Would you support a "novelty-free" OF Mass?

[mick321]

Does anyone else find it ironic (or even hypocritical) that some traditionalists who support the TLM and EF and denigrate the NO are most often the ones that throw around terms like “cafeteria catholic” and “heresy” when talking about modernism in the Church?

Well, doesn’t choosing the TLM/EF to the exclusion of the NO (and encouraging others to do the same) strike anyone as cafeteria catholicism?

Don’t comments about the NO being less valid, less pleasing to God, and the source of bad fruits worthy of punishment strike anyone as heresy?

OK. Let the pummeling begin…

Clarification:

• Cafeteria Catholic = one who consumes food or drink in church.

All irony aside, this is something I think we can do without.

 

[Timothysis]

*]Cowardly ushers

I will never, repeat NEVER give up my cowardly ushers.

 

[Shin]

How good and evil come from the Lord:

I am the Lord, He tells us Himself by the mouth of the prophet Isaias, and there is none else. I form light and create darkness; I make peace and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things. * It is I who bring both death and life, I who inflict wounds and heal them, He said to Moses. * 'The Lord killeth and maketh alive, it is written in the Canticle of Anna, the mother of Samuel, He bringeth down to the tomb and He bringeth back again; the Lord maketh poor and maketh rich, he humbleth and he exalteth. Shall there be evil (disaster, affliction) in a city which the Lord hath not done? asks the prophet Amos: Good things and evil, life and death, poverty and riches are from God Solomon proclaims.

- Trustful Surrender to Divine Providence

How God can be displeased with Papal legislation, the example being regarding the law against the marriage of priests:

"But now I shall tell you God’s will in this matter; for I gave birth to God himself. You will make these things known to my bishop and say to him that circumcision was given to Abraham long before the law was given to Moses and that, in that time of Abraham, all human beings whatsoever were guided according to their own intellect and according to the choice of their own will and that, nevertheless, many of them were then friends of God. But after the law was given to Moses, it then pleased God more that human beings should live under the law and according to the law rather than follow their own human understanding and choice. It was the same with my Son’s blessed Body.

For after he instituted in the world this new sacrament of the Eucharist and ascended into heaven, the ancient law was then still kept: namely, that Christian priests lived in carnal matrimony. And, nonetheless, many of them were still friends of God because they believed with simple purity that this was pleasing to God: namely, that Christian priests should have wives and live in wedlock just as, in the ancient times of the Jews, this had pleased him in the case of Jewish priests. And so, this was the observance of Christian priests for many years.

But that observance and ancient custom seemed very abominable and hateful to all the heavenly court and to me, who gave birth to his body: namely, because it was being thus observed by Christian priests who, with their hands, touch and handle this new and immaculate Sacrament of the most holy Body of my Son. For the Jews had, in the ancient law of the Old Testament, a shadow, i.e., a figure, of this Sacrament; but Christians now have the truth itself - namely, him who is true God an man - in that blessed and consecrated bread.

After those earlier Christian priests had observed these practices for a time, God himself, through the infusion of his Holy Spirit, put into the heart of the pope then guiding the Church another law more acceptable and pleasing to him in this matter: namely, by pouring this infusion into the heart of the pope so that he established a statute in the universal Church that Christian priests, who have so holy and so worthy an office, namely, of consecrating this precious Sacrament, should by no means live in the easily contaminated, carnal delight of marriage.

And therefore, through God’s preordinance and his judgment, it has been justly ordained that priests who do not live in chastity and continence of the flesh are cursed and excommunicated before God and deserve to be deprived of their priestly office. But still, if they truthfully amend their lives with the true purpose of not sinning further, they will obtain mercy from God.

"Know this too: that if some pope concedes to priests a license to contract carnal marriage, God will condemn him to a sentence as great, in a spiritual way, as that which the law justly inflicts in a corporeal way on a man who has transgressed so gravely that he must have his eyes gouged out, his tongue and lips, nose and ears cut off, his hands and feet amputated, all his body’s blood spilled out to grow completely cold, and finally, his whole bloodless corpse cast out to be devoured by dogs and other wild beasts. Similar things would truly happen in a spiritual way to that pope who were to go against the aforementioned preordinance and will of God and concede to priests such a license to contract marriage.

