Writings of the Fathers

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Stephentlig

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Why have I written this in here? your probably wondering, but I feel that we have never been given the writings of the fathers in their fullness within the church, and I cant understand it. Our eastern brothers have a great love for tradition, but the church seems to keep the writings of the fathers in their fullness from us and give only to modern scholars who wish to twist their sayings to suit their own modern theologies which are a lie. We are given tradition in short, but never in length. would you agree or disagree?
 
What do you mean? The writtings of the Fathers are out there for anyone to read.
 
Jimmy Akin is also coming out with a book called The Fathers Know Best, available on catholic.com.

fermat

p.s. Jimmy, where’s my check?
 
Stephentlig said:
Why have I written this in here? your probably wondering, but I feel that we have never been given the writings of the fathers in their fullness within the church, and I cant understand it. Our eastern brothers have a great love for tradition, **but the church seems to keep the writings of the fathers in their fullness from us and give only to modern scholars who wish to twist their sayings to suit their own modern theologies **which are a lie. We are given tradition in short, but never in length. would you agree or disagree?
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The CCC is replete with quotes from and references to the early Church Fathers. 🙂 I think one of them said “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.”

I would say that in the Latin parish I’m part of and in retreats offered in the Diocese you’re more likely to hear Thich Nhat Hanh or Chief Seattle quoted, and both are wise and noteworthy teachers, than to hear Polycarp or St. John Chrysostom… if that’s what you’re getting at.

Seems like you are thinking of the Latin Church. Is there a particular reason for posting in the Eastern Catholicism section? Or perhaps you find this throughout the Church East and West. I don’t find it in the East, but may be the circle I travel in.
 
Stephentlig said:
Why have I written this in here? your probably wondering, but I feel that we have never been given the writings of the fathers in their fullness within the church, and I cant understand it. Our eastern brothers have a great love for tradition, but the church seems to keep the writings of the fathers in their fullness from us and give only to modern scholars who wish to twist their sayings to suit their own modern theologies which are a lie. We are given tradition in short, but never in length. would you agree or disagree?
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I agree the Church Fathers should be studied and referenced with more vehemency and frequency than they are right now.
Nothing wrong with referencing Non-Catholic writers to advance the cause of the Gospel and the Truth----but The Fathers, particularly the Desert Fathers, people like Tertullian, John Chrysostom, etc., should be definitely be front and center.👍
 
Stephen, I’m writing a book that may or may not answer your question. The question about the Eastern Fathers and Western Fathers are really not well known in each Church. Sure the Catholics know about their own and the Eastern Church knows its own but by and large they are not well known to each other. One poster mentioned that you can read about them but really the question that needs to be asked is why are the Eastern Fathers not taught in the West? The same can be said for the Latin Fathers. Why are they not taught in the East? It is a matter really of exposure. Orthodox tend not to be exposed to the Catholic Church Fathers. Even the Catholics and I mean the average Catholic is never exposed to the Eastern Fathers. There could be good reasons why. I was taught as so many of us that the Church, both Catholic and Orthodox was united in the beginning. I thought about this for a long time and I have reached to these conclusions. I do not believe the Church was united as it was taught from the beginning. I mean geographically we were thousands of miles apart and also there were 2 languages. Catholics did not know the Easterners back then and the Easterners did not know the Catholics. We did not go into each others Churches back then. People did not travel back then like they do today. There was no intercommunion. The only times when the 2 Churches really met were at those Ecumenical Councils. But by and large the one did not know the other. It was if God was raising 2 independent Churches, one been Catholic and the other Orthodox. They were both raised by the same Holy Spirit into the same Sacramental life yet each Church grew up independantly from the other. The only common witness they both had were their Apostolic origins and the their sacraments which they celebrated. They did not learn from each other because they were so far apart I mean geographically but they both possess the same Holy Spirit which guided both of them into similar Sacraments. God was raising 2 unique individualities. one in the West and one in the East. To the Western Church God gave a femimine quality and characterists and qualities which defined her. This is the Catholic Church. To the Eastern Church God gave a masqueline identity and characteristics and qualities to which make up the Orthodox. God was raising these both so that one day He will bring them together as like unto a marriage. East and West will have their wedding day. They needed to reach maturity before God will bring them together. When a man marries his wife remember that he did not know her when she was 3 or 10 but until she reaches maturity. When 2 people are married they bring together their wealth and wisdom and their 2 minds and their children receive the best of 2 worlds. As of yet the Church of God has not been together. This marriage of East and West has not been taken yet. In fact these 2 were not married in the beginning and they were not together as we were taught. They grew up independent from the other so that now in the near future this marriage God has been preparing will take place. What will be the advantage of the marriage? But the total wealth and wisdom of both East and West that has been accumulating from their Saints and their Devotions. It is interesting that these 2 Churches ( or individuals ) have fought before this special wedding day ( because the usual fighting occurs after you get married!! ). We the Church got it wrong. We were not united in the beginning. United I mean intercommunion. Sure we knew a bit about each other but come on we did not go into each others Churches. Why? Because God is planning this union now. Now the time has arrived for the 2 to have this communion this marriage. To answer your question about the Eastern Fathers is easy. God has waited this long so that both East and West, Orthodox and Catholic will enter into a marriage that really has never taken place. We were never together fully until now!! Soon you will see the greatest event that will take place, a marriage of both East and West. Soon both Orthodox and Catholic children will be exposed to the wealth and wisdom of both. This was the plan of God. We got it mixed up. What the West is lacking, the East will make up and complete it. What the East is lacking, the West will make up and complete it. It was always in the mind and plan of God to bring these 2 together just like He does when He brings a man and woman together.
 
