Would you rather die than lie?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Alma
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

Alma

Guest
I just read the amazing story of Franz Jaegerstaetter, a Catholic man who refused to join the Nazi army and was sent to death. His family, his friends and many priests adviced him to sign the paper accepting to serve in the Nazi military service, they told him it was worse to leave his family alone, but he said God would take care of his family, and he did not sign. He died on the same day Edith Stein died.
You can read his moving story here:

justpeace.org/franz.htm

Meanwhile I would like to ask you, would you rather die than lie?

:blessyou:

Alma
 
Dear friend

This man is a Saint. God granted him a special grace in order to embrace martyrdom and if need be I would hope and pray God would do the same for me. No I would not lie nor compromise the Gospel to save my life. I am not living to save my earthly life, I am living to save my soul, therefore I would hope to lose my earthly life in order to save my soul.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
I think that lying is permissible under certain circumstances.

Would I lie if it meant denyng the Faith to save my life? No, at least I hope I would have the courage not to.

But if I were hiding, for example, the Frank family, and the SS came to the door asking if they were in my house? Yes, absolutely I would lie. The difference is that you have the right to defend life AND the SS man has no right to the truth. When Pius XII was hiding Jews in the convents, etc, what do you think the sisters told the Nazis who were searching for the Italian Jews?
 
I use Franzs story every year as I teach RCIA…It is very inspiring! Anyone that thinks any lie is a sin I believe has not really thought a lot about it. I agree with a former post …I would not give up Anne Frank to avoid a lie, first of all what makes a moral absolutist think that anyone who asks would have a have a right to that information? The Gustipo sure didn’t …and on a lighter note…suppose you were asked if you wanted the last piece of pie and you knew that someone else would enjoy it…How mad do you think God is by your saying you don’t want it?
mike
 
In self defense, I would do anything I thought might be effective, including lie.

And if I got away with it, I would thank the Lord for seeing me through.

I don’t see what good I’m going to do to serve other men by getting myself killed when I don’t have to. If I can save my life with a lie, then I have beaten the liar at his own game.

Sorry folks but I place my life more valuable than any verbage I spew to some pathetic jerk who’s going to shoot me based on whether I deny God. I do not have power of life and death, but if I can use my tongue to save my life I will.

I cannot relate my sentiments at all to the saint mentioned in this thread, because I have no idea about the whole Nazi thing, except for maybe what I saw in The Sound Of Music.

Alan
 
Please read the thread at:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=64202

Be careful not to get into proportionalism which is a heresy:
ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=431889&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2005&Author=&Keyword=proportionalism&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=4&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=439459&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2005&Author=&Keyword=proportionalism&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=3&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

newadvent.org/library/docs_jp02vs.htm

A lie itself intrinsically evil. It cannot be justified by a good intention.
CCC (1753 and 1754):
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a4.htm

You are NOT bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it (CCC 2849):
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a8.htm

You may use a mental reservation when there is good reason:
newadvent.org/cathen/10195b.htm
 
40.png
AlanFromWichita:
Sorry folks but I place my life more valuable than any verbage I spew to some pathetic jerk who’s going to shoot me based on whether I deny God. I do not have power of life and death, but if I can use my tongue to save my life I will.
Click to expand...
I don’t know, Alan, which life do you value more?

Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.

Think about Rachel Scott, the girl who the Cloumbine killers targeted because she was a Christian. She was at school, and these two guys start spraying the place with bullets. She was probably terrified, don’t you think? Then they found her, and put a gun to her head and asked her if she believed in God. Do you think she was scared after that? Do you think she considered lying? She knew which life she valued, and she said yes to God.
 
40.png
dulcissima:
I don’t know, Alan, which life do you value more?