For that same pope would be totally deprived by God of his spiritual sight and hearing, and of his spiritual words and deeds. All his spiritual wisdom would grow completely cold; and finally, after his death, his soul would be cast out to be tortured eternally in hell so that there it might become the food of demons everlastingly and without end. Yes, even if Saint Gregory the Pope had made this statute, in the aforesaid sentence he would never have obtained mercy from God if he had not humbly revoked his statute before his death."

The Blessed Virgin Mary to St. Bridget of Sweden

St. Catherine of Siena warns the Pope of the danger of Hell if he does not exercise his office properly and enforce discipline and Church laws:

‘. . . Pardon my presumption in what I have said to you and am saying; I am constrained by the Sweet Primal Truth to say it. His will, father, is this, and thus demands of you. It demands that you execute justice on the abundance of many iniquities committed by those who are fed and pastured in the garden of Holy Church; declaring that brutes should not be fed with the food of men. Since He has given you authority and you have assumed it, you should use your virtue and power: and if you are not willing to use it, it would be better for you to resign what you have assumed; more honour to God and health to your soul would it be.’

St. Catherine of Siena, ‘Letter to Pope Gregory XI’

 

[Shin]

Hmm… This is in reply to the last question to me. Hopefully it will provide food for thought as to how some things that at first might seem to be in the realm of opinion, or loyalty to some, are not necessarily so.

I suppose of could have quoted Bl. Anna Marie Taigi too.

I think this shows my perspective on the matter more fully. Thank you for inquiring into it.

 

[mick321]

Ushers are those employed to escort people to their seats in a theater, church, or stadium. They are also the official doorkeepers. The faithful depend upon these folks to provide and maintain a safe and orderly environment for the worship and glorification of God. Nothing less. Often their mere presence will deter unsafe and disorderly conduct. During Mass, they should be prepared to pleasantly, promptly and silently attend to the individual needs of worshipers and protesters alike.

WHAT on earth do you mean by that?? It makes them sound like security guards!

Priests and Deacons should distribute Holy Communion in ordinary circumstances. Bishops and Cardinals my serve in extraordinary circumstances.

Yes, and your point about bishops and cardinal is?
I wonder how many people attend your TLM Mass.
In my church the priest and 6-8 EM distribute communion and it still takes nearly 15 min.

Church doors should never be locked during Mass.

Obviously, but how else do you propose to stop late arrivals?

In 1 Chronicles 26 of the Old Testament, the Levitical Temple is described as having a number of gatekeepers. Their duties were “protecting the temple from theft”, “illegal entry into sacred areas” and “maintaining order”. These are functions they share with the modern concept of the usher. The best ushers never eject anyone. They “talk to people” and remind them of the venue’s rules.

I always thought that Bishops and Cardinals were ordained priests. As such, they are free to assist a priest celebrant - in the distribution of Holy Communion - at any time. Am I wrong?

I attend a EF mass twice weekly. There are normally less than 100 faithful in attendance. Our priest regularly distributes Holy Communion to this group single-handedly. For special liturgies, we have had as many as 300 in attendance. At these events, another priest will assist with Communion.

I have never actually checked my watch during Holy Communion but I suppose the larger group could take as long as 15 minutes. I’ve heard no complaints. Priests enter the priesthood to offer the Mass and confect the Eucharist. The faithful are grateful for their service.

I don’t know of a way to totally eliminate late arrivals. Things happen. That said, late arrivals should never be permitted to disrupt a mass which has already begun. Once the priest has entered the sanctuary, no one should be allowed entry through the center aisle. Ushers should charitably escort late arrivals through a side aisle. An easily accessible section of pews should be reserved so these folks can find a seat quickly and unobtrusively.

 

[choy]

choy,

I agree with you all the way down the line on each issue.