5Loaves said:
Will your book have paragraphs? I’d welcome a format I could actually read… 🙂
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It likely will not. It was long ago explained to him how to use the “enter” key, and he still hasn’t caught on. Anyone can write a book with one paragraph, but who will publish it? 😃
 
trophybearer said:
It likely will not. It was long ago explained to him how to use the “enter” key, and he still hasn’t caught on. Anyone can write a book with one paragraph, but who will publish it? 😃
Click to expand...
Indeed. Indeed.:sad_yes:

If brother DavidKays is true to his intent, he will be quoting the Eastern and Western Fathers who did not use punctuation or pauses either. So he will have a 500+ page manuscript that consists of one very, VERY long paragraph.

Indeed. Indeed.:sad_yes:

😃

Blessings
 
DavidKays said:
Stephen, I’m writing a book that may or may not answer your question. The question about the Eastern Fathers and Western Fathers are really not well known in each Church. Sure the Catholics know about their own and the Eastern Church knows its own but by and large they are not well known to each other. One poster mentioned that you can read about them but really the question that needs to be asked is why are the Eastern Fathers not taught in the West? The same can be said for the Latin Fathers. Why are they not taught in the East? It is a matter really of exposure. Orthodox tend not to be exposed to the Catholic Church Fathers. Even the Catholics and I mean the average Catholic is never exposed to the Eastern Fathers. There could be good reasons why. I was taught as so many of us that the Church, both Catholic and Orthodox was united in the beginning. I thought about this for a long time and I have reached to these conclusions. I do not believe the Church was united as it was taught from the beginning. I mean geographically we were thousands of miles apart and also there were 2 languages. Catholics did not know the Easterners back then and the Easterners did not know the Catholics. We did not go into each others Churches back then. People did not travel back then like they do today. There was no intercommunion. The only times when the 2 Churches really met were at those Ecumenical Councils. But by and large the one did not know the other. It was if God was raising 2 independent Churches, one been Catholic and the other Orthodox. They were both raised by the same Holy Spirit into the same Sacramental life yet each Church grew up independantly from the other. The only common witness they both had were their Apostolic origins and the their sacraments which they celebrated. They did not learn from each other because they were so far apart I mean geographically but they both possess the same Holy Spirit which guided both of them into similar Sacraments. God was raising 2 unique individualities. one in the West and one in the East. To the Western Church God gave a femimine quality and characterists and qualities which defined her. This is the Catholic Church. To the Eastern Church God gave a masqueline identity and characteristics and qualities to which make up the Orthodox. God was raising these both so that one day He will bring them together as like unto a marriage. East and West will have their wedding day. They needed to reach maturity before God will bring them together. When a man marries his wife remember that he did not know her when she was 3 or 10 but until she reaches maturity. When 2 people are married they bring together their wealth and wisdom and their 2 minds and their children receive the best of 2 worlds. As of yet the Church of God has not been together. This marriage of East and West has not been taken yet. In fact these 2 were not married in the beginning and they were not together as we were taught. They grew up independent from the other so that now in the near future this marriage God has been preparing will take place. What will be the advantage of the marriage? But the total wealth and wisdom of both East and West that has been accumulating from their Saints and their Devotions. It is interesting that these 2 Churches ( or individuals ) have fought before this special wedding day ( because the usual fighting occurs after you get married!! ). We the Church got it wrong. We were not united in the beginning. United I mean intercommunion. Sure we knew a bit about each other but come on we did not go into each others Churches. Why? Because God is planning this union now. Now the time has arrived for the 2 to have this communion this marriage. To answer your question about the Eastern Fathers is easy. God has waited this long so that both East and West, Orthodox and Catholic will enter into a marriage that really has never taken place. We were never together fully until now!! Soon you will see the greatest event that will take place, a marriage of both East and West. Soon both Orthodox and Catholic children will be exposed to the wealth and wisdom of both. This was the plan of God. We got it mixed up. What the West is lacking, the East will make up and complete it. What the East is lacking, the West will make up and complete it. It was always in the mind and plan of God to bring these 2 together just like He does when He brings a man and woman together.
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Could you elaborate on the west favoring a feminine theology, while the east favored a more masculine theology? I am very fascinated.
 
