Would you remain loyal to communion with Rome?

[mardukm]

I read a thread yesterday on another website regarding the liquidation of the Ukranian Catholic Church through the Lvov Sobor (I think that’s what it was called - correct me if I’m wrong). Apparently, what occurred was that the Soviet state gave the Ukranian Catholics only two options - become Latin Rite Catholics or become Ukranian Orthodox under the Moscow Patriarchate. Many Ukranians wanted to preserve their Traditions and became Orthodox.

Question1: Do Russian Orthodox seriously believe that the Ukranians who became Orthodox were not FORCED to become Orthodox?

Question2: When the Soviet Union fell, did a lot of Ukraniain Orthodox come back to the Catholic Church?

The topic of the poll - which is for ALL my non-Latin CATHOLIC brethren, is this:

If TODAY, you were in a country with a totalitarian regime which forced upon you a similar “choice,” (i.e., either remain loyal to Rome as a Latin Catholic, or prefer to preserve your Traditions in a Church controlled by a totalitarian regime), what would you do?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ConstantineTG]

It doesn’t even have to be this country. In another thread the idea was floated that a united Ukrainian Church will arise that is neither loyal to Rome or Moscow. My comment there is that if this does happen, then I will either go back to the RC or find another Byzantine parish in communion with Rome. I have grown to love the Ukrainian Church but I just cannot be out of communion with the Pope. If that was acceptable to me, I would have become Orthodox 2 years ago.

 

[Aramis]

Communion with Rome: It’s why I’m NOT Russian Orthodox!

I’ve felt a strong call to the Eastern Rites since high school. But I couldn’t break communion with Rome after timelining the gospel events, and noting that John 21 is after the granting of the keys to the 10 (Thomas had been absent, and Judas had hanged himself… 12-2=10).

 

[Little_Boy_Lost]

LOL. I gots to go with the most cowardly.

“Move out of country and Preserve faith and tradition.”

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I read a thread yesterday on another website regarding the liquidation of the Ukranian Catholic Church through the Lvov Sobor (I think that’s what it was called - correct me if I’m wrong). Apparently, what occurred was that the Soviet state gave the Ukranian Catholics only two options - become Latin Rite Catholics or become Ukranian Orthodox under the Moscow Patriarchate. Many Ukranians wanted to preserve their Traditions and became Orthodox.

Question1: Do Russian Orthodox seriously believe that the Ukranians who became Orthodox were not FORCED to become Orthodox?

Question2: When the Soviet Union fell, did a lot of Ukraniain Orthodox come back to the Catholic Church?

The topic of the poll - which is for ALL my non-Latin CATHOLIC brethren, is this:

If TODAY, you were in a country with a totalitarian regime which forced upon you a similar “choice,” (i.e., either remain loyal to Rome as a Latin Catholic, or prefer to preserve your Traditions in a Church controlled by a totalitarian regime), what would you do?

Blessings,
Marduk

Dear Brother Marduk,

In answer to your first question - the Russian Orthodox, for the most part, really do believe that those members of the UGCC who did become Orthodox in 1946 did so voluntarily. They still maintain that that “union council” was valid and that the Soviet police and regime had nothing to do with it, other than give it their tacit support.

In answer to your second question, Galicia in western Ukraine was staunchly Greek Catholic and nationalistic. The two go hand in hand. The same is true of Ukrainian Orthodoxy (and perhaps even moreso - the anti-Soviet underground was first developed in Orthodox Volyn). Galicia returned to Rome (I had two relatives who were Orthodox priests with doctorates from the Moscow Academy - they returned to the UGCC of their youth). The Moscow Patriarchate bemoans the fact that the most religious part of its former jurisdiction is now Greek Catholic (from where a lot of donations, vocations etc. to the Russian Orthodox Church formerly came from). But the MP still maintains that the Greek Catholic resurgence was the “fault” of external forces, including Vatican collusion etc.

In addition to your third matter, no I would never join such a state-controlled church of ANY stripe.