Regarding locking the doors, that’s been tried in some places where I go, but it was illegal. You can’t lock a crowd in a large building without doors which can open.

you got a point, there’s a fire code to follow

in my previous parish what they do is lock the main doors, but of course the fire exits and the doors immediately to the left and right of the main doors are closed but unlocked. this just prevents people from opening the main door during mass and cause a distraction

Maybe they should put alarms on the doors so they would sound a horn when somebody leaves early.

Once when my kid got sick during Mass I left the sanctuary early so he wouldn’t barf on people. That day, I would still have left even if there was a horn.

Alan

well, thing is we can’t judge if people’s intentions for leaving early are valid. some may have sick relatives they need to rush to. there’s so many things that can happen one day that you don’t know if some people really need to leave early. i used to be bothered by it but i trained myself to just ignore it, there may be a valid reason. also, maybe there could be just a gentle reminder that if people need to leave early, not to be a distraction

 

[AlanFromWichita]

i used to be bothered by it but i trained myself to just ignore it, there may be a valid reason. also, maybe there could be just a gentle reminder that if people need to leave early, not to be a distraction

I’m with you. I was trained to despise people leaving early, with a silent “harrumph,” but all that does is inject anger to me during Mass, so I conclude that since its fruit is anger and judgment, that training must have been from a bad tree. Never mind that I see priests throw hissy fits during Mass when people leave early, contributing to the spectacle.

The less I let other people’s behaviors bother me, the less satan can use that emotional response against me through those other people.

Really, it has bothered me for a long time that Jesus insisted we quit judging, but the adults that taught us kids our religion also taught us to judge like no others.

Alan

 

[choy]

I’m with you. I was trained to despise people leaving early, with a silent “harrumph,” but all that does is inject anger to me during Mass, so I conclude that since its fruit is anger and judgment, that training must have been from a bad tree. Never mind that I see priests throw hissy fits during Mass when people leave early, contributing to the spectacle.

The less I let other people’s behaviors bother me, the less satan can use that emotional response against me through those other people.

Really, it has bothered me for a long time that Jesus insisted we quit judging, but the adults that taught us kids our religion also taught us to judge like no others.

Alan

i usually don’t mind if people leave early. but i remember in my former parish people leave via the emergency exits and just barge through the door, and sometimes even leave the door open, even during winter. not that sets me off. nobody’s forcing them to stay at Mass, but at least they should respect those who choose to do the right thing

 

[Shin]

Well, leaving early or coming late – if it’s the Sunday mass, the obligation is not fulfilled if for example this occurs if you arrive after the offertory or leave before Holy Communion is over, and still it’s a mortal sin, I have been told. Because you have missed mass.

Missing a significant portion of the mass is missing the mass. Otherwise… if you do not miss a significant part… The obligation may be fulfilled, but the late arrival or early leaving is still a venial sin without sufficient cause.

Causes such as sickness, lack of transportation, etc. excuse the obligation or early or late leaving.

Too if you went to half a mass in the morning and then the other half in the evening, that is not properly hearing the mass and not fulfilling the obligation.

If it’s a regular occurrence, there’s a high probability it’s a problem. But of course at OF masses most people are not properly catechized and treat all things more casually, including coming and going and the gravity of it all.

It’s one of the ill fruits of casual liturgy – casual parishioners towards the liturgy. Imagine that. Calvary… approached casually. What could offend the Lord more than treating Calvary as… a casual event? Love… hate… these are one thing… lukewarmness?


Keeping Sunday Holy

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Shin, thank you for the information about Mass obligations. I think it is good that you summed that up.

I agree that if these people are leaving without good reason, they may be missing their obligation. That said, it is their obligation and not mine, so that’s why I no longer let it upset me. If it “gets to me” when they do that, then I am opening the door for enemy attack.

