WOW! JW have confused me more!

[KathleenGee]

Jesus referred to Himself as Son of Man more than Son of God, Peter used it right before the Last Supper…

I agree with all that you say about Him…and the other part is that we are made genetically to be divinized…and Christ, as the humble servant Who washed the feet of the disciples, is the connector to our divinity with Him through the Eucharist…He gives us His body and blood to become divine.

The Eucharist has been the center of worship since the beginning of Christianity…the internet has been a tremendous tool in acquiring information…I myself and many others are returning to study our Christian roots…I have been studying liturgical history as well on the side…so busy…I take a piece at a time…

So what I am also getting at is that we do not relate to Scripture as a book…and you inferred in your comments that you also note there was no printing press…so our churches used stained glass windows, paintings, statues to further communicate in art form catechesis…teaching Christ…at the heart of catechesis is Christ Himself…

You can’t separate Christian people and their history from Scripture…the next stage of the Bible…is now the Church…with its same drama as the Old Testament…struggles, establishment, war and destruction, persecution, peace and reconstruction, then corruption, and the whole cycle begins again…you will find many, many people faithful in the Gospel and those who failed the Gospel in church history…

The Church is the Bride of Christ, a living and breathing and aspiring sacrament in itself, we journeying together as church to approach the New Jerusalem.

Our liturgy and all the form in it is a total reflection of the Word of God in ordinary life.

James, have you ever been to a Catholic Mass…I work all day now…so back later…

God bless!

 

[johnpauls]

Once again, you evade the issue of Christ being called God.

With all due respect, you are woefully misinformed about Constantine’s role at Nicaea. Perhaps you should read this and become enlightened as to what actually happened there.

catholic.com/thisrock/2009/0902tbt.asp

Is it that Trinitarians fall short? Or is it the bias against the Church who defined it that convinces you not to accept it?

I’m curious, how do you get around Thomas calling Christ God in John 20:28?

Lets not forget Isaiah calling Jesus Mighty God at Isaiah 9:6. However, did the Jews think and teach that they were receiving Almightily God for the messiah? No! Jesus is never referred to as Almightily God - but specifically Mighty.

Satan is referred to as a god. We are referred to as a god. Paul was referred to as a god. There is one Almightily God, and that title is shared by no one except God the Father.

Also, your comments on Constantine’s role in the council of Nicaea is not supported by secular historians. Yes, you can send me to a catholic site that places a different spin on what happened (out of necessity), but there is a good amount of non-doctinal history on what happened that paints a very different picture. When certain bishops disagreed with Constantine then, it was not the church that banished them - but Constantine. The church is who later sought to negotiate a settlement of sorts between the bishops and the empire. History has Constantine’s hand all over the affairs of the church at that time.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Constantine expelled Arian Bishops? Yet, Constantine was baptized by an Arian Bishop, one that he had kept at his side as an adviser for many years. So I have always wondered what “side” people think Constantine was taking. (Seriously, not rhetorical of “going for the win”.)

 

[SteveVH]

The cannon of the bible that was endorsed by the church, was in fact directed by the Roman Emperor Constantine. Beyond the adoption of the trinity, the council of Nicaea approved the cannon that Constantine had put together. Also, other books that were considered to be added to the bible were ordered burned.

If I may ask, where are you getting your account of history? From Lorraine Boettner?

 

[johnpauls]

If I may ask, where are you getting your account of history? From Lorraine Boettner?

I dont even know who Lorraine Boettner is.

There is not a religion on the earth that doesn’t try to redefine or nudge history in a way to “soften” the reality of what actually occurred. I am not attacking catholics - just religion in general. They all do it.

 

[Nicea325]

I dont even know who Lorraine Boettner is.

There is not a religion on the earth that doesn’t try to redefine or nudge history in a way to “soften” the reality of what actually occurred. I am not attacking catholics - just religion in general. They all do it.

Give an example of such an event or process being softened?

 

[confusedius]

Would making heresy a capitol crime qualify?

James

 

[benidict]

BeDuhn does not comment about the Trinity itself, just the translation of the words many churches use to support the doctrine. He brings out in his book that many of the bible translations out there have skewed scripture to support the trinity. If he is right, and the bible does not support the trinity, then can the church teach a doctrine like that without scriptural support?? That is a dangerous thing.

Lets get one other thing straight. I am not a JW - nor am I suggesting that they have the “truth” (as they say). I am simply commenting on the trinity issue, to which there are many groups who do not believe in the trinity.

It has always amazed me how willing people are to believe in the trinity based upon such small and skewed evidence. In Jesus’ words you can plainly - YES PLAINLY - see that Jesus gives greater authority and worship to Almighty God the Father. The fact that trinitarians take a few scriptures to definitively prove otherwise amazes me.