I would consider joining an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church under specific circumstances though . . .

Ukrainian Catholics, having survived totalitarian regimes and having emigrated to the West, have often joined autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdictions as a result of issues with Roman Catholic/Ukrainian Catholic clergy and bishops . . .

Alex

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

I’d probably do what, if I remember correctly, most of the Ukrainian Catholics did, go underground in order to maintain both my Eastern Catholic heritage and communion with Rome.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

I’d probably do what, if I remember correctly, most of the Ukrainian Catholics did, go underground in order to maintain both my Eastern Catholic heritage and communion with Rome.

That is certainly commendable!

We should also remember that UGCC members who were part of the ROC and even became ROC clergy were the ones who pushed the issue to return to Rome in the early 1990’s (and not the underground Church).

They waited for their moment and they acted. Their parishioners supported them. And thanks to them all, the UGCC is back in western Ukraine (even though Rome itself would limit its activities and influence).

Alex

 

[Phillip_Rolfes]

That is certainly commendable!

We should also remember that UGCC members who were part of the ROC and even became ROC clergy were the ones who pushed the issue to return to Rome in the early 1990’s (and not the underground Church).

They waited for their moment and they acted. Their parishioners supported them. And thanks to them all, the UGCC is back in western Ukraine (even though Rome itself would limit its activities and influence).

Alex

Wow. I did not realize that. Perhaps that would be the most pastorally responsible strategy. Did you happen to receive you prayer ropes yet?

 

[Madaglan]

I read a thread yesterday on another website regarding the liquidation of the Ukranian Catholic Church through the Lvov Sobor (I think that’s what it was called - correct me if I’m wrong). Apparently, what occurred was that the Soviet state gave the Ukranian Catholics only two options - become Latin Rite Catholics or become Ukranian Orthodox under the Moscow Patriarchate. Many Ukranians wanted to preserve their Traditions and became Orthodox.

Question1: Do Russian Orthodox seriously believe that the Ukranians who became Orthodox were not FORCED to become Orthodox?

Question2: When the Soviet Union fell, did a lot of Ukraniain Orthodox come back to the Catholic Church?

The topic of the poll - which is for ALL my non-Latin CATHOLIC brethren, is this:

If TODAY, you were in a country with a totalitarian regime which forced upon you a similar “choice,” (i.e., either remain loyal to Rome as a Latin Catholic, or prefer to preserve your Traditions in a Church controlled by a totalitarian regime), what would you do?

Blessings,
Marduk

If my memory serves me, something similiar happened to the Ruthenian Catholics in Slovakia: they were forced to become Russian Orthodox.

Question 1: I think it’s hard to say that they were not forced into becoming Orthodox. The greater percentage of parishes that became Orthodox returned to Eastern Catholicism when it became legal to do so.

Question 2: I would think that a lot of the Ukrainians that were formerly Eastern Catholic and became Orthodox under the communist regime returned to Eastern Catholicism when it became legal. I do not know the statistics, but this is the supposition of what I’ve read elsewhere.

 

[Madaglan]

Dear Brother Marduk,

In answer to your first question - the Russian Orthodox, for the most part, really do believe that those members of the UGCC who did become Orthodox in 1946 did so voluntarily. They still maintain that that “union council” was valid and that the Soviet police and regime had nothing to do with it, other than give it their tacit support.

In answer to your second question, Galicia in western Ukraine was staunchly Greek Catholic and nationalistic. The two go hand in hand. The same is true of Ukrainian Orthodoxy (and perhaps even moreso - the anti-Soviet underground was first developed in Orthodox Volyn). Galicia returned to Rome (I had two relatives who were Orthodox priests with doctorates from the Moscow Academy - they returned to the UGCC of their youth). The Moscow Patriarchate bemoans the fact that the most religious part of its former jurisdiction is now Greek Catholic (from where a lot of donations, vocations etc. to the Russian Orthodox Church formerly came from). But the MP still maintains that the Greek Catholic resurgence was the “fault” of external forces, including Vatican collusion etc.

