Writings Which the Catholic Church decided to be the "Canon" of Scripture of the New Testament:

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Agreed.

Put it appears that we disagree on Church. That same Bible says that Jesus founded only One Church… and only one Church today qualifies. It is full of sinners as Scripture said it would be, but it is still the only Church not founded by a man or a woman or even a dissident cleric.

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I respect your belief.
The only thing that gives me pause is that there is only one true church and that Church is God. During Jesus times and for a century or so after wards there was no church for many people. They formed in small groups through out the known world and learned the good news. The only Church was of the Jews and Jesus and his disciples were trying to show them that the prophesy of the OT had come true. I feel (my opinion) that the concept of just one Church is correct; but that one Church is God and where his word is spoken, his Church is there. Do I believe that my Church is the only true Church in human terms no? We are the one true Church in God just as I believe that the Catholics are.
Man has meddled with the Church because he is sinful and can do no better. God is all-powerful and He had to know that we as sinners were bound to screw it up at some point. He gave us his word and his message of salvation as clear as day in John 3:16.
No where in there does it say God gave us Jesus and the Church.
God is the Church.

While I respect your beliefs that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true Church, I feel that belief comes from our sinful nature. It is putting a restriction on God. It is saying that his word and gift is not enough that some way man has to be involved. There is only one true Church, it is God and the faith that we have in His Word is the only Church that we need.

God Bless You
 
While I respect your beliefs that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true Church, I feel that belief comes from our sinful nature. It is putting a restriction on God. It is saying that his word and gift is not enough that some way man has to be involved. There is only one true Church, it is God and the faith that we have in His Word is the only Church that we need.

God Bless You
Very well put, and quite charitable too. Thanks,

Now I am interested in your (name removed by moderator)ut on a few verses from Scripture.

[1] “… he who hears you, hear Me… and the One Who sent Me…”
Who is Jesus talking to?

[2] “…the pillar and foundation of the Truth is the Church…”
You had commented that :* I feel (my opinion) that the concept of just one Church is correct; but that one Church is God and where his word is spoken, his Church is there*
Might you be saying that the pillar/foundation should be pillars/foundations?

[3] “…feed My sheep… tend My flock…feed My sheep…”
While Jesus is clearly talking to Peter alone/singular, how can anyone, as a member of the Church (either your description or the Catholic position) be fed - authoritatively - outside the plans and directive of Jesus Himself?

thanks and God Bless you too.

(admittedly, this strays slightly from the OP… but since the Catholic Church members/fathers were the ones whom God used to give us the NT, and the above 3 questions are NT, are they interpreted the same by those outside the Catholic Church which gave and authoritively interprets the NT?)
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I respect your belief.
The only thing that gives me pause is that there is only one true church and that Church is God. During Jesus times and for a century or so after wards there was no church for many people. They formed in small groups through out the known world and learned the good news. The only Church was of the Jews and Jesus and his disciples were trying to show them that the prophesy of the OT had come true. I feel (my opinion) that the concept of just one Church is correct; but that one Church is God and where his word is spoken, his Church is there. Do I believe that my Church is the only true Church in human terms no? We are the one true Church in God just as I believe that the Catholics are.
Man has meddled with the Church because he is sinful and can do no better. God is all-powerful and He had to know that we as sinners were bound to screw it up at some point. He gave us his word and his message of salvation as clear as day in John 3:16.
No where in there does it say God gave us Jesus and the Church.
God is the Church.

While I respect your beliefs that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true Church, I feel that belief comes from our sinful nature. It is putting a restriction on God. It is saying that his word and gift is not enough that some way man has to be involved. There is only one true Church, it is God and the faith that we have in His Word is the only Church that we need.

God Bless You
The Church doesn’t put restrictions on God.

God puts restrictions on us. It is through his Church that he has preserved those laws.

Without the Church Men put restrictions on God and rationalize and conform God into his own image.

We must assend to Gods will and deny our own. The reason Jesus left us the Church is because we need its help and so that we would have his loving standard to ascend to.

This is not to say that the Holy Spirit ONLY works though the Catholic Church. However, its noteworthy that Jesus instituted it and that it is visable and perpetual in a world bent on destroying her.