I say this because when I was little my teachers and parents used to make snide remarks about people leaving early, and the pastor would get angry. To me, the bad behavior of Leaving Early – no doubt inspired somehow by satan – tests them to find out whether they have the peace of Christ, or anger, in their hearts for what comes out of their mouths shows us what’s there. :yup:

Peace and joy,
Alan

 

[Shin]

Shin, thank you for the information about Mass obligations. I think it is good that you summed that up.

I agree that if these people are leaving without good reason, they may be missing their obligation. That said, it is their obligation and not mine, so that’s why I no longer let it upset me. If it “gets to me” when they do that, then I am opening the door for enemy attack.

I say this because when I was little my teachers and parents used to make snide remarks about people leaving early, and the pastor would get angry. To me, the bad behavior of Leaving Early – no doubt inspired somehow by satan – tests them to find out whether they have the peace of Christ, or anger, in their hearts for what comes out of their mouths shows us what’s there. :yup:

Peace and joy,
Alan

Well, you’re very right about not getting upset, I agree. It’s very easy to get a righteous anger against evils, and at times this is very right and necessary to have – but only suitably controlled, and ended when of no use. Useless anger – is useless!

I’ve found in my own life, that yes, the Enemy can try to make use of this to ruin mass entirely, and use it as a wedge against a person going to mass, because the enjoyment is taken out of it by all the problems you start to notice.

This is especially the case when a person who knows liturgical law, or who would prefer the Latin Mass, has no choice but to attend the novus ordo.

 

[Canto]

If your parish offered a Sunday Mass in the Ordinary Form - stripped of the most offensive novelties of the last 40 years - would you support it?

Imagine an EF high Mass with the expection that the text is that of the OF in Latin with the antiphons chanted in Latin but the other propers i.e. readings, collect, prayer after Communion etc in English (literal), I think it would be great, and easier to follow and remember the Latin.

 

[ProVobis]

The less I let other people’s behaviors bother me, the less satan can use that emotional response against me through those other people.

Really, it has bothered me for a long time that Jesus insisted we quit judging, but the adults that taught us kids our religion also taught us to judge like no others.

Alan

Yet you turn around and don’t hesitate to judge those who “judge” yourself?

That said, it is their obligation and not mine, so that’s why I no longer let it upset me. If it “gets to me” when they do that, then I am opening the door for enemy attack.

But it “gets to you” enough that you have to tell this to the world. Seems to me if it really didn’t bother you, you wouldn’t even be posting. So there’s a little contradiction there.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Yet you turn around and don’t hesitate to judge those who “judge” yourself?

You are right. I should not have used the “mad” smiley, but the “sad” one. I think nearly every one of us is trained this way, and I find it very sad. I do not blame our parents and teachers because they are only teaching us what they know.

But it “gets to you” enough that you have to tell this to the world. Seems to me if it really didn’t bother you, you wouldn’t even be posting. So there’s a little contradiction there.

You must have misread me. I said it doesn’t get to me, because I no longer let it. My point is that other people leaving early does not bother me. I’m writing this on an Internet post because some people honestly don’t believe they can or are supposed to be free from this, and get themselves bound with anger based on others’ behavior. It’s OK not to get mad, really. That’s my message. For 50 years I’ve watched people leave church early and I’ve seen those who didn’t leave early get sputtering mad and let it ruin their entire day – and then they repeat the whole performance week after week.

Does it “get to you” when people leave Mass early? Maybe you need one of my chill pills?

Alan

 

[ProVobis]

Does it “get to you” when people leave Mass early? Maybe you need one of my chill pills?

I think I need a chill pill everytime I read one of those “it doesn’t bother me” posts when obviously it does.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I think I need a chill pill everytime I read one of those “it doesn’t bother me” posts when obviously it does.

I know what you mean. Let me know if you see one and I’ll help you attack it.

Alan

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hey Mick,

Good question. My answer is still no. I went to such a Mass last night and it is an improvement that I applaud. The Novus Ordo is valid, licit, but intrinsically designed to communicate a democratization and blurring of lines between priest and laity which was the main reason, it seems to me, that the Traditional Mass came under such severe criticism by people who couldn’t reconcile egalitarianism in their politics with hierarchy in their religion. I recognize that the Novus Ordo isn’t always and necessarily an occasion of indecorum, yet I have one main reason to object to almost every change in the New Mass. I will give for an example the expanded Sign of Peace as directed in the Ordinary Mass.