notredame_999 said:
Could you elaborate on the west favoring a feminine theology, while the east favored a more masculine theology? I am very fascinated.
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Hi notredame. Thank you for your interest. For years I was wondering why God established an Eastern Church and a Western Church. Reading alot of books did not satisfy me so I decided to go to the source and I asked God. I wanted to know why the 2. Catholics could not satisfy my answer because their history had no bearing to the East. Oh Catholics told me alot that they thought were right but really they do not know the East. How could they? They did not live there! The same can be said of the East. We hardly knew the Catholics. Communication between the 2 were not that great back then not like it is today. About 100 years ago God did a particular thing unknown to most but tremondous for us. He took an entire Orthodox congregation and place them into a High Church of England. We grew up with Catholic practices and devotions much like the Catholic Church. We got exposed to how the West worships. At St.Peter’s Cathedral I had the opportunity to learn the rosary, practice the Stations, celebrate Mass alot, engaged in Adoration and Benediction, had the smells and the bells, learned abit of Latin, thought like a Catholic. Then about 10 years ago the Orthodox started a mission and now I am engaged with the newly formed Orthodox Church. These experiences gave me alot to think about and it is there that I found the answers. I discovered something about the West. The West thinks like a woman. Honestly. For instance I noticed that within a family while the husdband is at work he is dependant on his wife to disclipline the children. A woman can be quite different than a man when discliplining children. She needs to tell it as it is. No room for comfort. Then it dawned upon me that this is what the Catholic Church has. The West has feminine qualities that God gave to her so that the Catholic Church resembles more like a woman does in a marriage. To the East God gave masqueline qualities so that East resembles more like a man. The West as seen throughout her history was very tough on her children. Sin was seen as to be punished for and these qualities can be found in a marriage as seen through the woman. However the Eastern Church had manly qualities and treated the children much like a father will in a marriage. Let me explain further. One can say that the Western Church is much like the Blessed Virgin Mary with those feminine qualities that make her up. The Eastern Church is much like Our Lord Jesus Christ with those masqueline qualities that make Him up. You put both together and you get Jesus and Mary, the best of what masqueline and feminine qualities there is. For instance the Catholic Mass is centered on Jesus with the Holy Mother mayby mentioned once or twice in the Mass. See the woman talks alot about her man. In the East, Mary is mentioned over and over again, at least 15 times in the Liturgy. See the man talks alot his woman. While Catholics center their Liturgy on Jesus when they go out in the world they talk more about Mary. While Orthodox seemingly have Mary alot in their Liturgy the focal point in discussions outside the Liturgy is Jesus. While the Catholics center their Liturgical year around Jesus, the Eastern Church centers its Liturgical year around Mary! The Liturgical year in the Orthodox Church starts with her birthday in September and ends with Her Assumption on August 15. The Western Church is more involve with Justice and Law and the Eastern Church developed more towards Mercy and Growth. It was if God placed into the Catholic Church the same qualities that a woman has and He placed into the Orthodox Church the same qualities a man has. Why the Catholic Church can be severe towards her children is because She has these feminine ways. The Eastern Church tends to deal with Orthodox children differently. While the West tends to teach dogma after dogma so that you are saturated with tons of catechism the Eastern Church tends to teach children by allowing them to experience God. The East will want the Orthodox children to fall in love with Jesus and Mary. The West will like to teach about Jesus and Mary. The East then thinks like a man who wishes to experience God and the West thinks like a woman who wishes to learn from doctrines and dogmas. The 2 ways are OK before God. There are complimentary. Yet if you put both together you will have even a stronger relationship than if you only engage in only one. This was the plan of God. At the right moment He will bring these 2 together like bringing a man and woman together and this marriage will allow God to effectively give to His children the best of 2 worlds. An example of this can be seen in the movie " Teacher’s Pet " starring Doris Day and Clarke Gable. In a way Doris Day represents the Catholic Church and Clarke Gable represents the Orthodox. He does not like teachings and courses and says experience is the best teacher. Doris Day relies on the University and courses to make better newspaper people. To make this long story short ( its a great movie ) Clarke Gable eventuallies marries Doris Day admitting that school is also important and Doris also corrects herself and admits that experience can also produce effective teachings that she can’t find in her courses. This is simply what East and West can bring to each other. Hey Clarke Gable and Doris Day can make a great couple and yes so can the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. God will perform this marriage soon. Can you imagine what a honeymoon it will be!
 
