Would you wear this habit?

[LovedMyAlydar]

I think the habits are very nice. I had a wonderful Bernadine sister who taught 5th grade. She wore the long habit and was the sweetest teacher in all my years of Catholic school. She was an avid gardener and cook. Her long habit didn’t seem to bother her in any of her duties. My 2nd cousin and a great aunt were both Felician sisters and wore the habit.

These habits don’t cost too much to make, simple materials. And for them discouraging women to join the order, many of the traditional orders have grown rapidly and are building new convents, etc. to accommodate the surge in vocations.

The Sisters of Carmel were the long habits and are not hurting for new members. They are a cloistered contemplative order of nuns in Colorado.

http://www.sistersofcarmel.com/pics/carmelite-sisters-sewing-vestments.jpg

http://www.sistersofcarmel.com/pics/carmelite-nuns-raking-leaves.jpg

 

[KerryIsCatholic]

If that is what the order I felt I was called to wore, then yes. If that was my habit, I wouldn’t mind some of it changing (but unless it actually was getting in the way of my duties, that is really just vanity speaking).

Also, a simple habit (but identifiable as such) is not any more cumbersome than average clothing. The community that I am going to join has a tunic , scapular, and cowl, which is not much different in complexity than a dress with a cardigan. And a veil. Also, there is a simplicity in not choosing your clothing everyday. I do not think “simple” has to mean hidden or the same as a non-Sister.

However, there is the matter of benefits to others (as wells as the Sister herself) for wearing a habit. Canon law (669) mentions that the habit is a “sign of their consecration and a witness to poverty” and something that is noticeable is important to be that sign and witness. The same canon says that religious should wear the habit of their institute, so there is plenty of room for diversity in habit. I think that the visible sign and witness help others - it makes others think of God and also points out the religious as someone who could be approached (now, the religious have to live up to that! But, they are consecrated - set apart - for God, so they should strive to be an example).

Anyway, just my 2 cents…

 

[JReducation]

CLARIFICATIONS

For the person who asked why we don’t raise sheep, etc. Franciscans are not monastic. Monastic life and everything associated with monasticism was jettisoned by St. Francis except for women. Franciscan women can be either monastic or mendicant. Men must always be mendicant. Mendicants do not own monasteries, do not own land, do not work with our hands, do not raise animals, and do not do any kind of manual labor other than the typical household chores that are done in any home. We’re also not home long enough to do sew.

For the person who asked why it costs up to $300 to make a habit. You’ll have to ask the companies that make them. This is the least expensive company in the country. In fact, the grey habit on this page is mine.

gloryandpraisevestments.com/habits6_final.html

Notice

$250.00 Tunic
30.00 Two side pockets
35.00 Cincture

$315.00 Total

I believe ours is more than that, because we have a stiff cowl. But this is the least expensive in the country. The cloistered nuns charge much more.

Another clarification – novices never did laundry for the professed. I’m not sure how that rumor started. Novices spend most of their time in class, prayer, study and community activities. Individuals took turns in the laundry room each week.

One additional clarification, Sister Carol, who appears in the picture with Vice President Biden is not a religious. You folks need to stop calling the Daughters of Charity nuns or religious. They are neither.

St. Vincent de Paul founded them in such a way so that they could retain their secular status, live in community, and make annual vows without ever have to be a novice or be in a long formation program for religious life. His intent was that the Daughters of Charity be a society of pious women who remain celibate in order to care for the poor and sick. To this day, the Church recognizes them as a society of pious women, not as women religious. Therefore, they have no obligation to wear a habit. Canon law does not bind societies of apostolic life or pious unions to habits.

St. Louise de Marrillac and St. Elizabeth Ann Seton did not wear habits. These are their founding mothers. In fact, the pictures of St. Elizabeth Ann Seton are doctored. She wore a white cap, with her hair exposed and braided at the back of her head. Later, the sisters enlarged the cap to cover their hair and changed it to black. This was to satisfy the bishops who wanted them to look like nuns.

Let’s clarify a myth. The habit does not always protect you from unwanted attention, sexual, violent or other.

