Would you sin to fulfil the last request of a stranger?

[jfallaw]

We are not talking about a kind deed, this is the last thing that could be done for a person before they die and face Judgment, then Heaven or Hell for eternity. It wouldn’t be kind of me to ignore that fact, would it? If someone wanted to drink something I knew was deadly poison but they didn’t, and they asked me to hand it to them, would it be a kind deed to give it to them in their ignorance? No.
As above, I do believe it will affect them one way or the other. For eternity.Who else would want to be baptised?

Or, other side of the coin, let’s say YOU lay dying, unbaptised but a believer in Christ. You ask a nonbeliever to baptise you and instead he spends the next few minutes of your life trying to convert you to Islam. How would you feel? Sure you have the baptism of desire, but who says your motives are right? I think the point of the baptism of desire is that, if a nonbeliever lived a good, moral life, inherently doing what was right in the eyes of God, and, through no fault of their own, were never told the Gospel, or honestly just couldn’t believe it as told by 20,000 different denominations (not so hard i might imagine), and they, were they to actually be presented the Truth, would have accepted Christ, then that constitutes the baptism of desire. I seem to remember that from the old Baltimore Catechism my Grampaw taught me from. So anyways, who is to say you are not desiring baptism out of a love for God and a desire to do His will and not simply out of a fear of Him and His just punishments? Who’s to say the baptism of desire would be granted in that case?

 

[jfallaw]

What is the basis for this?

I was taught from the old, pre-VII catechism, which explicitly stated that you could attend another Christian denominational service, but that if you actively participated, i.e. did as they did, sang their songs, prayed their prayers, it was a MORTAL SIN, because you were in effect denying the importance of your own Catholic faith. Unfortunately I have no copy of that catechism, nor have I found it online, or I would try to find it.

 

[latinmasslover]

Or, other side of the coin, let’s say YOU lay dying, unbaptised but a believer in Christ. You ask a nonbeliever to baptise you and instead he spends the next few minutes of your life trying to convert you to Islam. How would you feel? Sure you have the baptism of desire, but who says your motives are right? I think the point of the baptism of desire is that, if a nonbeliever lived a good, moral life, inherently doing what was right in the eyes of God, and, through no fault of their own, were never told the Gospel, or honestly just couldn’t believe it as told by 20,000 different denominations (not so hard i might imagine), and they, were they to actually be presented the Truth, would have accepted Christ, then that constitutes the baptism of desire. I seem to remember that from the old Baltimore Catechism my Grampaw taught me from. So anyways, who is to say you are not desiring baptism out of a love for God and a desire to do His will and not simply out of a fear of Him and His just punishments? Who’s to say the baptism of desire would be granted in that case?

I don’t think Eileen is saying that Baptism of desire is enough at that. One has to have the intention of being baptized as soon as possilbe. Baptism of desire assumes that the person has the intention of getting physically baptized.

 

[latinmasslover]

I was taught from the old, pre-VII catechism, which explicitly stated that you could attend another Christian denominational service, but that if you actively participated, i.e. did as they did, sang their songs, prayed their prayers, it was a MORTAL SIN, because you were in effect denying the importance of your own Catholic faith. Unfortunately I have no copy of that catechism, nor have I found it online, or I would try to find it.

Yes, how true and so overlooked these days. The papal encyclical Mortalium Animos discusses this same thing, and how truly sinful and uncharitable such a deed is.

 

[Linda_Marie]

There is no such thing as “baptism of desire.” While anyone at all can baptise (regardless of religious affiliation, or lack thereof), a person cannot baptise by intent alone. Baptism requires immersion, sprinkling, or pouring of water on the person to be baptised, according to the Church.

The thing about Baptism of Desire is that you have to die to receive it. You cannot be considered Baptised just because you want to be unless you have died before being able to receive the Sacrament. Even then, only God knows your heart, if your desire was genuine or just a passing fad. No, it is not so easily obtained.

In no case can a living person be considered to have a Baptism of Desire. They must receive the Sacrament.

I don’t think this discussion is about Baptising someone against their will, but about fulfilling a request by a dying person to perform a rite as important to them as Baptism is to us.

Do pagan religions teach that anyone can perform their rites in an emergency? What would be an equivalent for them?

Just what exactly would the Christian be expected to do for this hypothetical dying person?

 

[jfallaw]

The thing about Baptism of Desire is that you have to die to receive it. You cannot be considered Baptised just because you want to be unless you have died before being able to receive the Sacrament. Even then, only God knows your heart, if your desire was genuine or just a passing fad. No, it is not so easily obtained.

