Would you support military action in the US to end abortion?

[vz71]

Because you lack simple comprehension and/or ignore basic civics I use simple analogies of a bank robber or peeping tom to explain common sense concepts of personal responsibility.

Really?
This actually confirms my suspicions.
When the debate is not going your way, you toss out a series of ad hominem arguments.

Perhaps you think you can insult me enough to make me lose perspective?
Perhaps your argument is so weak you must attempt to push the opposition off balance through baseless personnal insult.

I must admit I was taken aback some upon reading this.
But given that I do not know precisely what you are working on, I will let this one slide rather then report the personnal insults to the moderators.

You obviously don’t grasp the obvious which is the civillian policy order to deploy the troops is the error that soils any greater good you are claiming being performed in Iraq. You wrap yourself in this false nobility with smugness of an imagined rightousness.

What I grasp is that you continue to attempt to equate the war in Iraq with the murder of the unborn.
There is no comparison between the two.

Your continued inability to comprehend is not my problem.

Sure it is.
When you alter the meaning of words to suit the argument at hand, you create confusion.
My inability to play into the confusion must be frustrating.

You know, I learned a long time ago that when you have to distort the meaning of words to get a logical argument; you don’t have a logical argument.

Did the military make the mission in Iraq? Was it their idea to attack Iraq, leaving Afghanistan too early and threaten Iran?

Not that it is pertinent, but we are still in Afghanistan.

If you told someone whose job it is is to protect you to punch another person in the nose because they threatened you, and they go punch 5 people in the nose because you aren’t sure who it was that threatened you, when the person you told learns you lied about being threatened was his punch in the nose of a stranger justified? Even if he hit the one you really wanted punched despite your lie, are the other four that got punched in the nose an acident?

Who said what?
And lied where?
Huh?

Newsflash: that is not an accident. You bare the guilt for underserve agression and damage, not the person who was tasked to protect you that you lied to.

All of that to try to explain how an accidental death is really deliberate?
How about this…accidental death is exactly that, an accident.
The word accident already has a meaning, we don’t have to invent some 27 ninjas scenario to explain its meaning. Just look in a dictionary.

Are you a veteran?

Does it matter?

You have difficulty with simple responsibility concepts so maybe you have difficulty understanding my desire is to preserve the integrity and honor of our military and keep them safe so they can keep us safe when it is really needed rather than continue the misadventures they have been ordered into now.

Preserving the honor and integrity of our military by comparing them to abortionists?

I’ll ask again…
Is it your intent to equate the death of the innocent unborn with accidental death.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Really?

Really.

This actually confirms my suspicions.
When the debate is not going your way, you toss out a series of ad hominem arguments.

Your conclusions are lacking in the argument so confirmation of whatever your suspicions are is not relavent.

Perhaps you think you can insult me enough to make me lose perspective?
Perhaps your argument is so weak you must attempt to push the opposition off balance through baseless personnal insult.

Your perspective is lacking reference and if you feel my comments insult your intelligence maybe there is substance to your conclusion in this instance.

I must admit I was taken aback some upon reading this.
But given that I do not know precisely what you are working on, I will let this one slide rather then report the personnal insults to the moderators.

Report away. The OP is pretty obvious when the objective is to point out hypocrisy of the pro-war, pro-life position.

What I grasp is that you continue to attempt to equate the war in Iraq with the murder of the unborn.
There is no comparison between the two.

Tell that to the innocent dead in Iraq.

Sure it is.
When you alter the meaning of words to suit the argument at hand, you create confusion.
My inability to play into the confusion must be frustrating.

I have not altered the meaning. You use it inappropriately. Simple.

You know, I learned a long time ago that when you have to distort the meaning of words to get a logical argument; you don’t have a logical argument.

Then stop distorting the meaning. You do not have a logical argument.

Not that it is pertinent, but we are still in Afghanistan.

7 years later and no closer to cold justice.

