergarten/primary school (if they even reliably go to school). They might eventually adopt a lifestyle that surpasses the one that they were brought into, and marry a somewhat decent woman, but without outside support, I don’t see much more than that happening.

This is why Christianity is at its core a missionary religion. It understands, as Jesus does, that mankind is incapable of pulling himself up from the life of sin by his own power. Outside intervention is required, both natural intervention from fellow mankind, and supernatural intervention from God. A society that adopts a philosophy of “live and let live” has signed its own death warrant, because morality cannot be sustained without radical support from each other and from God.

This brought back an anecdote a friend told me. Her father is a minister/pastor in Botswana. Now just as you have you described men come back into the church after many years living a reckless lifestyle. And of course, now these truly repentant young men are ready to settle down with a “nice”, chaste young lady to marry. When they would present themselves for marriage counselling, her father would counsel them both to get an HIV test. Of course, members of the church got upset, thought he was “bringing up the past” and “where was his faith in God?”. But as he said, we are christians not fools. We should have all the information before we walk in to something as serious as a marriage.

I know there are christians out there who are equipped to handle these types of marriages. I have read about christians and know personally christians who marry people with SS attraction, admitted past as a child molester, HIV positive people etc. with the full knowledge of these challenges before going into the marriage. I do admire their strength. I honestly don’t think I could do it.

 

[ToeInTheWater]

Personally, no way in the world. While obviously no one know what really happened in the Dugger household, what really creeps me out about this specific case with Josh and his marriage is that based on the families dating rules for their children, Anna NEVER would have had any unchaperoned time or communication with Josh before they were married. So while she knew that he had had issues…she never got a chance to see what he was like when they were alone. SCARY!

This whole thing is so sad.

This is the dark side of the heavily supervised courtship movement. It can easily be used by parents who have something to hide regarding the suitability of their children as spouses, to get them married off without the prospective spouses ever knowing about the skeletons in their closets. This happens often in fully arranged marriages as well.

Allegra, while we’ll never know what really happened, what I suspect is that Josh did tell Anna about “inappropriate behavior” but did not tell the whole story. I do hope whatever version he told her didn’t go as far as to actually blame the victims and make it out as if they were complicit in their abuse. However, from what I’ve read about the usual approach the Gothard movement takes to such issues, I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the case, sadly enough.

TK421, I think there is a BIG difference between an adult making an informed decision to take a risk to marry someone who has committed sexual offenses or crimes against adults, and one taking a risk to marry someone who has offended against CHILDREN. Adults have the capacity to make risky decisions and risk harm to themselves. A woman who marries a man who has committed rape against adult women, takes a risk herself, but is walking in to the situation with her eyes wide open.

This is NOT the case for children. They depend on adults, especially children, to protect them. They especially depend on their PARENTS to protect them. I really cannot imagine myself ever putting children at risk in their own home. How can I marry a man who I cannot trust to leave alone with his own children?

Now, there are cases in which people are found guilty of statutory rape in “borderline” cases involving post-pubescent adolescents. That is about the only case I can think of where I might make an exception. But I’d have to have a LOT of evidence that the relationship was truly consensual despite the age and power difference.

 

[TK421]

@ToeInTheWater:

I am not frowning upon the women here who wouldn’t marry a man with a history of sexual abuse, let alone sexual abuse towards children. I can’t picture myself doing it either (I’m a man, but same concept).

But, I wanted to widen the scope on the topic of sexual abuse, since this topic doesn’t get the fresh air that it ought to get. There is a gargantuan difference between an unformed, unguided African gangster boy that raped a girl with a crowd of boys when he was 16, and a 48-year-old man in America that preys on young children. In the later scenario it seems practically inconceivable for him to ever be in married life. Setting aside the more gruesome examples though, sexual abusers can and do become successful fathers & husbands, especially in the less developed world. Do these men marry middle class Western women? Probably not, but for every man in the world with a deranged and screwed up youth, there’s probably a woman with a roughly similar educational & spiritually impoverished background that is willing to have him for her husband. She doesn’t have a lot of options, and neither does the man .Unsurprisingly, they end up with each other.