One note about Franciscan women: we have many versions of the habit among our women. The reason is simple. Clare wrote that each house is to decide what it wants to wear. When deciding, they are to consider culture, climate, work, cost, modesty, and [get this] the preferences of the sisters. Our order was the only order where the founders dictated that there should be some kind of habit, but that we were to choose what it should be and that our preference has to be factored into the decision. Talk about democracy back in the 13th century! No other order had this freedom until the Jesuits.

 

[Aramis]

I finished looking at the pictures. I think that if you take away the headpieces, the tunics themselves are not bad. They could probably be a little less poofy to save money. Cloth is expensive. It costs a lot of money to make a habit. Our own habit costs about $300.00. It costs a lot of money to look poor. LOL Go figure that one out.

There was a time when cloth was inexpensive and seamstresses and tailors were many. That’s no longer the case. Now you have to send out to a company for a habit. If they went to something that is wash and wear, with less stuff on the head, it would work to their advantage.

$300 is about 40 hours of base level labor in the US - when we look at the medieval costs, in modern dollars, your habit would be about 100 hours of semi-skilled labor - shearing, spinning, weaving - and a dozen of skilled (cutting, sewing). It’s a bargain compared to what it would have been back then!

And I’ve worn equally complex and initially uncomfortable garments.

Those habits were daily wear when adopted. People will likely look at some of the non-habit houses, with some rule for a variation on the clerical suit or ladies’ suit, and in 500 years, think it as bizarre and uncomfortable looking. When you wear it daily, it becomes a second skin…

I don’t know that I’d be a good mix with the consecrated religious life… but the uniform is a non-issue.

 

[katy]

Not meaning to be contentious, but still puzzled. Those habits on the website look fairly simple to me. Why not just take one apart, make a pattern, buy some cloth, and sew it up? Does rope from the hardware store cost $35? To my eye, it looks like a 4-H project. I’m talking present-day fabrics and simplified habits, not the ones in the original photos of days gone by.

 

[Cat]

Not meaning to be contentious, but still puzzled. Those habits on the website look fairly simple to me. Why not just take one apart, make a pattern, buy some cloth, and sew it up? Does rope from the hardware store cost $35? To my eye, it looks like a 4-H project. I’m talking present-day fabrics and simplified habits, not the ones in the original photos of days gone by.

If you sew, sure, it looks simple.

If you do not sew, then what you are saying is a completely foreign language. You may as well be telling me to repair a rocket. I wouldn’t know what to do with a pattern if I had one. :nope:

Sewing is an art that is rapidly disappearing in the U.S. Frankly, I’m surprised that the fabric stores stay in business. I know only two people who sew, and one of them doesn’t do it anymore, and the other only sews when she is paid.

 

[JRKH]

If you sew, sure, it looks simple.

If you do not sew, then what you are saying is a completely foreign language. You may as well be telling me to repair a rocket. I wouldn’t know what to do with a pattern if I had one. :nope:

Sewing is an art that is rapidly disappearing in the U.S. Frankly, I’m surprised that the fabric stores stay in business. I know only two people who sew, and one of them doesn’t do it anymore, and the other only sews when she is paid.

I repeat my earlier observation that this seems like a wonderful opportunity for a monastery looking for a way to support itself.

Of course on the other hand…I wonder how many people are gainfully employed, who wouldn’t otherwise be, because religious communities purchase their habits from them.

Just some thoughts.

Peace
James

 

[TimothyH]

Actually - it’s not too hard to figure out…
The reason St Francis dressed as he did was because it was the cheapest.
However - over time - as people began to associate a certain mode of dress with the Franciscans, this mode was maintained - even after it ceased to be the cheapest way to go.
Such is the downfall of (dare I say it?) “habits”.

I like this mode of thinking. It seems that monasteries actually do look for ways to support themselves. We see monasteries that make everything from Jams and Coffee to Caskets and Coffins. So why not habits?
Or perhaps there already are such groups.

Kind of off topic but - - -

Peace
James

Many monasteries have their own tailor shops and make their own habits. Father Luke Kot, now 103 years old, was the tailor for the Monastery of Our Lady of the Holy Spirit in Conyers Georgia for many years.

