Would you support it if the Civil Law Give Right for Husband to Consent to/ Forbid Wife's Abortion

[francisca.chapter3]

we can start suggesting crazy stuff like being able to hula hoop for 5 minutes, lol.

This rather on the creative side

laws that aim to restrict abortions such as mandatory counselling, a waiting period, showing the mother ultrasound images and abortion procedures etc are a lot more reasonable since it’s making the women aware of what’s going on. Which not all women know

I agree to these too. This thread is separate matter though.

 

[Sarcelle]

I would say rather that my opinion of women is more charitable than this idea that they are weak and incapable of much. But I know it is part of our culture that people want more and more privileges without the responsibility for any of the results that goes along with the decisions one makes. But then, I most of the women I have know have been capable equals of men, and do not need the treatment one affords children.

Unfortunately there are a lot of Christians who think women ought to be treated as legal minors, the equal of children.

 

[Sarcelle]

This would be a very ignorant and uncharitable stance given that wives in this situation are often dependent on their husbands and even women’s shelters and social workers would say that these women would need time to save and/or to get everything in check before immediately leaving after the rape.

I agree. This is especially true if the woman follows conventional thinking of what a devout Catholic wife should be like, stay at home mom of many children who is financially dependent on her husband.

A wife who is financially dependent on her husband and has many children is more or less stuck and vulnerable. That much is certain. It’s not that easy to just leave.

 

[DarkLight]

Unfortunately there are a lot of Christians who think women ought to be treated as legal minors, the equal of children.

Definitely.

All that said as well - abusive relationships are hard on anyone. I think sometimes in wider society the problem with treating women as “equals to men” is that we’ve gotten some stupid ideas about men too. We treat men like they’re supposed to be essentially emotional and psychological islands, completely self-sufficient and never needing help from anyone or being able to be hurt.

I have known male victims of domestic violence, and the emotional chains are just as strong. Perhaps more so because men are expected to be able to just deal with it and seen as not in need of help.

 

[Sarcelle]

I have utmost sympathy for the victims of domestic violence, be it man, woman or child. To be hurt by the people who claim to love you is a deep betrayal.

By the way have you heard about the rising rates of domestic violence in Japan? In this situation, there are more men who report being abused.

 

[Pattylt]

By older I meant the older method used for testing though it also meant the pregnancy had to be later along as there had to be enough amniotic fluid to tap.

The newer blood test method is sometimes claimed as early as 5weeks gestation but the error rate is much lower (better) if the wait until 8 weeks.

Availability, I think is dependent upon the facility. Some would require doctors orders and/or court orders. Their may be completely private testing facilities that just depend on your ability to pay…I haven’t looked into this and am just making a somewhat educated guess. I’ve done DNA testing but not for paternity reasons. We didn’t touch those cases with a ten foot pole. Too much time being needed to appear in court!

If you google dna fetus testing, you’ll find more information from the companies that perform them!

 

[Lea101]

I would say rather that my opinion of women is more charitable than this idea that they are weak and incapable of much. But I know it is part of our culture that people want more and more privileges without the responsibility for any of the results that goes along with the decisions one makes. But then, I most of the women I have know have been capable equals of men, and do not need the treatment one affords children.

We’re talking about women who are raped and are experiencing abuse by their husbands. You’re saying they have to accept responsibility because they’re staying with their abusive husbands when I just explained why they can’t. I’m afraid it’s you that has a very poor view on these women, especially by comparing the appropriate treatment as ‘for children’.

I did not say that. If you take what I said with this amount of inaccuracy, then it would be understandable that you think it uncharitable

You said after a few times. Which indicates a woman not leaving the first or second instance of abuse.

We’re not talking about girlfriends who willingly stay even though their lives are not as risk/deeply emotionally manipulated to stay. We’re talking about wives who are usually dependent on their abusers, on top of being traumatised and emotionally manipulated.

 

[pnewton]

You said after a few times. Which indicates a woman not leaving the first or second instance of abuse.

Definition of FEW

not many persons or things… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

I’m afraid it’s you that has a very poor view on these women

Well, that is obviously your opinion, since you choose to engage in long distance judgment. My opinion is based on a high view of women.

I simply do not see how such a person that weak in a relationship would then be the one to choose to terminate the child being born against the wishes of this master manipulator of a husband, who is able to abuse her so terribly, over and over again, while she stays for more. If this is such a case, then I still would say that ideally the husband should be able to protect that child (the baby, that is).

