Would you rather die than lie?

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That footnote is not in the NAB, but what is your point? Tobit asks who he is, not who he is impersonating.
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First off, I’d caution against doing extensive exegesis without some guide and without knowing what the original text said and intended. Secondly, do you honestly believe that one of the purposes of that section of the Bible is to convey that lying is alright in certain situations?
Raphael takes the form of Azarius, but he is still Raphael.
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If I had a twin brother named Ron and I was named Ron to would I lie to someone if I said I was Ron? If Raphael is help of God son of the great grace of God then is he lying saying that he’s Azarias son the the great Ananias?
BTW, I thank you for the link to the Douay-Rheims
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You might rather:
drbo.org/
If you draw a gun on someone, you’re doing it with the intent to kill them.
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If you drop the crystal dishware in my example are you doing it with the intent to break them or are you permitting their breakage so you don’t fall down the stairs? If you are merely permitting (and not intending) the dishware to break in my example then why can’t you shoot someone in self defense without intending (only permitting) their death?
 
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AlanFromWichita:
She died. Shot in the face.

According to the story, her friend told the dead girl’s father that just before being shot, the shooter asked her if she believed in God. The answer came quickly, “yes,” and bang, that shot came quickly too.

Alan
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Would she be a saint based on that?
 
Well, hypotheticals are great until a squad of armed soldiers are standing in your doorway. You lie and get away with it…
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If it’s a hypothetical situation than why assume that lying will work? If a nazi is suspicious that you are hiding jews then why think they’ll just take your word that you’re not?
Chances are that if you kill someone else in self-defense, you pretty much intended it. If you draw a gun on someone, you’re doing it with the intent to kill them.
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Let me try to show that an action can have two effects, one intended, one unintended (but permitted):

Chances are that if you [are sore after exercise], you pretty much intended it. If you [exercise], you’re doing it with the intent to [be sore]. Does this make sense? Does someone exercise with the intention of being sore? Or is being sore merely permitted by that person so that he may receive the health benefits from exercise? If someone intends to be sore after exercise then why would he take pain medication?

Other examples:

Medication taken that causes side effects; the good effect of the medication is intended, the side effects are unintended yet permitted.
Checking blood sugar levels if you have diabetes; the result of the test is intended, the pain from testing is unintended yet permitted.
Shaving; removal of the hair is intended, cuts are permitted but unintended.
Taking out the trash; the removal of trash is intended, the smell of old garbage is permitted but unintended.
etc.
Raphael takes the form of Azarius, but he is still Raphael. This is similar to a policeman who is undercover, if the policeman is in the form of a drug dealer, then is he lying when he says he is not a policeman?
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I haven’t read the book of Tobit but want to point something out. I’m pretty sure that angel’s “names” refer to what they do not who they are.
Also, if Raphael’s intent was to deceive Tobias by taking the apperance of Azarius then why would Tobias have to ask Raphael who he was? If Tobias didn’t know what Azarius looked like then how could Raphael have deceived him by appearing as Azarius? Did it really matter what Raphael looked like?

catholic-forum.com/saints/saintr02.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/12640b.htm

When Raphael said he was “Azarious” was he help from God? When Raphael revealed himself as “Raphael” was he God’s remedy? Are the names Raphael gave pointing to who he is or are they pointing to what his function was?
 
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Fitz:
Would she be a saint based on that?
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She became very famous almost overnight, and was called a martyr based on that. To me it smelled like opportunists who immediately got these people a book deal and sold it while everybody was still in shock. Celebrity endorsement – as in Michael W. Smith afterword and everything.

There were spinoffs and workshops and everything that popped up out nowhere from it.

The book I did not purchase with parent funds was, “She said Yes: The Unlikely Martyrdom of Cassie Bernall.”

See, I thought it was Cassie and not Rachel. That might have been another story. Anyway, the story I heard about was about Cassie.

OK. Here’s one about Rachel Smith called “Rachel’s Tears: The Spiritual Journey of Columbine Martyr Rachel Scott.”