After ordination, he took on a role that allowed him to be that simple monk. Father Luke cut, sewed and repaired clothes as the tailor for more than 50 years and was responsible for the monks’ distinctive black and white habits. Read More…

The Rule of St. Benedict states that the monks are to be self-sufficient to the extent that it is possible. The Cistercians near me have a large garden, retreat house, fudge and fruitcake factories, a gift shop with an amazing selection of books, a museum, they sculpt bonzai trees and have opened a “green” cemetery where you can be buried naturally, without embalming fluids - just wrapped in a sheet and returned to the earth.

The production of many of the jellies, coffees and beers which monasteries sell however, are subcontracted and made to their specifications. Raising sheep for wool or growing cotton and processing it into fabric is labor intensive and highly impractical in most places. Its cheaper for them just to buy the fabric.

I think the Cistercians in Nunraw, Scottland raise cattle but many of the monasteries that used to be way out in the country are now surrounded by suburban sprawl.

If I were a religious woman, I’d like a nice simple habit like the Dominican Sisters of St. Cecilia.

-Tim-

 

[OraLabora]

Many monasteries have their own tailor shops and make their own habits. Father Luke Kot, now 103 years old, was the tailor for the Monastery of Our Lady of the Holy Spirit in Conyers Georgia for many years.

After ordination, he took on a role that allowed him to be that simple monk. Father Luke cut, sewed and repaired clothes as the tailor for more than 50 years and was responsible for the monks’ distinctive black and white habits. Read More…

The Rule of St. Benedict states that the monks are to be self-sufficient to the extent that it is possible. The Cistercians near me have a large garden, retreat house, fudge and fruitcake factories, a gift shop with an amazing selection of books, a museum, they sculpt bonzai trees and have opened a “green” cemetery where you can be buried naturally, without embalming fluids - just wrapped in a sheet and returned to the earth.

The production of many of the jellies, coffees and beers which monasteries sell however, are subcontracted and made to their specifications. Raising sheep for wool or growing cotton and processing it into fabric is labor intensive and highly impractical in most places. Its cheaper for them just to buy the fabric.

I think the Cistercians in Nunraw, Scottland raise cattle but many of the monasteries that used to be way out in the country are now surrounded by suburban sprawl.

If I were a religious woman, I’d like a nice simple habit like the Dominican Sisters of St. Cecilia.

-Tim-

Ditto. At Saint-Benoît-du-Lac, Fr. André is the tailor (he’s approx. 80 now). He tailors for the community but also the community sells his works through the abbey gift shop. I’m thinking of buying an alb from him (the “vestment” of all baptized) for use in my small oratory.

The monks are multi-talented, he’s also the abbey’s horticulturalist and is responsible for the lovely flower arrangements around the altar and the abbey’s 3 icons (Mary with baby Jesus, St. Benedict, and St. Scholastica).

 

[bcuster]

…I vaguely remember seeing the Sisters of Mercy in their old habit; but I can’t recall where. It was many years ago. I was struck by the double collar with the starch. I’ve always wondered why men’s habits were never that complicated. …

Traditional habits of women religious

I always thought women’s habits were complicated and uncomfortable as a penance. In the community I belonged to, they were made of serge wool. They were taken apart and washed 2 times a year and then resewn. When they faded on one side they “turned” them and wore the inside out. They were meant to be serviceable. When this order changed to a “modified” habit they chose polyester double knit for the ease of washing and drying. The fabric didn’t “breathe” and cause discomfort.

 

[ServusHumilis]

That is a really, really good answer. Thank you for posting this.

I didn’t know about that. One priests opinion doesn’t remove this requirement from the bible (1 Cor 11:2-16) and I also wonder if the vatican still suggests this. Women must wear a veil while meeting the pope.

 

[JReducation]

Not meaning to be contentious, but still puzzled. Those habits on the website look fairly simple to me. Why not just take one apart, make a pattern, buy some cloth, and sew it up? Does rope from the hardware store cost $35? To my eye, it looks like a 4-H project. I’m talking present-day fabrics and simplified habits, not the ones in the original photos of days gone by.

I repeat my earlier observation that this seems like a wonderful opportunity for a monastery looking for a way to support itself.

Of course on the other hand…I wonder how many people are gainfully employed, who wouldn’t otherwise be, because religious communities purchase their habits from them.

Just some thoughts.