trophybearer said:
It likely will not. It was long ago explained to him how to use the “enter” key, and he still hasn’t caught on. Anyone can write a book with one paragraph, but who will publish it? 😃
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Self publication is easy these days, it’s the distribution that’s the killer. 😃
 
I will like to mention that in a marriage you never try to change the other. You accept the other and respect their individuality and uniqueness. This can said also between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. You accept each other without changing the other. If I plan to change my wife it will not take long for the flying plates to come to my direction. No the same can be said for her. Don’t try to change him. Let each be. This was the mistake of our Churches. We need to respect each other and our individuality so that both Catholic and Orthodox will engage in a very healthy marriage. It is interesting some years ago when I overheard an Orthodox priest say about the Eastern Church when he said that this was a man’s church. In fact the men tend to outnumber the women at the Liturgy. Go to a Catholic Church and the reverse is true.
 
mardukm said:
Indeed. Indeed.:sad_yes:

If brother DavidKays is true to his intent, he will be quoting the Eastern and Western Fathers who did not use punctuation or pauses either. So he will have a 500+ page manuscript that consists of one very, VERY long paragraph.

Indeed. Indeed.:sad_yes:

😃

Blessings
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I understand where you and others are coming from, MardukM. believe me, I do. But remember, DavidKays is (by his own admission), Bipolar/Schiphrenic. Has it ever occurred to you and others here that maybe the sentence structure and “style” of David’s Posts may be due to that?

He has admitted (from another of his posts I remember) having problems expressing himself in posts.
I’m not saying necessarily congratulating him on his post style—and I’m also not saying his posting style is TOTALLY due to his Bipolar disorder; but it certainly may be PARTIALLY due to that.

I personally find his posts basically clear and logical; you just have to get past the fact his paragraphs have no spacing and he sometimes forgets his punctuations. If one actually takes the time to read his posts carefully, he does make sense. He also makes a lot of good points sometimes.

Actually, I sort of understand where he is coming from. I have Moderate to Severe OCD myself. Have had in one form or another for a good portion of my life. I take medication for it----it’s basically a “mental ritual” that I have to do most days OVER and OVER again. Sometimes the ritual can take hours. Sometimes I get it under control in a short amount of time. In any case, it is exhaustive and has sort of been the bane of my existence for years now.I also suffer from mild depression (which I do not take meds for). Also, I don’t pay attention to my surroundings when I’m doing the rituals, so that sort of spills over into a form of ADD. My greatest struggle is to stop doing the rituals and concentrating while attending the Liturgy at my Melkite Church. I try to get them over with before partaking of Communion----else I feel disrepectful towards my Lord and Savior. That may sound stupid to some, but that’s the nature of OCD for you. :o

It takes considerable effort to get my mind in order to get rid of the obsessive thoughts and rituals long enough to be able to type a coherent post in order to be understood. Like so many OCD sufferers, I have irrational fears-----one of them being “not understood.” My posts may reflect that in the way I try to make them as “detailed” as possible. You have no idea how much thought goes into every post I put in CAF—and I’ve had over 300 so far. So I must be doing something right. 👍