:crossrc:
 
Very well put, and quite charitable too. Thanks,

Now I am interested in your (name removed by moderator)ut on a few verses from Scripture.

[1] “… he who hears you, hear Me… and the One Who sent Me…”
Who is Jesus talking to?

[2] “…the pillar and foundation of the Truth is the Church…”
You had commented that :* I feel (my opinion) that the concept of just one Church is correct; but that one Church is God and where his word is spoken, his Church is there*
Might you be saying that the pillar/foundation should be pillars/foundations?

[3] “…feed My sheep… tend My flock…feed My sheep…”
While Jesus is clearly talking to Peter alone/singular, how can anyone, as a member of the Church (either your description or the Catholic position) be fed - authoritatively - outside the plans and directive of Jesus Himself?

thanks and God Bless you too.

(admittedly, this strays slightly from the OP… but since the Catholic Church members/fathers were the ones whom God used to give us the NT, and the above 3 questions are NT, are they interpreted the same by those outside the Catholic Church which gave and authoritively interprets the NT?)
.
I agree with the Bible passages, but where I disagree is they do not speak of the only one Church as the Catholic Church. I know the next point is that the Catholic Church has it ties to the original Church, but so do all Christian Churches.
Bear with me and I will make these points separate.

Jesus wanted people to hear his Word and He wanted the disciples to make sure they understood what they said was from Him. Not what they added to His teaching but what He had taught them. Hence, he who hears you, hear Me… and the One Who sent Me…

“…the pillar and foundation of the Truth is the Church…” Yes, His word would be the pillar and the foundation on which the Church is built. This does not mean there is only one church in name, but anywhere His word is preached His Church will be there. Hence, the passage that says Where two or more believers are gathered He is there. If the Catholic Church were, destroyed tomorrow would Gods Church stop to exist? No, it would live on in every small place people gathered to sing His Praise.

“…feed My sheep… tend My flock…feed My sheep…”
This is a huge jump to only one Church. God used many people to spread His Word. It was a directive to Peter but it does not say you and you alone or your successor only. The Church has the responsibility to spread His word, but His word stands on its own with or without the Church. History has proved this repeatedly. Look in Iraq in this given day. A person is dying for his Christian belief in the Word of God. God and his Word are the one true Church and every Church that preaches His Word is that one true Church of God!

God Bless You and Your Church in its mission for God
 
The Church doesn’t put restrictions on God.

God puts restrictions on us. It is through his Church that he has preserved those laws.

Without the Church Men put restrictions on God and rationalize and conform God into his own image.

We must assend to Gods will and deny our own. The reason Jesus left us the Church is because we need its help and so that we would have his loving standard to ascend to.

This is not to say that the Holy Spirit ONLY works though the Catholic Church. However, its noteworthy that Jesus instituted it and that it is visable and perpetual in a world bent on destroying her.

:crossrc:
It is like a restriction, It is restricting God that he can only exist in the Catholic Church as the one true Church.

God did not leave us a (physical) Church. He left us His Word on which the Church is built. The Church is just an instrument used by God to spread his Word, along with many other things that we as human sinners need, hope, comfort, community, strength in numbers, etc… The Church fills many functions on a human level. On a spiritual level God‘s Word fills our needs though the Church not the other way around.
 
It is like a restriction, It is restricting God that he can only exist in the Catholic Church as the one true Church.

God did not leave us a (physical) Church. He left us His Word on which the Church is built. The Church is just an instrument used by God to spread his Word, along with many other things that we as human sinners need, hope, comfort, community, strength in numbers, etc… The Church fills many functions on a human level. On a spiritual level God‘s Word fills our needs though the Church not the other way around.
That the Catholic Church is the true Church is not a restriction of men at all. It carries the truth of Jesus. It is a restriction from Jesus which is why it exists and persists. If it was of men it would have failed long ago. Its attributable to the failures of men that it is divided.

Not only did Jesus leave a Church for us he left it with his authority:
Mat 16:19 And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven. And whatever you bind on earth shall occur, having been bound in Heaven. And whatever you may loose on the earth shall be, having been loosed in Heaven.

Jesus did leave us a Church long before he left us written word. Its through this Church he created which is self evident in scriptures that the scriptures themselves filter down to us at all.