Peace
James

But here is the thing. Sewing is a monastic custom. For example, in our case, our founder jettisoned monasticism. We don’t live in real monasteries. We live in friaries. Friaries don’t have workshops.

If we did have workshops, who would do the sewing? We don’t have lay brothers. A brother can be ordained or not ordained; but in either case, he is actively involved in some apostolic activity outside of the religious house. He is in solemn vows, not simple vows, as would be the case of lay brothers. Therefore, he would not engage in the type of service that a lay brother is called to do.

Remember, the vocation to be a lay brother is a very special vocation. It does not exist in most Franciscan communities, since it was not part of the early foundation. There were no lay brothers. The original foundation consisted of 11 brothers, one of which was a priest. But they were all religious brothers in solemn vows, none were lay brothers. A tailor shop would be as out of place in a one of our houses as would a bakery.

One has to be very careful not to do harm to the charism of individual religious communities. For example, to take a bakery or a farm away from Cistercians who have one and replace it with a soup kitchen and orphanage is a distortion and would do irreparable harm to the community. The Cistercians in that house would run the risk of contamination that could potentially make them an apostolic community.

Part of the renewal of religious life is for communities to find their original place and way of life.

As to that $300 habit, I have to put in a plug for those folks. Their habits are very well made. The quality is good and so is the craftsmanship. They are absolutely wonderful to us. They are patient, honest, and helpful.

As many of you know, we became independent only a short while ago. We’re still experimenting with the habit. At present, we have three habits going at the same time. These folks have been very helpful in making suggestions. Remember, we know nothing about sewing or quality of fabrics.

For the person who asked about the cord being purchased at a hardware store, the answer is negative. The cord that we wear is not sold in hardware stores. It has to be made of pure lambswool. The thickness must be no greater than .75 cm. The color must be non-bleached white. That’s why is often has a yellowish look to it. It becomes yellow as you wash it. It has to be braided. This was handed down by Bonaventure in the 13th century. The tunic itself can be of any color or fabric. The cut and style can be of the community’s choosing. There was never a prescription for the tunic. There was always a very strict prescription for the cord. It is the cord that makes it uniquely Franciscan, just as it is the cream and black that makes the OP habit uniquely Dominican.

The sisters’ tunics were just about the same. It was the headgear that was complicated.

I noticed that people have mentioned obedience. Did you know that most habits are not commanded under obedience?

I can’t think of a single rule that makes the habit a matter of obedience. Habits were always a matter of custom, not obedience itself. I guess one can say obedience to custom.

 

[Avila123]

Brother Jay, I know this is off topic but I have been curious about why some Franciscan brother sport long beards? Is it the man thing or is there another reason?

I confess to having the urge to rid the world of beards.

 

[JRKH]

But here is the thing. Sewing is a monastic custom. For example, in our case, our founder jettisoned monasticism. We don’t live in real monasteries. We live in friaries. Friaries don’t have workshops.

If we did have workshops, who would do the sewing? We don’t have lay brothers. A brother can be ordained or not ordained; but in either case, he is actively involved in some apostolic activity outside of the religious house. He is in solemn vows, not simple vows, as would be the case of lay brothers. Therefore, he would not engage in the type of service that a lay brother is called to do.

Remember, the vocation to be a lay brother is a very special vocation. It does not exist in most Franciscan communities, since it was not part of the early foundation. There were no lay brothers. The original foundation consisted of 11 brothers, one of which was a priest. But they were all religious brothers in solemn vows, none were lay brothers. A tailor shop would be as out of place in a one of our houses as would a bakery.

One has to be very careful not to do harm to the charism of individual religious communities. For example, to take a bakery or a farm away from Cistercians who have one and replace it with a soup kitchen and orphanage is a distortion and would do irreparable harm to the community. The Cistercians in that house would run the risk of contamination that could potentially make them an apostolic community.

Brother - I think you misunderstood me. I saw earlier where you made reference to not being monastic and I was not specifying that your order make the habits…only that a religious order (monastics) do so. As I said, such places are constantly looking for ways to support themselves.
Of course I don’t know if they would be any cheaper…

As to that $300 habit, I have to put in a plug for those folks. Their habits are very well made. The quality is good and so is the craftsmanship. They are absolutely wonderful to us. They are patient, honest, and helpful.