Not bad for somebody whose life has been sort of crippled by this. But I trust God unconditionally and his Plan for me, whatever it is. And Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior. And my beloved Melkite Faith. 🙂

So I wouldn’t be so dismissive of David----like I said, I sort of relate to what he’s going through.
Let’s just pray that he is able to make himself better understood. Like I pray to Christ that he will take away my OCD and make me be able to fulfill God’s plans better. A little Understanding and Christian Charity, please. :signofcross:
 
David,

I would like to read your post however… you must provide me a path of white space so that I can find my way.

:eek:
 
DavidKays said:
I will like to mention that in a marriage you never try to change the other. You accept the other and respect their individuality and uniqueness. This can said also between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church. You accept each other without changing the other. If I plan to change my wife it will not take long for the flying plates to come to my direction. No the same can be said for her. Don’t try to change him. Let each be. This was the mistake of our Churches. We need to respect each other and our individuality so that both Catholic and Orthodox will engage in a very healthy marriage. It is interesting some years ago when I overheard an Orthodox priest say about the Eastern Church when he said that this was a man’s church. In fact the men tend to outnumber the women at the Liturgy. Go to a Catholic Church and the reverse is true.
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In a healthy marriage people become ‘‘One’’. They do not remain seperate or schismed. in both churches their belief on key elements of the Faith can not be seperate. The Church isnt trying to change our eastern brothers, they invite them to come into the Holiness of the Truth and have been doing so ever since the schism. A kingdom divided cannot stand. In order for Christianity to flourish and take hold they must ‘‘be one.’’

In summary, Jesus invites, he does not impose.
 
Sorry guys I really do not know the mechanics of this computer or how to put down
what you have referred to in these posts. I apologize because really I do not know what
you are talking about. Do you have smaller screens? Really I don’t understand the problem. By the way I will like to say that references to my condition really need not to be
spoken unless I bring them up. The reason I brought it up in some posts was to help people understand that suffering can enable a person to achieve wisdom and understanding that usually can benefit the person better than had he read let us say many
books. I had suffered alot yes but by and large that has no bearing to my posts or
how I am doing. God used this disability to achieve within me a greater understanding
of His wisdom and to apply it to others when it seems right. The OC has a poor understanding towards suffering and my mentions were to imply that the Catholic
Church can give better answers to the questions regarding suffering. His Holiness
John Paul II wrote intensively about redemptive suffering and it is one of my favourite
topics. His chair is in my church and I find it comforting that his chair reminds me of his presence and with that, this great hope I see in him answers that I need with regards to
my own suffering. The Catholic Church can give great hope and answers to the
reasons why we suffer. It is strange that one of our own Church fathers an Eastern
saint did describe the Catholic teaching when he said " when you are granted a miracle you owe God. When you are given the gift of suffering God owes you. It is strange
that the OC did not pick up on his teaching. Thank God that the Catholic Church did.
Suffering is a tremondous gift that we should not waste. I pray that someday my
Orthodox brethren will pick up this tremendous teaching our Catholic brethren has given
to the Church. It has tremendous value and can give hope to many. Someday I hope
what God has been doing for me will be a benefit for His Church and the realization
of Pope John Paul II’s dream of a united Church will come forth,the best witness for this troublesome world.
 
Stephentlig said:
In a healthy marriage people become ‘‘One’’. They do not remain seperate or schismed. in both churches their belief on key elements of the Faith can not be seperate. The Church isnt trying to change our eastern brothers, they invite them to come into the Holiness of the Truth and have been doing so ever since the schism. A kingdom divided cannot stand. In order for Christianity to flourish and take hold they must ‘‘be one.’’

In summary, Jesus invites, he does not impose.
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You are misunderstanding my points. The Church in my opinion is not in schism since it was not together in the first place. What I was saying is that this movement to come together has not occurred. What I am implying God is moving us together now for the FIRST TIME. You misunderstand my points because you think only of the Catholic Church as the one Church. What I am proposing is that East and West is the one Church. But as long as you believe the Catholic Church to be only the true Church then yes I am wrong. But I believe I am right because it makes sense. My OC has many apostolic foundations and it seems some of the Catholics had forgotten there were 12 apostles!
 
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