He does this through the gift of the Holy Spirit:
Joh 14:26 but the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, **He shall teach you all things **and shall remind you of all things that I said to you.

God uses the Church to meet our spiritual needs in many ways. Thats its whole purpose. To feed Gods sheep.
 
That the Catholic Church is the true Church is not a restriction of men at all. It carries the truth of Jesus. It is a restriction from Jesus which is why it exists and persists. If it was of men it would have failed long ago. Its attributable to the failures of men that it is divided.

Not only did Jesus leave a Church for us he left it with his authority:
Mat 16:19 And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven. And whatever you bind on earth shall occur, having been bound in Heaven. And whatever you may loose on the earth shall be, having been loosed in Heaven.

Jesus did leave us a Church long before he left us written word. Its through this Church he created which is self evident in scriptures that the scriptures themselves filter down to us at all.

He does this through the gift of the Holy Spirit:
Joh 14:26 but the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, **He shall teach you all things **and shall remind you of all things that I said to you.

God uses the Church to meet our spiritual needs in many ways. Thats its whole purpose. To feed Gods sheep.
There are several reasons why Jesus can’t be referring to Peter when he speaks of the rock on which he would build his church. In the Greek “Peter (Greek: petros)” is masculine and "this rock (Greek: petra) is feminine. If Jesus really meant to say that Peter was the one on whom he would build his church, he would have made this a lot clearer if he had repeated the masculine form of the word so that this would refer to Peter’s person.

Another reason that the church is not built on Peter is evident when Jesus shortly after this has to rebuke Peter and call him "Satan (Mt 16:23). Peter was a weak, human being, subject to error–hardly the kind of foundation on which Jesus would build the church.

And finally, and most important, just before this Peter had made the beautiful confession that embraces the two pillars of the Christian faith on which the church is built: 1) Jesus is God’s Son; and 2) Jesus is the Christ, the one God sent to do everything necessary to save us from sin. These two truths, all of Scripture teaches us, are the foundation of the church. This is why Jesus uses the feminine to point to this confession which is the foundation of the church.

Roman Catholicism will argue about the Greek in this passage and say that the different forms don’t matter. And Roman Catholicism will argue that Jesus’ subsequent rebuke of Peter isn’t really significant in this context.

Those arguments are ignoring important facts. But the main fact that Roman Catholicism ignores is that, when one takes the whole of Scripture into account, the foundation of the church according to Scripture is the confession about Jesus that Peter makes.

All of the arguments Roman Catholicism brings to set Peter up as the first Pope are done only to uphold its false teaching which says that people are saved, not by Christ’s saving alone, but also by the deeds of penance they do. It is this teaching, which Roman Catholicism says has been taught by Popes ever since Peter, which also gives us the reason for the way Roman Catholicism interprets Mt 16:18.
 
That the Catholic Church is the true Church is not a restriction of men at all. It carries the truth of Jesus. It is a restriction from Jesus which is why it exists and persists. If it was of men it would have failed long ago. Its attributable to the failures of men that it is divided.

Not only did Jesus leave a Church for us he left it with his authority:
Mat 16:19 And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven. And whatever you bind on earth shall occur, having been bound in Heaven. And whatever you may loose on the earth shall be, having been loosed in Heaven.

Jesus did leave us a Church long before he left us written word. Its through this Church he created which is self evident in scriptures that the scriptures themselves filter down to us at all.

He does this through the gift of the Holy Spirit:
Joh 14:26 but the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, **He shall teach you all things **and shall remind you of all things that I said to you.