In addition to your third matter, no I would never join such a state-controlled church of ANY stripe.

I would consider joining an independent Ukrainian Orthodox Church under specific circumstances though . . .

Ukrainian Catholics, having survived totalitarian regimes and having emigrated to the West, have often joined autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox jurisdictions as a result of issues with Roman Catholic/Ukrainian Catholic clergy and bishops . . .

Alex

Thanks for this informative post.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Thanks for this informative post.

I know I’ve turned off people here with my thoughts, but that is how I feel. I apologise to those I’ve offended, and will keep my big mouth shut.

Cheers,

Alex

 

[gmcbroom]

Hmmm…I voted to leave the country and keep the traditions. Why? Because, it’s one thing to come to a religion on ones own, being drawn to its Divine Liturgy and traditions whether its Orthodoxy or Catholism as both have valid sacraments and Apolostolic Succession only differing on the nature of leadership ie Primacy usually due to politics, etc. it’s quite another to be forced into a church against ones will. That would make it an intrinisically evil action and wrong no matter how well intended.

Since its the government making the demand over its citizens the government is in essence meddling in the churches business. This wasn’t good when King Henry the 8th did it, and it isn’t good now.

My prayers are with those that stay whether they move to Orthodoxy or stay Catholic. But, it’d be safer if the affected citizens left the country. God Bless them and keep them all. In Jesus name Amen.

Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Alex,

I know I’ve turned off people here with my thoughts, but that is how I feel. I apologise to those I’ve offended, and will keep my big mouth shut.

I’m not offended in the least, but I am puzzled. Just to clarify, are you saying you would rather join an underground Church not in communion with Rome, rather than an underground Church in communion with Rome?

Another question. My question (in the OP) was in regards to TODAY. Do you feel that TODAY, there are tensions that would cause Ukrainian Catholics to join EO’xy in the diaspora? If so, can you please explain?

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Dear brother Alex,

I’m not offended in the least, but I am puzzled. Just to clarify, are you saying you would rather join an underground Church not in communion with Rome, rather than an underground Church in communion with Rome?

Another question. My question (in the OP) was in regards to TODAY. Do you feel that TODAY, there are tensions that would cause Ukrainian Catholics to join EO’xy in the diaspora? If so, can you please explain?

Blessings,
Marduk

Dear Brother Marduk,

If I were to join an underground Church, then it would be one in communion with Rome (even if Rome didn’t give a hoot about its martyrs, confessors within the wider context of its political relations with the oppressor state/church - which seems to be the case with the UGCC).

With respect to your second query, tensions that cause Ukrainian Catholics to join the Ukrainian Orthodox Churches are often localized. I know of one case where a new bishop appointed by Rome was not well received by his flock and he certainly didn’t make matters easier for him. UGCC’ers did indeed, at that time (15 years ago or so) go over to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (EP). The Orthodox bishop even approached our new bishop and I overheard him asking, “What is going on in your Church that I’m getting so many people coming over from your flock?”

I know of UGCC priestly candidates who didn’t want to suffer any grief over their marriage prior to ordination and who “doxed” (one of these was a student of the bishop I mentioned above . . .).

I know that there are those in the UGCC who are openly wondering what is going on with Rome that the patriarchate is put on definite hold.

And many of these are not just “Orthodox in Communion with Rome” types (as our dear friend Seamus often makes the distinction between “OICWR” and Eastern Catholics ) .

There are now dyed in the wool Ukrainian Catholics (who have told me off for saying that Rome will never recognize a UGCC patriarchate) who feel that . . . I may be right, suffice it to say.

The old argument advanced by Rome against such recognition is that our bishops aren’t united around the idea (doesn’t obtain today) and that our Church isn’t ready . . . (that cannot be true given the development of our Church in the last twenty years since it came out of the catacombs).