I present this basic question. Without prior dogma on the subject, do you think someone reading the bible for the first time would come away with Jesus being the same person as God the Father? Though it might be an experiment never able to occur, I would say you need a lot of predisposition on the subject to read scripture and come away with the belief Jesus is God the Father. After all, it flys in the face of simple logic and understanding.

Also, let us not forget. The very body of bishops who set the dogma of the trinity as an official church teaching was called together and presided over by a non-christian Roman Emperor. Not a great start to doctrine if you ask me.

We only use a few scriptures my friend? there is more than a few, and quite a few statements by our Lord, and His Apostles in the New testament that cleary show He is God in the flesh. Not to mention the witness of Nature itself. There is enough, even without the bible to give us a glimpse into the nature of the Creator. To not believe in the Trinity flys in the face of simple logic and understanding.

 

[benidict]

Would making heresy a capitol crime qualify?

James

If you are refering to some of our more darker spots in history, it is interesting to note, that people being held on secular offenses, would sometimes blaspheme, simply because they knew they could get a more fair trial by the Church. Whew! :coolinoff: Peace

 

[pablope]

BeDuhn does not comment about the Trinity itself, just the translation of the words many churches use to support the doctrine. He brings out in his book that many of the bible translations out there have skewed scripture to support the trinity. If he is right, and the bible does not support the trinity, then can the church teach a doctrine like that without scriptural support?? That is a dangerous thing.

Also, let us not forget. The very body of bishops who set the dogma of the trinity as an official church teaching was called together and presided over by a non-christian Roman Emperor. Not a great start to doctrine if you ask me.

From John 14:

John 14

1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know** my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?**

 

[confusedius]

If you are refering to some of our more darker spots in history, it is interesting to note, that people being held on secular offenses, would sometimes blaspheme, simply because they knew they could get a more fair trial by the Church. Whew! :coolinoff: Peace

Just the first example that came to my mind, benidict. I agree that “nudging” takes place all the time- what is the quote, “history is written by the winners”?

Interesting tidbit on the secular offenses- had never heard that…

James

 

[benidict]

Just the first example that came to my mind, benidict. I agree that “nudging” takes place all the time- what is the quote, “history is written by the winners”?

Interesting tidbit on the secular offenses- had never heard that…

James

LOL! Its worth looking into about the secular courts of those times James. Also it might be helpful to remember. If the Catholics had not won, you may very well be worshipping at a mosque, and living under Islamic Law today… Peace my friend.

 

[KathleenGee]

‘True’ to Benedict.

So much of early Christianity was being destroyed – people and churches – by Roman emperors…the last remaining ones the most brutal, destroying most of the sacred dwellings.

Constantine was not baptized until near his death…He had great esteem for Christianity. As secular rulers in past destroyed most edifices, Constantine restored Christianity through building churches for Christians and wanting them to be built with a high altar. A million pagans converted, and brought with them genuflections, kissing sacred objects, and so on. (Note what we call sacramentals—these were in use in the times of acts–believers taking handkerchiefs to touch blessed objects to bring home, others carrying a picture of Jude on their person)…the need for the believer to have something concrete…a human need.

We have pictures of loved ones in our homes…most people couldn’t read in those days…the churches and other structures catechized through pictographs, sketchings, so the people learned orally and visually.

Constantine litigated Sunday for Christian worship and a day of rest for all people, and he was not baptized at that time. But he established the right of Christianity to exist in a prior hostile world where living under persecution or fear of being ratted on by your neighbor for your beliefs was an ordinary Christian in the pre-Constantine era.

So we have much to be thankful to Constantine.

 

[KathleenGee]

(After 9/11, I came across a Muslim timeline going back from its beginning all the way up to the 1700’s and beyond. There were wars, skirmishes, assassinations just about every 3 years.

Between 634 up to 732 with the Battle of Poitiers, France, Islam made military advances. Egypt, Syria, and Palestine used to be teeming Christian populations. The Muslims conquered Damascus, the Byzantines in the Battle of Yarmuk, Iraq, they annexed Jerusalem in 638, 639-642 Egypt was conquered, within that Syria and Palestine came under Muslim control. Then between 643-707 North Africa fell, also priorly Christian but whose populations were weakened by the bubonic plague and heresies. In 644, Cyprus, Tripoli, Iran, Afghanistan fell. There were leadership battles. Then in 673, Constantinople – the seat of Eastern Christianity was besieged. The Dome of the Rock was built in Jerusalem in 691. Between 711-713 the lower Indus Valley fell to Islam through battle. The conquering of Spain took 2 years, 711-713. The Muslims were stopped in Poitiers, France in 732.