God uses the Church to meet our spiritual needs in many ways. Thats its whole purpose. To feed Gods sheep.
Rome has never succeeded in forcing its primacy on all Christians, although its ambition to do so was already apparent in the late 2nd century. Bishop Victor of Rome attempted to compel the Christians of Asia Minor to celebrate Easter on the Sunday after Passover rather than “on the third day” (two days after Passover). In the late 4th century the pope began referring to Rome as “the apostolic see,” pointing to the fact that both Peter and Paul were active in Rome and were both martyred there.
The Eastern Church did not reject the term “apostolic see,” but it never accepted the claim to universal authority made by Pope Leo I (440-461) and his successors.
There were a number of temporary schisms between the Eastern Church and the Church of Rome before 1050. In 1054 the schism became permanent. That is, it remains to this day. It was in 1054 that Rome declared itself to be the only true catholic (universal and orthodox) church.
Pope Nicholas II (1058-1061) said that the Rock of Matthew 18 is Peter’s faith. On the other hand he also taught that the keys to eternal life were given to Peter (and his successors). For some centuries popes claimed the title “Peter’s Vicar.” Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) began to use the title “Vicar of Christ,” and that usage continues to this day. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) gave theological weight to this claim in his “Sum of Theology.” He said, “The pope (is) the Vicar of Christ and St. Peter’s successor.”
Ulrich Zwingli was indeed a conscientious Roman Catholic priest before introducing a reformation in Zurich, Switzerland.
The idea that the church enjoyed unity in doctrine before the Reformation is a myth. There were doctrinal differences, many of them of long standing. More than once “infallible” popes contradicted their “infallible” predecessors. The Inquisition investigated and prosecuted many people who were accused of false doctrine, including university professors whose ideas were considered dangerous to the status quo (Roman primacy in Europe and the hierarchical system). After Luther’s death (1546), the council of Trent (1545-1563) did settle many doctrinal issues, in addition to condemning Lutheran, Reformed, and Anabaptist teachiings.
In the early 9th century a Frankish monk, Ratramnus, took a position on the Lord’s Supper that was very similar to Calvin’s position in the 16th century. He emphsized that the presence of Christ in the sacrament is spiritual and “figurative.” In the mid-11th century the German monk Berengar held a similar view. Controversy over this issue finally prompted the pope to enforce a “gag rule,” forbidding further discussion of the subject. The English monk John Wyclif (early 14th century) denied transubstantiation and took a position similar to that which Calvin later espoused.
Incidentally, Wyclif denied the primacy of the pope over the entire church. At most, he said, the pope is head of the Roman (Western or Latin) part of the visible church.
 
There are several reasons why Jesus can’t be referring to Peter when he speaks of the rock on which he would build his church. In the Greek “Peter (Greek: petros)” is masculine and "this rock (Greek: petra) is feminine. If Jesus really meant to say that Peter was the one on whom he would build his church, he would have made this a lot clearer if he had repeated the masculine form of the word so that this would refer to Peter’s person.
Jesus did refer to Simon Peter. In fact, in the language of Jesus, he rename Simon as Kepha.

It would be said this.

“You are Kepha, and upon this Kepha I will build my Church.” Kepha in Aramaic means Rock. We know Jesus spoke Aramaic because the Greek Text of Matthew, there are elements of Aramaic overtone. So in the passage of Matthew 16:18 is the only passage that Jesus build his Church upon Peter.
Another reason that the church is not built on Peter is evident when Jesus shortly after this has to rebuke Peter and call him "Satan (Mt 16:23). Peter was a weak, human being, subject to error–hardly the kind of foundation on which Jesus would build the church.
Really have you failed to overlook the passages concerning Jesus Christ and Peter after his resurrection. After the Resurrection, Jesus ask Peter, “Do you love me?” (See John 21:15-17). Three times, and told him to feed his sheep. It is very clear that Jesus had a special mission to Peter. Luke 22:31-32 further states that Jesus prayed to Peter (singular). Jesus prays for Peter alone, that his faith may not fail, and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles.
And finally, and most important, just before this Peter had made the beautiful confession that embraces the two pillars of the Christian faith on which the church is built: 1) Jesus is God’s Son; and 2) Jesus is the Christ, the one God sent to do everything necessary to save us from sin. These two truths, all of Scripture teaches us, are the foundation of the church. This is why Jesus uses the feminine to point to this confession which is the foundation of the church.
Roman Catholicism will argue about the Greek in this passage and say that the different forms don’t matter. And Roman Catholicism will argue that Jesus’ subsequent rebuke of Peter isn’t really significant in this context.
The Catholic Church clearly states that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah and through Him all are saved. I don’t know where you get the idea from.
Those arguments are ignoring important facts. But the main fact that Roman Catholicism ignores is that, when one takes the whole of Scripture into account, the foundation of the church according to Scripture is the confession about Jesus that Peter makes.
All of the arguments Roman Catholicism brings to set Peter up as the first Pope are done only to uphold its false teaching which says that people are saved, not by Christ’s saving alone, but also by the deeds of penance they do. It is this teaching, which Roman Catholicism says has been taught by Popes ever since Peter, which also gives us the reason for the way Roman Catholicism interprets Mt 16:18.
Your view of the Catholic Church is completely distorted and is very far from the Truth. Peter’s confesses that Jesus is the Messiah, Son of the Living God, which the Catholic Church acknowledges. The Church also affirms that it is God’s grace that saves. There is no teaching in the Catholic Church that deeds of penance saves. Penance strengthens but it is God’s grace that saves.