 

[Lea101]

. My opinion is based on a high view of women

This isn’t a good or logical justification when the opinion assumes an unrealistic expectation of people in a traumatising and dehumanising situation. It pays no attention to the situation at all, and it immediately assumes the state of an abused woman is the same as that of any other woman. Besides lacking empathy, it lacks basic knowledge of the effects of trauma on one’s psyche.

So you really can’t hide behind the excuse that you think highly of women, when we’re talking about a certain subset of women in a situation where they are financially dependent on their husbands and hence, they need time to gather resources and evidence before running away. During that time, abuse continues. I recommend you to talk to some people who run women’s shelters.

I simply do not see how such a person that weak in a relationship would then be the one to choose to terminate the child being born against the wishes of this master manipulator of a husband,

Obviously these women do it behind their husbands’ backs…? I don’t get you at all. Why do you think women in abusive relationships stay?

 

[francisca.chapter3]

The newer blood test method is sometimes claimed as early as 5weeks gestation but the error rate is much lower (better) if the wait until 8 weeks.

Availability, I think is dependent upon the facility. Some would require doctors orders and/or court orders. Their may be completely private testing facilities that just depend on your ability to pay…I haven’t looked into this and am just making a somewhat educated guess.

Thankyou @Pattylt !

Do you guys think that the availability of fetus dna test, will make things different in the future? That Man have more to say?

Let’s say the other man want the child.

How about if the form make the biological father to sign his contribution (in terms of $ up to birth/ or even education up to 18yrold), if that signature coloumn empty, it means up to the woman what to do. But even if he is willing to give one million dollars (example), it still up to the woman what to do. If she agree not to abort, then the man have duty to fulfill as well. So the burden is not with her alone during and after pregnancy.

If man want to have a say, they have to pay.

 

[francisca.chapter3]

I recommend you to talk to some people who run women’s shelters.

How about women who don’t go to woman shelter. Let’s say she’s happily married have 6 children, but unexpectedly number 7 coming. Does this number 7 have right to life if the mom say “enough” ?

 

[Lea101]

I don’t know what stance you think I have, because I’ve already said everyone has a right to life regardless of external circumstances?

 

[francisca.chapter3]

My stance in this thread is about abortion within marriage. Marriage, blessed by God, or even civil marriage, should not abort any of their children, except for serious health reasons.

Not all women go to pregnancy crisis centers/ woman shelters.

 

[Lea101]

So you feel that unmarried couples should have the right to an abortion?

Marriage, blessed by God, or even civil marriage, should not abort any of their children, except for serious health reasons.

This isn’t related to the law as well, since then you would be talking about an abortion ban for married couples instead of staying that men should be able to consent in the murder of their child?

 

[Pattylt]

IF the law would change (which I can almost guarantee won’t) then I would imagine fetal testing for DNA matches would increase for cases where paternity is denied by the father or in cases where the law would demand/request it to determine paternity.

Since this scenario is unlikely, paternity testing will continue as it is now only in legal disputed cases. Since it is easier now, the courts may increase the number of requests. I don’t know if the law can demand paternal testing or merely recommend it. Even a blood test is considered an invasive procedure though much less invasive than a an amniotic tap.

 

[francisca.chapter3]

So you feel that unmarried couples should have the right to an abortion?

Married couple should decide as couple. So adding husband signature, or adding biological father financial contribution will help reduce number of abortion. Within marriage is to simplify discussion. But it will ultimately affect the other man and the marriage too if wife commit adultery and there is dna test.

I don’t understand your question above
Married/ Unmarried women, they can decide to have abortion right now

 

[pnewton]

I will leave you to your opinion.

 

[Lea101]

Married/ Unmarried women, they can decide to have abortion right now

I’m asking you if you feel if they should be able to. You come across as pro choice in some posts, pro life in others. What’s your stance?

 

[runningdude]

Roe v Wade also becomes the bases why no man can by law force a woman to abort (or not to abort) her pregnancy. Man can still physically/ mentally force a woman to abort her pregnancy, but that would be against the law (against Roe v Wade to be more precise).
…
I am open to correction. All inspirations need to be tested.

In Connecticut, a state supreme court ruling (Griswold v Connecticut) allowed birth control for married women preceded birth control and eventually abortion for all. The US Supreme Court cited Griswold in justifying its decision in Roe v Wade, making outlawing abortion among married women first an extremely dubious legal strategy.

 

[francisca.chapter3]

I’m asking you if you feel if they should be able to. You come across as pro choice in some posts, pro life in others. What’s your stance?

1. I am against abortion and agree that abortion should be restricted.
2. I prefer woman to have choice, and not being coerced to carry pregnancy by anybody
3. I believe husbands should have a say if wife choose to abort their child