Who said what?
And lied where?
Huh?

Another diversion? You can’t get off ‘accident’ and you want to go after ‘lie’ now?

All of that to try to explain how an accidental death is really deliberate?
How about this…accidental death is exactly that, an accident.
The word accident already has a meaning, we don’t have to invent some 27 ninjas scenario to explain its meaning. Just look in a dictionary.

I am not the one trying to justify the mess in Iraq and call it noble.

Does it matter?

I think it does here for you to accuse me of ‘sliming’ the military.

Preserving the honor and integrity of our military by comparing them to abortionists?

Consequences don’t seem to register in your mind so why would honor and integrity. You make the leap I equate our military with abortionists. If you shift your POV and call the civilan leaders who direct the military in that role we might be able to move forward. I have my doubts you can.

I’ll ask again…
Is it your intent to equate the death of the innocent unborn with accidental death.

Why?

 

[vz71]

I’ll ask again…
Is it your intent to equate the death of the innocent unborn with accidental death.

Why?

Because the question is pertinent to the discussion at hand.

You directly compared accidental death in Iraq with the holocaust that is abortion. And since that time I have been trying to get a clarification of this position.

Instead, I get personal insult.

If you cannot answer the question, simply say so.
If you need a reminder of the question:

I’ll ask again…
Is it your intent to equate the death of the innocent unborn with accidental death.

 

[Verisimilitude]

If you cannot answer the question, simply say so.

When I am asked the equivalent of ‘when will you stop beating your wife’ question and my response of ‘I do not beat my wife’ is not accepted then it is the fault of the questioner, not the answer.

 

[estesbob]

When I am asked the equivalent of ‘when will you stop beating your wife’ question and my response of ‘I do not beat my wife’ is not accepted then it is the fault of the questioner, not the answer.

VZ asked:

Is it your intent to equate the death of the innocent unborn with accidental death.

The perception of most in this thread that you do.

Seems like a pretty simple question to answer. Of course I guess the problem is if you answered no then all the analogies you put forth collapse like a house of cards. But then they were not very solid to begin with.

 

[Verisimilitude]

VZ asked:

The perception of most in this thread that you do.

The poll does not support your accusation.

Seems like a pretty simple question to answer. Of course I guess the problem is if you answered no then all the analogies you put forth collapse like a house of cards. But then they were not very solid to begin with.

Simple for the simpleminded. The only house of cards to collapse with respect to an untenable position is yours. Why do yo ufight so strenuously for the lesser evil of military force in Iraq and not the intrinsic evil of Americas abortion clinics?

Now that is a simple question.

 

[estesbob]

The poll does not support your accusation.

Simple for the simpleminded. The only house of cards to collapse with respect to an untenable position is yours. Why do yo ufight so strenuously for the lesser evil of military force in Iraq and not the intrinsic evil of Americas abortion clinics?

Now that is a simple question.

Becuase the two are related in no way shape or form-as I stated before its a silly question-. Unless of course one believes that accidental deaths are morally equivalent to abortions.

 

[vz71]

The poll does not support your accusation.

As of now, there are 68 votes and 42 voters.

Do you really believe the results of your poll are accurate?

Seems to me several people saw the poll for what it was and voted accordingly.

 

[vz71]

Unless of course one believes that accidental deaths are morally equivalent to abortions.

At least there is one other person that sees it the same way I do.
Thanks.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Becuase the two are related in no way shape or form-as I stated before its a silly question-. Unless of course one believes that accidental deaths are morally equivalent to abortions.

From your perspective then: how do you feel about 90,000 accidental deaths in Iraq in the past 5 years? How about the hundreds of thousands made homeless or mained? Are you really saying to those people in Iraq- it’s only a accident you got hurt or killed, made homeless?

 

[Verisimilitude]

Do you really believe the results of your poll are accurate?

More accurate than your mythical ‘more will die if we leave’ projection. Did you purposely lie in it or do you think others did as well?