The idea that the CC teachings that only through works we are save is false. It is only through the grace of God that we are save. It is not by faith alone.
 
Rome has never succeeded in forcing its primacy on all Christians, although its ambition to do so was already apparent in the late 2nd century. Bishop Victor of Rome attempted to compel the Christians of Asia Minor to celebrate Easter on the Sunday after Passover rather than “on the third day” (two days after Passover). In the late 4th century the pope began referring to Rome as “the apostolic see,” pointing to the fact that both Peter and Paul were active in Rome and were both martyred there.
History clearly states that the St. Peter did had a successor followed by Linus then by Cletus, and then St. Clement of Rome. The earliest Epistles we have after the death of the Apostle, Clement wrote letters to the Corinthians, and other Churches in the east. Pope Victor I used Easter in order to destroy Pagan Rome by intergrating it into Christian context.
Internal dissensions during this era affected the Church at Rome. The Eastern Church did not reject the term “apostolic see,” but it never accepted the claim to universal authority made by Pope Leo I (440-461) and his successors.
Actually they didn’t reject the Papacy until 1054 AD.
There were a number of temporary schisms between the Eastern Church and the Church of Rome before 1050. In 1054 the schism became permanent. That is, it remains to this day. It was in 1054 that Rome declared itself to be the only true catholic (universal and orthodox) church.
Pope Nicholas II (1058-1061) said that the Rock of Matthew 18 is Peter’s faith. On the other hand he also taught that the keys to eternal life were given to Peter (and his successors). For some centuries popes claimed the title “Peter’s Vicar.” Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) began to use the title “Vicar of Christ,” and that usage continues to this day. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) gave theological weight to this claim in his “Sum of Theology.” He said, “The pope (is) the Vicar of Christ and St. Peter’s successor.”
The Pope is the Successor of Peter. History proves this.
Ulrich Zwingli was indeed a conscientious Roman Catholic priest before introducing a reformation in Zurich, Switzerland. The idea that the church enjoyed unity in doctrine before the Reformation is a myth. There were doctrinal differences, many of them of long standing. More than once “infallible” popes contradicted their “infallible” predecessors.
There was no contradiction of infallibility. Infallibility is the teaching authority of the Pope that when he speaks Ex-Cathedra when speaking in teaching moral and faith. The inquistion had nothing to do with teaching office of the Pope regarding moral and faith.
The Inquisition investigated and prosecuted many people who were accused of false doctrine, including university professors whose ideas were considered dangerous to the status quo (Roman primacy in Europe and the hierarchical system). After Luther’s death (1546), the council of Trent (1545-1563) did settle many doctrinal issues, in addition to condemning Lutheran, Reformed, and Anabaptist teachings.
Likewise, Protestants Reformers also killed Catholics. The Lutheran and the Reformed were condemned because the two pillar of Protestantism is Sola Scriptura, and Faith Alone which are never taught by the Apostles.
In the early 9th century a Frankish monk, Ratramnus, took a position on the Lord’s Supper that was very similar to Calvin’s position in the 16th century. He emphsized that the presence of Christ in the sacrament is spiritual and “figurative.” In the mid-11th century the German monk Berengar held a similar view. Controversy over this issue finally prompted the pope to enforce a “gag rule,” forbidding further discussion of the subject. The English monk John Wyclif (early 14th century) denied transubstantiation and took a position similar to that which Calvin later espoused.
Incidentally, Wyclif denied the primacy of the pope over the entire church. At most, he said, the pope is head of the Roman (Western or Latin) part of the visible church.
John Wycliff had no authority when it comes to claiming faith issue. Transubstantiation is fully affirmed and is based in Jesus Bread Discourse in the John 6 which he said, “My flesh is Real Food and my Blood is Real Blood.” John was erroneous when he denied transtantiation (Real Presence).
 