In no case can a living person be considered to have a Baptism of Desire. They must receive the Sacrament.

I don’t think this discussion is about Baptising someone against their will, but about fulfilling a request by a dying person to perform a rite as important to them as Baptism is to us.

Do pagan religions teach that anyone can perform their rites in an emergency? What would be an equivalent for them?

Just what exactly would the Christian be expected to do for this hypothetical dying person?

idk about what kind of act or rite. now if it were saying a prayer to their god, obviously i wouldn’t do it. but say it was something like our baptism, that the one performing needn’t believe in order for it to be ‘valid’.let’s just say it was a form of baptism; some other religions practice a kind of purifying ritual that might be similar. And no, it’s not about baptising against someone’s will; it’s if someone asked you to do it for them.

I just figure hey, this person is dying right in front of my eyes. There is no chance of that life being saved. I have two or three minutes and mine will be the last voice that person hears. Do I spend the time somehow trying to convert them to Catholicism, or do I try to provide as much comfort to the dying soul as possible, trusting God to justly judge that soul, but showing in those last minutes Christian compassion, which I honestly think will convert more people than any amount of preaching. So i decide to ‘baptise’ this person in the way prescribed by their religion. Let’s say it’s not an act which requires any belief on my part. But it is clearly not Christian. How will God judge me for that? Based upon my participation in that religious act, or based upon the Charity I show the dying?

 

[Leopard]

But it’s ok to be baptised by someone who believes it to be false?..

Correct. In an emergency in the absence of a bishop, priest or deacon, any person may validly baptize if that person uses the proper form and matter and intends to do what the Church does when she baptizes. It is not necessary that this person believes or agrees with the Church’s teaching on baptism.

 

[latinmasslover]

idk about what kind of act or rite. now if it were saying a prayer to their god, obviously i wouldn’t do it. but say it was something like our baptism, that the one performing needn’t believe in order for it to be ‘valid’.let’s just say it was a form of baptism; some other religions practice a kind of purifying ritual that might be similar. And no, it’s not about baptising against someone’s will; it’s if someone asked you to do it for them.

I just figure hey, this person is dying right in front of my eyes. There is no chance of that life being saved. I have two or three minutes and mine will be the last voice that person hears. Do I spend the time somehow trying to convert them to Catholicism, or do I try to provide as much comfort to the dying soul as possible, trusting God to justly judge that soul, but showing in those last minutes Christian compassion, which I honestly think will convert more people than any amount of preaching. So i decide to ‘baptise’ this person in the way prescribed by their religion. Let’s say it’s not an act which requires any belief on my part. But it is clearly not Christian. How will God judge me for that? Based upon my participation in that religious act, or based upon the Charity I show the dying?

Totally understand, but we still cannot do it. It’s a sin, and one cannot perform an act of charity that is a sin…it simply isn’t true Christian charity. Of course we shouldn’t “preach” to a dying non Catholic, but maybe share with them the message of Jesus, of His compassion and mercy, and that He never turns away someone who turns to Him with trust, especially when near death. Ask for the intercession of St. Dismas (the Good Thief).

 

[jfallaw]

hmm… well I certainly have alot to think about.

 

[CuriousInIL]

Does this extend to actions such as “Please move that statute where I can see it (assuming it has some religious significance)” or “Please read to me from this [religiously significant] book”?

 

[Kaninchen]

One of my nightmares would entail lying on my death bed with some Christian determined to share Jesus with me.

 

[jfallaw]

Does this extend to actions such as “Please move that statute where I can see it (assuming it has some religious significance)” or “Please read to me from this [religiously significant] book”?

Well, I guess. But the original question, on another post, was whether a non-Christian would baptise a Christian if asked. The church accepts that as valid even though they don’t have to believe they are doing anything significant for us. So the question was posed whether a Catholic would do the same for a non-Christian. Once again, there need be no belief that what you are doing is actually helping them at all, spiritually. But my stance is that it DOES help them by providing them comfort in their final hour. It is my belief that to do so (participate in whatever non-C practise) IS a sin, but I WOULD DO IT ANYWAY, because I believe that providing that Comfort is the most Christian thing I can do at that moment. And I don’t wanna hear that I should tell them about Jesus. They don’t want to hear it. I KNOW there is no way I will convert them in those final few minutes. And I know they have already heard about Jesus. I doubt there are more than a handful of people on this planet who haven’t, one way or another.I KNOW it would be right to tell them of Jesus, but I KNOW it would not HELP them at that particular point in time, does that make sense? I mean, I KNOW that if I was dying and wanted a non-C to baptise me, or pray the rosary with me, or whatever, the last thing I would want would be to hear them tell me all about Mohammed! It would make me miserable, just as telling them about Jesus would make them miserable. I guess the question is one of balance- is it right to do what is wrong if it helps that person and harms no other (except me, of course)? The Good Samaritan helped that poor soul without trying to convert him to the Samaritans particular way of thinking, right? There is a reason a Samaritan was used in that parable; Samaritans were called ‘dogs’ and ‘swine’ by Jews.