Geez, I get them all mixed up. I don’t know one from the other now. Anyway, apparently turned victimhood into martyrdom is one way to get to book sales. Anyway, at least one of them supposedly acted martyrly before they died, so now we have books about their spiritual journeys.

Maybe I should get my kids to keep some good memoirs so if something terrible ever happens to them we can quickly get it to press and have the most complete accounting of their spiritual journey among other victims who may beat me to market.

To repeat, I have nothing against these childrens’ families, and do not hold anything against them for profiting from their book deals, which cannot ever replace their children. That day, April 20, 1999 twelve children and one teacher died before the killers killed themselves. I just did not choose to jump on the bandwagon and add a questionable book for our Catholic school library when there were plenty others to use the money for.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...gh_School.jpg/180px-Columbine_High_School.jpg :crying:

Thank God their plans did not pan out. Notebooks from the killers showed their goal was to kill 500.

Alan
 
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AlanFromWichita:
Thank God their plans did not pan out. Notebooks from the killers showed their goal was to kill 500.

Alan
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hijack
it was one of the scariest days of my life. Even though our school was no where near Columbine, they made all of the schools in our county lock-down, and then all we heard were the radio reports coming in…my dad’s good friend’s son was hiding in the library, the place of the most masacre…even today, it’s so strange walking into that school for basketball games and stuff, nothing feels right about it there. I have images of Columbine plastered in my head forever, vivdi reports from the news coming in live, disturbing, and then Clement Park…huge park, completely covered in mounds of flowers, crosses, cards, everything…it was eery, unreal…and it still makes me sick to my stomach…everyday it seems like they keep bringing it up in the news, and we still hold a moment of silence on the anniversary at our school…but still, I believe God had a hand in saving as many lives as He could that day, even though He couldn’t stop them all…
 
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Alma:
I just read the amazing story of Franz Jaegerstaetter, a Catholic man who refused to join the Nazi army and was sent to death. His family, his friends and many priests adviced him to sign the paper accepting to serve in the Nazi military service, they told him it was worse to leave his family alone, but he said God would take care of his family, and he did not sign. He died on the same day Edith Stein died.
You can read his moving story here:

justpeace.org/franz.htm

Meanwhile I would like to ask you, would you rather die than lie?

Alma
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Just out of curiosity I checked to see if there were any patron saints for conscientious objectors. There is only one, St. Marcellus.

Memorial 30 October Profile Roman centurion at Tangier. During a celebration of the emperor’s birthday, Marcellus refused to participate in the pagan offering ceremony. He threw away his arms and armour, openly declared himself a Christian, and was condemned to death. The unit’s notary refused to record this incident and declared himself a Christian as well; he was Saint Cassian. Died martyred c.298 at Tangier Patronage conscientious objectors
You will note that he was condemned not for being a CO per se, but for refusing to participate in pagan rites and declaring himself a Christian.
 
In 1974 my high school was swept up in the forced busing violence in Boston and our hypocritical school teachers covered their paychecks and supported forced busing at the students expense - so while in the twelfth grade I swore I would never become a school teacher :mad:

In 1975 sick of the lies and misinformation regarding my neighborhood and forced busing told by Boston’s leading newspaper, the Boston Globe, I swore that I would never read or buy the Boston Globe ever again! :mad:

In 1986 neighborhood residents threw out their tenants or raised the rent 500% overnight in order to convert triple-deckers into condominiums and sell for big money (a $10,000 triple decker could be sold for $500,000+ in 1987 and over a million dollars today) - and I swore in 1986 that I would never ever step foot in a condominium! :mad:

So far to this day I have kept my word and would rather die than lie!
 