Your view of the Catholic Church is completely distorted and is very far from the Truth. Peter’s confesses that Jesus is the Messiah, Son of the Living God, which the Catholic Church acknowledges. The Church also affirms that it is God’s grace that saves. There is no teaching in the Catholic Church that deeds of penance saves. Penance strengthens but it is God’s grace that saves.

The idea that the CC teachings that only through works we are save is false. It is only through the grace of God that we are save. It is not by faith alone.
My view of the Catholic Church is not distorted. My view is for you own Catechism

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

It is very clear that your Church believes you do not merit the initial grace. However, after that you need to merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for your sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.
Therefore, it is true that you believe that you need to work for your salvation and you can merit eternal life.
Is you CC wrong?

So my words are not twisted it is taken from you own Catechism
 
All of the arguments Roman Catholicism brings to set Peter up as the first Pope are done only to uphold its false teaching which says that people are saved, not by Christ’s saving alone, but also by the deeds of penance they do. It is this teaching, which Roman Catholicism says has been taught by Popes ever since Peter, which also gives us the reason for the way Roman Catholicism interprets Mt 16:18.
If the Church is mistaken as to the teachings of Jesus as you suggest then his promises would not be Truth but they are.

If you want to know what Jesus meant then you have to go to those who walked with him. We both know those men and their successors are the leaders of Jesus Church. The Church isn’t founded in just Rome or just on Peter/Kephas.
ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp

If you as one man or any other one man wish to disagree that is you God given right. I have explored most of the misconceptions of those who have departed from the sound doctrine of the 12 and have yet to find one that hold water though some may someday prove to hold some truth but until its confirmed with the power of the keys I am secure holding to what has been revealed.
 
So my words are not twisted it is taken from you own Catechism
Give the Catechism a chance and the bennifit of the doubt. You will eventually find the pieces all fit but you must have faith and trust Jesus Church never intends to lead astray Gods sheep.
 
If the Church is mistaken as to the teachings of Jesus as you suggest then his promises would not be Truth but they are.

If you want to know what Jesus meant then you have to go to those who walked with him. We both know those men and their successors are the leaders of Jesus Church. The Church isn’t founded in just Rome or just on Peter/Kephas.
ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp

If you as one man or any other one man wish to disagree that is you God given right. I have explored most of the misconceptions of those who have departed from the sound doctrine of the 12 and have yet to find one that hold water though some may someday prove to hold some truth but until its confirmed with the power of the keys I am secure holding to what has been revealed.
I will repeat God is the Church it is that simple.
 
Rome has never succeeded in forcing its primacy on all Christians, although its ambition to do so was already apparent in the late 2nd century. Bishop Victor of Rome attempted to compel the Christians of Asia Minor to celebrate Easter on the Sunday after Passover rather than “on the third day” (two days after Passover). In the late 4th century the pope began referring to Rome as “the apostolic see,” pointing to the fact that both Peter and Paul were active in Rome and were both martyred there.
The Eastern Church did not reject the term “apostolic see,” but it never accepted the claim to universal authority made by Pope Leo I (440-461) and his successors.
There were a number of temporary schisms between the Eastern Church and the Church of Rome before 1050. In 1054 the schism became permanent. That is, it remains to this day. It was in 1054 that Rome declared itself to be the only true catholic (universal and orthodox) church.
Pope Nicholas II (1058-1061) said that the Rock of Matthew 18 is Peter’s faith. On the other hand he also taught that the keys to eternal life were given to Peter (and his successors). For some centuries popes claimed the title “Peter’s Vicar.” Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) began to use the title “Vicar of Christ,” and that usage continues to this day. Thomas Aquinas (1225-1274) gave theological weight to this claim in his “Sum of Theology.” He said, “The pope (is) the Vicar of Christ and St. Peter’s successor.”
Ulrich Zwingli was indeed a conscientious Roman Catholic priest before introducing a reformation in Zurich, Switzerland.
The idea that the church enjoyed unity in doctrine before the Reformation is a myth. There were doctrinal differences, many of them of long standing. More than once “infallible” popes contradicted their “infallible” predecessors. The Inquisition investigated and prosecuted many people who were accused of false doctrine, including university professors whose ideas were considered dangerous to the status quo (Roman primacy in Europe and the hierarchical system). After Luther’s death (1546), the council of Trent (1545-1563) did settle many doctrinal issues, in addition to condemning Lutheran, Reformed, and Anabaptist teachiings.
In the early 9th century a Frankish monk, Ratramnus, took a position on the Lord’s Supper that was very similar to Calvin’s position in the 16th century. He emphsized that the presence of Christ in the sacrament is spiritual and “figurative.” In the mid-11th century the German monk Berengar held a similar view. Controversy over this issue finally prompted the pope to enforce a “gag rule,” forbidding further discussion of the subject. The English monk John Wyclif (early 14th century) denied transubstantiation and took a position similar to that which Calvin later espoused.
Incidentally, Wyclif denied the primacy of the pope over the entire church. At most, he said, the pope is head of the Roman (Western or Latin) part of the visible church.
Just as Jesus doesnt force himself on anyone, neither does the church.