In 789, Morroco fell to Islam, in 809, Sardinia, in 831, the capture of Palermo, Italy, and raids on Southern Italy. Destruction of Christian houses of prayers happened in 850. Then in 837 Sicily was conquered, and there were raids in Corsica, Italy and France.

In 937, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was burned down in Jerusalem. Prior to that the Ikhshid bragged in a letter to Emperor Romanus how he controlled the Christian holy places. In 1040, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was built by a benovolent Muslim ruler in Jerusalem. But later a persecuting Muslim leader of Islam had power and began persecuting the Christians again in Jerusalem.

Then somewhat afterwards, the Church finally rose up to address hundreds of years of attacks on Christians and conquering and decimation of Christian peoples of various countries and regions…

The Turks advanced into Europe in the late 1500’s, and the Battle of Lepanto finally brought peace and protection through the prayers of Mary of the Rosary to Europe. It didn’t end in this era…Smyrna, the great Church going back to ancient times, was finally burned to the ground in 1922 while American ships stood by.)

Living under constant siege, be it another religion or tribes of barbarians, the Church has endured. The Holy Spirit is with us, the apostolic faith has been passed down all this time, and the Church ecclesastics work to assimilate new believers, and integrate Christianity into their culture. Theology helps us understand the meaning of the Word of God for us today.

 

[confusedius]

KathleenGee:

I have enjoyed reading, and pondering upon, your posts. Had religious history been a subject in high school, I would have jumped out the window. Now, significantly later in life, it has become very interesting to me!

Yes, I have been to Catholic Mass a number of times. I grew up in a Catholic neighborhood and have a great deal of respect for many aspects of the faith. My three children attended freshman through senior years of high school at a Catholic school, and my grandchildren currently attend also.

During that time, we were Methodists, and they attended that church. My older daughter married a catholic and my most recent visit to the Church was last fall to celebrate her confirmation.

Sorry to interrupt the thread, but can’t figure out how to PM here. Hope that answers your question.

James

 

[johnpauls]

We only use a few scriptures my friend? there is more than a few, and quite a few statements by our Lord, and His Apostles in the New testament that cleary show He is God in the flesh. Not to mention the witness of Nature itself. There is enough, even without the bible to give us a glimpse into the nature of the Creator. To not believe in the Trinity flys in the face of simple logic and understanding.

This whole statement is so backwards I don’t even know where to start. I guess the last one, “to not believe in the trinity flys in the face of simple logic and understanding”. Are you seriously telling me that the Trinity is simpler and more logically understandable than just believing there is One God the Father and One Son who is the Messiah?

Wow - most Trinitarians at least realize the complexity of the doctrine. It is truly a first to hear of that doctrine defined as “simple”.

 

[johnpauls]

From John 14:

John 14

1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know** my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?**

Keep reading bud.

28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

The Trinity is based upon the doctrine that no one “head” is greater than the other. How can Jesus say the Father is greater than he is?

Also, how about John 1:18. This would seem to contradict your referenced scripture if Jesus was God.

18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

If no one has see God at ANY time, how could Thomas seen God the Father in reality???

How about answering this: The Trinity does not believe any of the “heads” were created. Yet, in Col. 1:15,16 it says:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Genesis says we were created in God’s image, and here is says Jesus was created in God’s image - the firstborn. If Jesus is God, how could you ever call him "firstborn’??

 

[T_More]

Keep reading bud.

28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

The Trinity is based upon the doctrine that no one “head” is greater than the other. How can Jesus say the Father is greater than he is?

Also, how about John 1:18. This would seem to contradict your referenced scripture if Jesus was God.

18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

If no one has see God at ANY time, how could Thomas seen God the Father in reality???

How about answering this: The Trinity does not believe any of the “heads” were created. Yet, in Col. 1:15,16 it says:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Genesis says we were created in God’s image, and here is says Jesus was created in God’s image - the firstborn. If Jesus is God, how could you ever call him "firstborn’??

Did not God call David His firstborn? He certainly wasn’t firstborn in his own family.

 

[KathleenGee]

Not intending to sound repetitious to others here, Jesus fulfills Melchizedek as the perfect priest, the former a mysterious figure to begin with, Jesus fulfills the person of Abel who offers God his firstfruits of the labor of his hands…Jesus being the first fruit of creation itself, and the first fruit of Jesus to us is His Eucharist…

 

[johnpauls]

Did not God call David His firstborn? He certainly wasn’t firstborn in his own family.

Yes, but it certainly does not mean that David is the same person as God - does it?