I don’t think the timing of the Kiss of Peace is as scandalous as some Traditionalists seem to believe. I do not think its insertion at this point intends any disrespect for the Real Presence of Christ. According to my 1962 Missal published by Angelus Press its inclusion in the Solemn Traditional Masses, also between the Consecration and Communion, have an ancient purpose expressed by St. Cyril of Jerusalem:

Of course, in the Traditional Mass it is considered adequate that the Celebrant and Deacon exchange the sign with decorum whereas in the New Mass, the entire people often turn it into a distracting and scandalous hugfest. I go to the Novus Ordo so seldom, but last night I assisted at a Baccalaureate Mass (also the Solemnity of the Sacred Heart) almost entirely in Latin with a good children’s choir and chant. The Mass was done with solemnity and when the sign of peace came there were mostly smiles and nods of the head with perhaps a few handshakes with near neighbors. It doesn’t necessarily have to result in a celebration of our own ability to greet each other.

I don’t say this to defend the Novus Ordo or the expanded kiss of peace. I seldom go and last night did not give me any regrets about having abandoned it for most purposes. I think it is important to remember that there is supposed to be a teaching that is attached to the practice which has traditionally occurred in the same place in the Mass as it is in the 1962 Missal. What I find to be wrong with it is that without the proper understanding between all who assist at Mass, it lends itself to any ordinary greeting.

The symbolism of suppressing any grudges we might hold before receiving Holy Communion is lost. But the agenda driven liturgy of the Novus Ordo Mass is furthered because as with ripping out altar rails and having the people say the Our Father, it is a successful attempt to democratize the Mass according to the political beliefs of modern children of the French and American Revolutions. It is an attempt to bypass the hierarchical structure that Christ established when He placed His Kingdom in the hands of St. Peter, the Apostles, and the bishops and priests who would carry on their work. These politicoes who changed the Mass didn’t appear to me to help people more readily forgive offenses, but they once again arranged it so that if priests get to do something so must the lay people. That is why I despise the expanded kiss of peace, and not for the reasons often given by Traditionalists.

I went to one Mass in which the priest came down and went around the Church greeting everyone. it took a long time for everyone to move around the Church greeting everyone.

 

[Timothysis]

It’s one of the ill fruits of casual liturgy – casual parishioners towards the liturgy. Imagine that. Calvary… approached casually. What could offend the Lord more than treating Calvary as… a casual event? Love… hate… these are one thing… lukewarmness?


Keeping Sunday Holy

My dad told me that he remembers how, during the latin Mass, the men would stand in the back of the church and pop outside to have a smoke. This was long before the OF…is it the liturgy that is casual or people’s attitudes towards it? Lukewarmness has been around since the days of Christ Himself; if people could have walked away from Christ when they saw Him face to face, what makes anyone wonder that they would walk away from Him now?

It is not fair to blame every ill of the Church today on the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

 

[Shin]

My dad told me that he remembers how, during the latin Mass, the men would stand in the back of the church and pop outside to have a smoke. This was long before the OF…is it the liturgy that is casual or people’s attitudes towards it? Lukewarmness has been around since the days of Christ Himself; if people could have walked away from Christ when they saw Him face to face, what makes anyone wonder that they would walk away from Him now?

It is not fair to blame every ill of the Church today on the Ordinary Form of the Mass.

This is something different, and I’d say this was outside of the church normally. Especially in Latin countries there’s a problem with church being seen as something for women only, and not for men. It’s been exacerbated by feminine priests and soft sermons.

 

[wanner47]

I have *never *seen anyone serving at Mass wear “civilian clothing.” Granted, I’ve only been Catholic for 7 years, but I’ve been to quite a few OF masses in that time. I really don’t think this is a widespread problem.