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Madia:
First off, I’d caution against doing extensive exegesis without some guide and without knowing what the original text said and intended. Secondly, do you honestly believe that one of the purposes of that section of the Bible is to convey that lying is alright in certain situations?
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First off, I’d caution the same for you. You are using a footnote to explain this issue away, obviously neither of us is reading this in the original Hebrew, maybe someone else could shed light on that… Secondly, I’m not possitive what it is trying to convey. Are there instances where lying is permissable? I suggest there could be. This verse does not definatively indicate your position, at least without more understanding of the original language, which apparently neither of us have…
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Madia:
If I had a twin brother named Ron and I was named Ron to would I lie to someone if I said I was Ron? If Raphael is help of God son of the great grace of God then is he lying saying that he’s Azarias son the the great Ananias?
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We both know that the name he gave was not the name he was known for. And certainly Raphael knew that Tobit would be mislead. Is St Raphael also St Azarias, or not. If Azarias is a real person, and Raphael was impersonating a real person, especially one known to Tobit, then he was lying. Or are we to assume that direct misleading is okay. If my name is John and Hans is a German form of John, then can I say I am Hans to get into a building that I don’t belong in, but Hans does?
 
Id lie to save someone elses life, but not my own. In fact, Id love a chance to die for God, in order to further glorify Him.

It doesnt bother me, in fact, i dont see why it should bother any catholic with a strong faith. This life is temporary.

🙂
 
Are there instances where lying is permissable? I suggest there could be. This verse does not definatively indicate your position, at least without more understanding of the original language, which apparently neither of us have…
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When someone’s exegesis contradicts Sacred Tradition or the Magisterium then it’s safe to assume that person’s exegesis is wrong. Saying that lying is permissable would contradict 1753 of the CCC which calls lying intrinsically disordered:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a4.htm
Is St Raphael also St Azarias, or not.
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Was the angel called Raphael both God’s remedy and help from God? The name of an angel denotes their function, not their nature. Thus, as we can change our titles as we change jobs, angel’s can change their “name”.

More on angels: newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm
 
What are we to learn from the story about the dishonest steward? He was rewarded for his shrewdness in dealing with people his own kind, using what was left of his power over his master’s money to buy “friends in low places” I suppose?

Why was he praised by the master? Is this not a lesson in using “sneaky” or “dishonest” means to an end?
Another one I can’t find now in the Bible, and I’m not sure it’s in there, is a passage where I thought some women had lied or even prostituted themselves or something (very sketchy memory on it) to distract and/or turn soldiers the wrong direction. I don’t know if they were looking for the wise men, Jesus, or what. I just remember hearing it but not enough about it to do a search on it. Does this sound even vaguely familiar to anyone? I really thought it was Biblical, and even New Testament but now I can’t find it. It wasn’t a dream, I’m pretty sure, but without evidence it might as well have been.

Alan
 
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Madia:
When someone’s exegesis contradicts Sacred Tradition or the Magisterium then it’s safe to assume that person’s exegesis is wrong. Saying that lying is permissable would contradict 1753 of the CCC which calls lying intrinsically disordered:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a4.htm
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I’m trying to work this out… A lie as defined by the catechism:
2482 “A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving.”
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2483 Lying is the most direct offense against the truth. To lie is to speak or act against the truth in order to lead someone into error.
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So in the definition of a lie, there must be the intention of deceiving AND the desire to lead someone into error. Do we do that when we tell a child about Santa Claus? Does putting your shoes out for St. Nicholas to fill? Does an undercover officer who tells a drug dealer/murderer he is trying to bust that he is not a cop do the following?
2486 Since it violates the virtue of truthfulness, a lie does real violence to another. It affects his ability to know, which is a condition of every judgment and decision. It contains the seed of discord and all consequent evils. Lying is destructive of society; it undermines trust among men and tears apart the fabric of social relationships.
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Madia:
Was the angel called Raphael both God’s remedy and help from God? The name of an angel denotes their function, not their nature. Thus, as we can change our titles as we change jobs, angel’s can change their “name”.