 

[vz71]

From your perspective then: how do you feel about 90,000 accidental deaths in Iraq in the past 5 years? How about the hundreds of thousands made homeless or mained? Are you really saying to those people in Iraq- it’s only a accident you got hurt or killed, made homeless?

90,000 accidental deaths is tragic.
But what has this to do with abortion?

From the start you have been trying to tie the two together, but you have been able to do so.

Perhaps because if you do tie them together, you effectively do one of two things…you either reduce the evil that is abortion, or you turn the military fighting in Iraq into monsters running around shooting whomever they please with impunity.

Now do you think you can discuss your argument in rational terms, or do you wish to persist in personal insult to others that do not share your views?

What is your answer…
Do you intend to equate the murder of the innocent unborn children with accidental death?
It is a perfectly legitimate question stemming directly from your comparison of accidental deaths to abortion.

 

[vz71]

More accurate than your mythical ‘more will die if we leave’ projection.

I see…
So you wish to use this thread to continue a discussion that you left some time ago?
Why not refute the quote when you were there?
Why wait?

Did you purposely lie in it or do you think others did as well?

No, I did not lie.
But the numbers of the poll speak for themselves.

I submit that the poll results are questionable at best, fictitious at worst.

 

[Verisimilitude]

90,000 accidental deaths is tragic.
But what has this to do with abortion?

You have a very myopic view towards death of innocents and dismiss the contradiction. Death is death and killing is killing. It hardly matters to the dead Iraqi or the murdered baby why they die but it should matter to the living why they kill.

Perhaps because if you do tie them together, you effectively do one of two things…you either reduce the evil that is abortion, or you turn the military fighting in Iraq into monsters running around shooting whomever they please with impunity.

I do tie them together. You separate them. You also want to accuse me of making our military the monster when it is your wanting/encouraging/demanding they contine to act and make mistakes. Of course you don’t want them to make a mistake I am sure, but if they do…so be it. You are the monster here, not the military.

Now do you think you can discuss your argument in rational terms, or do you wish to persist in personal insult to others that do not share your views?

I bet you won’t like the monster comment then.

What is your answer…
Do you intend to equate the murder of the innocent unborn children with accidental death?
It is a perfectly legitimate question stemming directly from your comparison of accidental deaths to abortion.

Answer the OP and not your sideways question. The greater evil is abortion, not threat from terrorists and the protection if Iraqis. You refuse to limit the ‘accidents’ caused in Iraq and refuse to use force of arms in America to save a million babies a year.

If you don’t want to be seen as a hypocrite, don’t be one.

 

[demol]

At least there is one other person that sees it the same way I do.
Thanks.

Add another one.

Verisimilitude, maybe I am simple-minded, but can you please explain to me how the US military, or the Mexican military for that matter, could end abortion in the US? I am just not able to picture how that could be accomplished.

 

[Verisimilitude]

Add another one.

Verisimilitude, maybe I am simple-minded, but can you please explain to me how the US military, or the Mexican military for that matter, could end abortion in the US? I am just not able to picture how that could be accomplished.

We are going throuh Iraq searching private houses and business in neighborhoods for ‘terrorists’ who kill innocents in Iraq, right? Why not send troops through American neighborhoods to round up abortion doctors to stop the killing of children in America? More innocents are killed in Americas abortion clinics than in Iraqi neighborhoods.

 

[prodigal-sun]

Many support using our military to save others even if it causes the death of some innocent people. I have been told it is our (US) ‘Christian duty’ to ‘finish the job’, and ‘prevent mass killing’ of innocent Iraqi’s if we pull our troops out too early. Using the military to save others is a good thing isn’t it?

How many Iraqis have died since 2003? (Estimates vary: 90,000 to in the hundreds of thousands civilians) Are all 27 million equally free now as we think of freedom? If you hold the we broke it and must buy/fix it attitude, shouldn’t we at least get what we want? Are you?