Non-recognition of the UGCC patriarchate (which we believe already de facto exists) is taken by many in the UGCC (EC’s as well as the OICWR variety) as a real slap in the face.

This isn’t just from me . . .

And IF Rome was making ANY headway in its approaches to Moscow on the church unity front - then and only then can the argument be made - hold off on the UGCC.

Rome seems to be quite willing to sacrifice the UGCC only for the token promise of the MP for simple cooperation on various projects.

BIG DEAL! We can have the same cooperation with the Protestants and others!

So, my question is - does loyalty cut both ways?

What is the benefit of the UGCC remaining in communion with Rome at this time?

If Elder Rome and the Third Rome are shaking hands - why does the UGCC need to have anything to do with either?

Just asking . . .

Alex

 

[countertenor]

Dear Brother Marduk,

So, my question is - does loyalty cut both ways?

What is the benefit of the UGCC remaining in communion with Rome at this time?

If Elder Rome and the Third Rome are shaking hands - why does the UGCC need to have anything to do with either?

Just asking . . .

Alex

 

[Formosus]

If a state was forcing me to become Orthodox then I would probably externally appear orthodox while remaining ec in my heart. Perhaps that is the cowardly way out but I am going with what is realistic i guess…

With that said, if the ugcc freely choose to enter into communion with an Orthodox church and left the Roman communion, I would probably go with them.

 

[laszlo]

It doesn’t even have to be this country. In another thread the idea was floated that a united Ukrainian Church will arise that is neither loyal to Rome or Moscow. My comment there is that if this does happen, then I will either go back to the RC or find another Byzantine parish in communion with Rome. I have grown to love the Ukrainian Church but I just cannot be out of communion with the Pope. If that was acceptable to me, I would have become Orthodox 2 years ago.

I do not know how much do you know about the exact situation of the Catholic (Eastern or Roman) Churches in the Communist countries, where the majority was Orthodox. (Romania, and the Soviet Union) The Easter Catholics were ordered to join the Orthodox Church, all the priests who refused were imprisoned. The Roman Catholics (except for Transylvania were so few in number, that they did not counted. You had to travel hundreds of miles to find Roman Catholic community, and in the Soviet Union even the internal travel was strongly controlled. To leave the country was considered crime, if caught punished by several years of imprisonment.

So the real choice was join or being persecuted.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I do not know how much do you know about the exact situation of the Catholic (Eastern or Roman) Churches in the Communist countries, where the majority was Orthodox. (Romania, and the Soviet Union) The Easter Catholics were ordered to join the Orthodox Church, all the priests who refused were imprisoned. The Roman Catholics (except for Transylvania were so few in number, that they did not counted. You had to travel hundreds of miles to find Roman Catholic community, and in the Soviet Union even the internal travel was strongly controlled. To leave the country was considered crime, if caught punished by several years of imprisonment.

So the real choice was join or being persecuted.

I mean, the scenario I was talking about is if it happened in Ukraine and all the Ukrainian Church would fold into the Orthodox Church, including those in the diaspora where I am.

Of course, if such a scenario were to happen today, the Bishops of the diaspora may form a separate synod and remain with Rome. But we don’t know, maybe they’ll all follow the Patriarch. In such an event, I’ll just go back to being RC.

 

[smad0142]

The traditions, i.e. small t traditions like how the Mysteries/Sacraments are administered, of any of the particular Churches are man made traditions. The Papacy is given to us from God. I would remain in Communion with Rome regardless of the cost, which in this hypothetical means I would go the RC route.

 

[PennyinCanada]

I have to ask the question if the RC churches here are in communion with Rome themselves! From an Eastern perspective, I see they removed the kneelers, the statues, the stations, the Tabernacle put into the crying room, and the stone altar put outside to become the church sign. (It was placed vertically and the name of the parish carved into it) What Communism has failed to do, the parishes have taken on the task to do themselves. I am more concerned with the deconstruction of the church from within than without.

But that’s another topic.
Would I not go to the RC church. No. Sadly, no.