Matthew 16:25
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.
Click to expand...
I probably value pro-life for myself at least as much as any pro-lifer values the life of an innocent unborn baby. If we are to simply “fritter away” our worldly life to whomever wishes to take it because of some allegiance to “not lie” to them, as if that’s going to preserve our life in heaven, they why the big deal about abortion, which takes the childrens’ worldly lives away but practically ensures sainthood for them, as innocent as humans can be?
Think about Rachel Scott, the girl who the Cloumbine killers targeted because she was a Christian. She was at school, and these two guys start spraying the place with bullets. She was probably terrified, don’t you think? Then they found her, and put a gun to her head and asked her if she believed in God. Do you think she was scared after that? Do you think she considered lying? She knew which life she valued, and she said yes to God.
Click to expand...
I thought her name was Cassie, but that’s OK. When that book “She Said Yes” was popular, I happened to sit on a committee giving money for library requests for books, and that was one of them.

Something sounded very fishy about the story, and so I asked further research be done. Plus, the whole idea was to make her a Modern Day Martyr, and it even came with materials for study as I recall. The events described by All Who Were Entranced by that story just didn’t fit the scenario, and even at that there were some “what ifs” that you really have to have answered before you know if her alleged confession was really an act of faith.

Turns out it is more likely that the only eyewitness who survived that shooting, fabricated that exchange to console the dead girl’s father, to whom such faith demonstrated by his daughter was comforting. I don’t begrudge them the book deal, but just because a dear girl was a victim doesn’t make her a martyr.

Besides, if I thought that person was going to shoot if she said “yes” and would not if she said “no” then by golly I would have wanted her to say “no” so she lives at least a couple more minutes and maybe she and her friend could have jumped the guy. Personally it doesn’t make sense that we ostensibly care about Human Life but we think that people with guns in our faces have a right to know what we “really think” about anything to the extent that we boldly give them the excuse they’re looking for to kill us. Some might consider that rather absurd.

Alan
 
There’s a couple of things that may be preventing people from accepting the fact that lying can’t be justified.
  1. Denial of the fact that lying is an intrinsic evil. If you don’t believe this, please read over:
    catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=68&art_id=26918
    scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a4.htm
    scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a8.htm
    newadvent.org/cathen/09469a.htm
  2. The belief that people who say lying can’t be justified think you are bound to tell the truth to someone who has no right to know it or stay silent. CCC #2489 says that you are not bound to tell the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it. Also, you may use a mental reservation if you have good reason rather than staying silent:
    newadvent.org/cathen/10195b.htm
  3. The belief that a person who commits horrible acts no longer has the inherent dignity of a human person. This is contray to the fifth commandment:
    scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm
  4. The belief that respect for the life of the body is an absolute value. Please read CCC# 2289.
  5. Lack of faith that God’s will is the right thing to do. By sinning to bring about a good intention, we are basically saying that we believe that we know better than God what is the right thing to do. I recently read a post on the EWTN message board which basically said “Well, what I’m doing might be wrong and may end up in purgatory for a while but if I save one sould because of it it’ll be worth it.” I doubt the poster realized it but this is horribly prideful and lack’s faith in God. God alone knows what is best. We cannot do something other than the will of God and expect to end up with a result better than the result of doing God’s will.
 
Lying is acceptable when it will endanger other lives to tell the truth. For instance, a soldier who is taken POW is asked where the rest of the troops are. Do you think the soldier should give up this information? Also, there were also good reasons above why lying isn’t always wrong.
 
Lying is acceptable when it will endanger other lives to tell the truth.

A lie itself is intrinsically evil. It cannot be justified by a good intention. CCC (1753 and 1754):
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a4.htm

Please also read my above posts.
 
Sometimes lying may be the best and most charitable way to go.

When former NYC mayor Kock was asked about lying, he said, he sometimes lied to employees who were about to be fires or laid off. He felt it was more charitable to lie and not hurt their feelings rather than tell them they were incompetent, poor workers, or not necessary.

Also, someone who is terminally ill or fatally wounded may be told otherwise so they can have hope and be more encouraged to fight on.
 