As many of you know, we became independent only a short while ago. We’re still experimenting with the habit. At present, we have three habits going at the same time. These folks have been very helpful in making suggestions. Remember, we know nothing about sewing or quality of fabrics.

For the person who asked about the cord being purchased at a hardware store, the answer is negative. The cord that we wear is not sold in hardware stores. It has to be made of pure lambswool. The thickness must be no greater than .75 cm. The color must be non-bleached white. That’s why is often has a yellowish look to it. It becomes yellow as you wash it. It has to be braided. This was handed down by Bonaventure in the 13th century. The tunic itself can be of any color or fabric. The cut and style can be of the community’s choosing. There was never a prescription for the tunic. There was always a very strict prescription for the cord. It is the cord that makes it uniquely Franciscan, just as it is the cream and black that makes the OP habit uniquely Dominican.

The sisters’ tunics were just about the same. It was the headgear that was complicated.

Here you actually bring in a very good point point that we have overlooked somewhat. An item that is initially expensive but of high quality may actually be cheaper in the long run. It sounds like this may be the case with these pieces.
On the other hand…being overly specific - without good cause - can also drive up costs.
Your description of the cord being a case in point. Such specific requirements can quickly drive up costs when something “off the shelf” would serve just as well. And for what benefit?

I’m not trying to be a pill - but I spent many years in industry - and in the quality field and such things just catch my eye.

I noticed that people have mentioned obedience. Did you know that most habits are not commanded under obedience?

I can’t think of a single rule that makes the habit a matter of obedience. Habits were always a matter of custom, not obedience itself. I guess one can say obedience to custom.

Well you got me there brother…I plead stupid…

Happy New Year

Peace
James

 

[JReducation]

Brother - I think you misunderstood me. I saw earlier where you made reference to not being monastic and I was not specifying that your order make the habits…only that a religious order (monastics) do so. As I said, such places are constantly looking for ways to support themselves.
Of course I don’t know if they would be any cheaper…

I didn’t get the impression that you were. I think that some people don’t really know the difference in forms of religious life. Your post was a good segway to introduce this. Sorry . . . did not mean to impugn your good name. You’re not the type who points fingers. I’ve read your posts with great respect and admiration for a long time. I believe that I’ve gotten to know a little about you.

Here you actually bring in a very good point point that we have overlooked somewhat. An item that is initially expensive but of high quality may actually be cheaper in the long run. It sounds like this may be the case with these pieces.
On the other hand…being overly specific - without good cause - can also drive up costs.
Your description of the cord being a case in point. Such specific requirements can quickly drive up costs when something “off the shelf” would serve just as well. And for what benefit?

Ahhhh, but here my little brother, is the wonder and mystery of the consecrated life. We don’t do things because they have any observable benefit. Sometimes, the benefit is invisible to the eyes of the body, but very visible to eyes of the soul.

As I said, Francis never gave us a real habit. But he did make a big deal about wearing the cord. He mentions the cord in several writings, whereas he only mentions the habit when he writes about novices. The cord had a very special significance to Francis, one which we will not know until we reach heaven. So says Bonaventure.

Bonaventure throws the card on the table. We remain faithful to this one simple (not so cheap) preference of our founder, out of pure love for him (Francis). We trust Bonaventure’s guidance on the matter, because he was the most faithful son of St. Francis. If ever the Rule was lost, one can reconstruct it by reading the life of Bonaventure.

In his doctoral dissertation, Bonaventure wrote about Francis that he is the perfect disciple after the Virgin Mary. He is the perfect teacher of the Gospel.

In his letters to the friars, Francis commands his friars to obey him, even after his death. He curses to hell any friar who disobeys him. and commands the superiors to ask the pope to excommunicate a friar who disagrees with him (Francis). Some people have put this to the test, thinking that superiors and popes would not follow through

SURPRISE SURPRISE!

The first person to be excommunicated as heretic for disagreeing with Francis’ interpretation of poverty was a superior general. The poor man had to live his life in exile doing penance in a cave.

The cord has become an issue of contention between many of us friars and some Franciscan sisters as well as the Secular Franciscans. The cord was very dear to Francis. Some of them have casually cast it aside.