More on angels: newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm
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Okay, Tobias could be construed as a misdirection, not a lie, although it seems a little dodgy. He appeared as another person and gave his name as such. Your other link that suggested
In this event he only told the young Tobias that he was God’s helper and the offspring of the great goodness of God
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Doesn’t seem to completely go along with the actual translated text: Tobias 5:14
Tobit exclaimed: “Welcome! God save you, brother! Do not be provoked with me, brother, for wanting to learn the truth about your family. So it turns out that you are a kinsman, and from a noble and good line! I knew Hananiah and Nathaniah, the two sons of Shemaiah the elder; with me they used to make the pilgrimage to Jerusalem, where we would worship together. No, they did not stray from the right path; your kinsmen are good men. You are certainly of good lineage, and welcome!”
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Doesn’t quite jive. Tobias seems to believe he is a real person, so Rapheal is decieving, if nothing else. Maybe it is lost in translation… But Tobias seems to think that he learned the “truth” about his kinsman, implying that Raphael was of the earth and born with family ties to him…saying that he was “help from God” does not to me tie him to a kinsman…
 
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Madia:
If you drop the crystal dishware in my example are you doing it with the intent to break them or are you permitting their breakage so you don’t fall down the stairs? If you are merely permitting (and not intending) the dishware to break in my example then why can’t you shoot someone in self defense without intending (only permitting) their death?
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That is the silliest comparison I have ever heard. You don’t pull a gun in this world in self defense unless you are ready to kill somebody to preserve you life or someone else in danger.
 
That is the silliest comparison I have ever heard. You don’t pull a gun in this world in self defense unless you are ready to kill somebody to preserve you life or someone else in danger.
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If I have a disease that required that my arm be amputated so that I might live, do you think I intended my arm to be amputated or merely permitted it? Would the purpose of having my arm amputated be to amputate my arm and cure the disease or would the purpose be merely to cure the disease?
 
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Madia:
If I have a disease that required that my arm be amputated so that I might live, do you think I intended my arm to be amputated or merely permitted it? Would the purpose of having my arm amputated be to amputate my arm and cure the disease or would the purpose be merely to cure the disease?
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OK, I’ll bite. You amputate the arm as a concession, so the disease may be cured.

Is your point similar to that of the CCC in self-defense, that you may strike a blow or fire a shot that you know is likely to kill, but your intent is on self-preservation?

Also, you may not strike a lethal blow when you know something less would suffice, but in the heat of the moment you are not required to have thought out all the alternatives; therefore if you deliver a blow knowing it will be lethal, that is not necessarily a problem if that is the only option you see available. Again, so long as the intent was self-preservation one need not prove that lethal force was indeed necessary – just that it seemed necessary at the time.

At least that’s how I read it some time ago. Is that anything like what point you are making?

Alan
 
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Madia:
If I have a disease that required that my arm be amputated so that I might live, do you think I intended my arm to be amputated or merely permitted it? Would the purpose of having my arm amputated be to amputate my arm and cure the disease or would the purpose be merely to cure the disease?
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Again, you’re comparing apples to oranges. You’re over analyzing things. You can’t intend things you no control over.
 
Again, you’re comparing apples to oranges. You’re over analyzing things. You can’t intend things you [have] no control over.
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What about the hiker who amputated his own arm?
hike.mountainzone.com/2003/news/html/030502_amputate-arm.html

Now he had control over whether or not he amputated his arm. When he chose to amputate his arm, do you think he intended to amputate his arm or did he merely permit his arm to be amputated so that he could free himself?
Is your point similar to that of the CCC in self-defense, that you may strike a blow or fire a shot that you know is likely to kill, but your intent is on self-preservation?
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The evil effect can be forseen but it can’t be intended. One intends the good effect and permits the evil effect.
Also, you may not strike a lethal blow when you know something less would suffice, but in the heat of the moment you are not required to have thought out all the alternatives; therefore if you deliver a blow knowing it will be lethal, that is not necessarily a problem if that is the only option you see available. Again, so long as the intent was self-preservation one need not prove that lethal force was indeed necessary – just that it seemed necessary at the time.
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You might find the answer in the Summa:
newadvent.org/summa/306407.htm
 
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