40.png
AlanFromWichita:
In self defense, I would do anything I thought might be effective, including lie.

And if I got away with it, I would thank the Lord for seeing me through.

I don’t see what good I’m going to do to serve other men and women by getting myself killed when I don’t have to. If I can save my life with a lie, then I have beaten the liar at his/her own game.

Sorry folks but I place my life more valuable than any verbage I spew to some pathetic jerk who’s going to shoot me based on whether I deny God. I do not have power of life and death, but if I can use my tongue to save my life I will.

I cannot relate my sentiments at all to the saint mentioned in this thread, because I have no idea about the whole Nazi thing, except for maybe what I saw in The Sound Of Music.

Alan
Click to expand...
They’re just tests for your faith. Besides, Nazis don’t exist no more. But seriously, a lie is like eating peanuts–one just ain’t bloody 'nuff.
 
40.png
777:
They’re just tests for your faith. Besides, Nazis don’t exist no more.
Click to expand...
There might not be anymore Nazi’s, but that doesn’t mean the world is now void of lunatics. So I guess the family that hid Anne Frank should have told the truth and let the Nazi’s get a hold of her instead of trying to protect them.

Let me ask you a question 777: Do you think the nuns that hid Jews in Italy from the Nazi’s had to lie to protect them? If they did, which I would be willing to put money on, do you think they sinned?
 
I understand that lying is never acceptable, but a mental reservation is if the person is not entitled to the truth in a certain situation. My question is on how to apply that to a real-life situation. For example, if I was hiding Jews and a Nazi knocked on my door and asked if I was hiding any Jews, to say “no” would be a lie, but to say “I can’t answer that question” would, in practical terms, amount to admitting that I was hiding them. What could I say that would both not be a lie and not give away too much?
 
Grace and Glory:
I understand that lying is never acceptable, but a mental reservation is if the person is not entitled to the truth in a certain situation. My question is on how to apply that to a real-life situation. For example, if I was hiding Jews and a Nazi knocked on my door and asked if I was hiding any Jews, to say “no” would be a lie, but to say “I can’t answer that question” would, in practical terms, amount to admitting that I was hiding them. What could I say that would both not be a lie and not give away too much?
Click to expand...
The clear intent here is to deceive. That is what we intend to do. We know what the Nazis want to know. We can choose to either give them that information or not. Whether we throw them off the track with our clever “Clintonesque” true words or just plain out lied, there is no difference.

When we know exactly what the question is, and we send them away knowing that they have inferred the wrong answer to that question, and we think that lying is always wrong, then we have a problem. We have knowingly and intentionally deceived, and we should call out after them as they leave and clarify that there Really Are Jews hiding here. IOW, if you’re at the door, and they want to know, then by gosh and by golly you owe them that information. Clever wording to “throw them off the scent” to be sounds more diabolical than just a plain bald-faced lie.

Mental reservation, whatever the Church calls it, she acknowledges apparently (have not read all references yet) that you do not deserve to tell bad people the truth. The whole concept is ridiculous.

Now what if a woman stops and asks where the office of Dr. Tiller is (the infamous elective late term abortionist) in Wichita? What if you say, turn left at the next intersection, and it’s on the left right next to Kellogg Avenue. There are guards at the clinic and before she enters the property she need to stop at the house just south of the clinic to check in prior to her appointment?

You’ve told her the exact truth, in your opinion. You definitely think she “should” check in at the house next door, because it is actually a pro-life clinic though telling her “she should check in there before her appointment” may have falsely led her to believe the place next door was actually run by Tiller.

Or would it be more moral to tell her, it’s right next to Kellogg Avenue, just let the guards know you’re there for an appointment and they’ll let you in.

Either way, you’ve told her a truth but she has believed a lie, or she wouldn’t have an appointment at Tiller’s in the first place.

The rest of it is all word games.

Alan
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top