 

[latinmasslover]

One of my nightmares would entail lying on my death bed with some Christian determined to share Jesus with me.

Then ask him or her to leave. No true Christian is going to force Jesus on you. I honestly don’t see what the problem is, last I heard the Jews regard Him as a prophet…is this the case only with some “branches” of Judaism? (just curious, not meant to start an argument).

 

[latinmasslover]

It would make me miserable, just as telling them about Jesus would make them miserable. I guess the question is one of balance- is it right to do what is wrong if it helps that person and harms no other (except me, of course)? The Good Samaritan helped that poor soul without trying to convert him to the Samaritans particular way of thinking, right? There is a reason a Samaritan was used in that parable; Samaritans were called ‘dogs’ and ‘swine’ by Jews.

The Church does not allow us to “sin for a good reason.” It may not be as serious a sin (only God knows this) but it’s still not morally permitted. The Good Samaritan physically helped the beaten man, it wasn’t a story about fulfilling last minute requests. Jesus was showing that nobody is exempt from Christian charity…the next question: is it truly charitable, as a Christian, to grant false peace in a false god? Sometimes just being there (and silently praying for this soul) is all we can do, and sometimes that’s enough for that person. I wouldn’t expect somebody to go against their god, false though it may be, to make me feel better. That’s the way I see it, anyway.

 

[Kaninchen]

Then ask him or her to leave. No true Christian is going to force Jesus on you.

The nightmare is them not going away, them starting at all would just be annoying.

I honestly don’t see what the problem is, last I heard the Jews regard Him as a prophet…is this the case only with some “branches” of Judaism? (just curious, not meant to start an argument).

I’m afraid you’ve been entirely mistaking in your hearing. No branch of Judaism regards Jesus as any kind of prophet.

 

[latinmasslover]

The nightmare is them not going away, them starting at all would just be annoying.

I’m afraid you’ve been entirely mistaking in your hearing. No branch of Judaism regards Jesus as any kind of prophet.

I’ll have to knock the girl on the head for saying it. Good to know. Her actual wording was more like “They think He was a prophet, but that He was insane.” It made sense to her, I was sort of scratching my head at it. Sound familiar, or did she get a load of garbage from somebody?

Also, I would never suggest to force Christianity on another. In school a girl accused this one guy of being anti-Christian. His response: I’m not anti-Christian, I’m anti-Pushy-Chrisitan. I thought it was funny (Protestant friend didn’t…oh well). Anyway, I’d only talk about Him if they were (at the least) *willing *to listen. God Bless.

 

[Kaninchen]

I’ll have to knock the girl on the head for saying it. Good to know. Her actual wording was more like “They think He was a prophet, but that He was insane.” It made sense to her, I was sort of scratching my head at it. Sound familiar, or did she get a load of garbage from somebody?

No idea where she got that from, it’s not even on any “X things you thought you knew about Judaism” list that I’ve come across!

Also, I would never suggest to force Christianity on another. In school a girl accused this one guy of being anti-Christian. His response: I’m not anti-Christian, I’m anti-Pushy-Chrisitan. I thought it was funny (Protestant friend didn’t…oh well). Anyway, I’d only talk about Him if they were (at the least) *willing *to listen. God Bless.

Fortunately, the compulsive ‘sharers’ are very obvious.

 

[latinmasslover]

No idea where she got that from, it’s not even on any “X things you thought you knew about Judaism” list that I’ve come across!

Fortunately, the compulsive ‘sharers’ are very obvious.

Well, gotta try and get Him in where we can…definitly overdone at times. Discernment in this area is difficult. Please try to remember that what’s going through our minds are: am I doing too much and driving them away forever… just enough (driving them away now only to have them come around later)…am I not doing enough…? As we’re told by Him to “preach the Gospel to all nations” we’re obligated to share…hard to know where to draw the line sometimes. Be patient with us, the intentions are (usually) very good.