How may Iraqis died during the UN embargo which began after the first Gulf War?
Estimates of direct casualties of the sanctions remain a highly contested subject. An short overview of claims:[28]
• “probably … 170,000 children” (Project on Defense Alternatives, “The Wages of War”, 20. October 2003)
• 350,000 excess deaths among children “even using conservative estimates” (Slate Explainer, “Are 1 Million Children Dying in Iraq?”, 9. October 2001)
• United Nations: 1,000,000 Iraqis (CNN, “Iraq condemns embargo on 9th anniversary of sanctions”, 6. August 1999)
• Iraqi Baathist Al-Thawra newspaper: 1.5 million (CNN, 6. August 1999)
• Ramsey Clark: 1.5 million (includes sanctions, bombs and other weapons, depleted uranium poisoning) (The Wisdom Fund, “Former US Attorney General Charges US, British and UN Leaders,” 20. November 1996)
• Iraqi Cultural Minister Hammadi: 1.7 million (includes sanctions, bombs and other weapons, depleted uranium poisoning) (“Iraq criticizes US, UK at Baghdad Conference…” 10. May 2001)
• Journalist Matt Welch, Reason Magazine, 2002: “It seems awfully hard not to conclude that the embargo on Iraq has … contributed to more than 100,000 deaths since 1990.”[14]

How many died from the weapons we sold Saddam in the 80’s?
How many Iraqis would die if we pull out now? (I can’t find a projected estimate and my crystal ball isn’t working. If someone that supports staying in Iraq to prevent a lot of death, please tell me what a lot is so I can compare it with those that have already occurred. Thanks)
What is the ratio of dead innocent Iraqis to dead ‘terrorists’ in Iraq that makes it worthwhile to continue:5 to 1?

How many abortions in America? Some statistics are about 800,000 to 900,000 per year and a total of over 50 million since 1973.

I can’t think of a greater national interest than our future/children, or a more noble Christian cause to end infanticide. Maybe we should ask another country to help us since our military is helping others right now. Half of Mexico is already here, so why not their military? We would pay for it of course. We can borrow more from China if we need to. They already give us money so we can give it to Pakistan and Egypt so the loan is just for a longer term. Your great grand-kids will finish paying off the loan maybe…if they don’t suffer the fate of an abortion.

So let’s end abortion and use the military to do it unless we are worth less than Iraqis and oil. If that is the case maybe we should just vote for the lesser of two evils.

If this is a new form of ‘love your neighbor as yourself’ we should love ourselves more and hate our enemies less.

Nice try of linking the abortion fiasco to the Iraq war. As an outsider I truly believe that the Iraq war was some what justifiable but since our late great pope argued against it, we should have known better. But now that you are in, you must stay and finish the job you started. To leave now, would be like throwing them to the ravenous wolves. Iraq would fall into chaos and an evwen bigger threat will come out of it in the future.

I did not vote in this poll because the OP (IMHO) is using a pro-life issue to prve a point about an unrelated topic.

I’m finished with this thread and suggest it falls into the lost annals of CAF’s archives.

Peace!

 

[demol]

We are going throuh Iraq searching private houses and business in neighborhoods for ‘terrorists’ who kill innocents in Iraq, right? Why not send troops through American neighborhoods to round up abortion doctors to stop the killing of children in America? More innocents are killed in Americas abortion clinics than in Iraqi neighborhoods.

So, are you saying that what the terrorists in Iraq are doing is legal? Because, unfortunately, what the abortion doctors are doing here is (for now).

 

[vz71]

Death is death and killing is killing.

It seems you equate all deaths.

Can I accept this as assent that you do in fact equate the murder of the innocent unborn with accidental deaths?

 

[vz71]

*Last edited by demol : Today at 1:45 pm. Reason: changed title *

Thanks for the title change.
I was initially concerned with utilizing it to call people names, but as often as I missed it, I figured most did as well.