THIS IS PERSONAL, NOT DOCTRINAL

I am of the belief that one no only loves the community that one enters, but one also loves the vision of the founder, no matter how sinful the founder was, as was the case of the LC. The founder had his issues, but his vision for the mission of the institute is valid.

If one simply replaces that vision with one’s own, is it still the same community?

I believe that that it is no longer the same.

Well you got me there brother…I plead stupid…

You are not stupid my friend. I have found you to be wise, kind, honest, and open to listening. A stupid man is one who hears, but does not listen to what he hears.

Happy New Year

 

[Hey_Jude_1994]

My favorite female habits are those of the Dominican sisters over in Nashville. They’re gorgeous, yet simple.

As a man, I can’t say I would ever want to wear the habit of a female religious! LOL!

I do personally, when I see a priest in a cassock or a religious in a habit, I am inspired. It strikes a deeply Catholic chord in my soul that sets our tradition apart. It’s a beautiful witness to a different life than that we lead in the modern world and I think that’s wonderful. I’d rather be able to point out a priest or sister rather than having to guess.

As a young person (I’m only 19), I am personally more attracted to orders that either A.) Have a habit or B.) Allow an optional habit.

Obviously they are not conducive to all types of work, and should be adjusted accordingly, but I have yet to see a ministry that would require the complete abandonment of a habit all together.

 

[Hey_Jude_1994]

Regarding what is stopping me from wearing a veil at Holy Mass, I don’t think my desire to not “do” my hair is sufficient reason to don a veil at Holy Mass.

About 20 years ago, during a Bible study, we asked our priest why the Church stopped requiring women to cover their heads, and if we would be allowed to wear them on our own…he answered, “Don’t try to be holier than the Church!” That has stuck with me. If the Church asks me to do it, I will gladly do it, but since the Church does not ask, I won’t.

I’m just scrolling through this thread…veils are actually encouraged by the Church. They’re not required, but encouraged. In fact, women still must wear black and veils when meeting the Pope (the exception being Catholic Queens who are allowed to wear white).

 

[LightBound]

I’m just scrolling through this thread…veils are actually encouraged by the Church. They’re not required, but encouraged. In fact, women still must wear black and veils when meeting the Pope (the exception being Catholic Queens who are allowed to wear white).

No, it doesn’t have to be a veil, but if you are not a “Head of State” (and are female), you are to wear a headcovering (doesn’t have to be a long lacy mantilla or a doily) if you are blessed to have a private audience with the Pope. While Michelle Obama and Laura Bush are photographed in black mantillas, they were following the fashion trend of our first Catholic First Lady, Jackie Kennedy, who opted for the mantilla over her traditional pillbox hat when she met the Pope.

Nowadays, most women who are spouses of heads of states would opt for the Princess Diana or “Duchess Catherine” (Kate Middleton) type of hat to match their suit when meeting our Pontiff. This has to do with “protocol” as our Pope is the head of state (for the Vatican). Similar rules of etiquette exist when meeting other heads of state, such as not wearing all white or all black, etc. (except, as you mentioned, Queens being appropriate in all white).

 

[Hey_Jude_1994]

I also thought that, for the most part, sisters were to be “in the world” and not to dress in ways that would make them “stand out”. Isn’t that why Mother Teresa chose a sari style habit for her order, so that her sisters ‘blended in’ ? .

EXCELLENT! Someone brought this up!
Mother Teresa readily stressed the importance of the habit to her sisters!
She chose a sari style that was representative of a consecrated woman. It would be easily recognizable in the Indian culture to assume that a MC was an unmarried, consecrated virgin. Much the way most Westerners react when we see a woman in religious garb (tunic and veil). Mother Teresa recognized the need to be accessible to the culture, but at the same time, set apart as a visible witness to the internal sacrifices and charism of their vows.

 

[Hey_Jude_1994]

Not a specifically a veil, but a headcovering, as the Pope is a head of state and it’s formal protocol that ladies wear a hat or covering of some sort. Just as those that meet the Queen of England do not shake hands with her unless they have on gloves. The reason the mantilla/veil is commonly used with first ladies is because Jacqueline Kennedy started the trend by wearing one when she met with the Pope.

Well yes, but the same is said of the Church. While the veil was a widely accepted norm (it’s just easier), hats were also acceptable for women to wear in Church.