Though, Jesus does not conform to the will and opinions of men neither does the church.

If the pride of any man asserts itself over another then that is their folly.

If the authority of God does assert itself and one refuses to conform to Gods will then that is as well their folly. One that unrepented of will result in an eternal consequence.

The problem arrises when the Pride of men asserts itself over the Will of God.

You can squabble over what Jesus meant by what he said against those who heard it directly from his mouth and were sent out by Jesus himself but to what avail is that?

Let those who have an ear to hear then hear. The rest will take the wrong path.

How sad but conversion by the sword is no conversion at all. It must be a free will choice to overcome ones own ignorance. For those who seek sincerely in prayer and fasting I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit will enlighten and knock the scales or prejudice from their eyes.

Its erroneous to call the reformation a reformation at all. It was a revolt.

The reformation of the church is as ongoing as our own personal conversions and it only comes from within. Not from revolt.
 
Give the Catechism a chance and the bennifit of the doubt. You will eventually find the pieces all fit but you must have faith and trust Jesus Church never intends to lead astray Gods sheep.
Either you believe in what it says or you do not. I have found that most Catholics do not fully understand their own teachings. As the post before, you do believe that you merit your salvation, but most will say no or call me wrong because they do not understand what is taught.
I show you from you own doctrine and it still is some how not what it says!!
 
Either you believe in what it says or you do not. I have found that most Catholics do not fully understand their own teachings. As the post before, you do believe that you merit your salvation, but most will say no or call me wrong because they do not understand what is taught.
I show you from you own doctrine and it still is some how not what it says!!
If you want Orthodox doctrine on Salvations see here:

scripturecatholic.com/justification.html
scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html

Or see the thread entitled We ARE saved by works.

Prior to this you have inadvertantly derailed this thread into the Primacy of Peter and now Salvation

Please refrain from digressing further from the topic of the thread or begin a new thread with your new topic.
 
My view of the Catholic Church is not distorted. My view is for you own Catechism

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

It is very clear that your Church believes you do not merit the initial grace. However, after that you need to merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for your sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.

Therefore, it is true that you believe that you need to work for your salvation and you can merit eternal life.
Is you CC wrong?

So my words are not twisted it is taken from you own Catechism
The CC is not wrong you just take that passage completely out of context. You also can note that in that post it did not say WORKS ALONE. So you misinterpret the passage of the CCC.
There is one thing you left out that is mention of the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The Church teaches this that it is God’s grace that saves. This moves our faith in Christ, and by showing our faith, we do so by our actions. In fact in the end of our life, we are judge not by faith we are judge by our deeds.

To further my point that the CC does teaches Grace is the only means of salvation.

1742 Freedom and grace. The grace of Christ is not in the slightest way a rival of our freedom when this freedom accords with the sense of the true and the good that God has put in the human heart. On the contrary, as Christian experience attests especially in prayer, the more docile we are to the promptings of grace, the more we grow in inner freedom and confidence during trials, such as those we face in the pressures and constraints of the outer world. By the working of grace the Holy Spirit educates us in spiritual freedom in order to make us free collaborators in his work in the Church and in the world:

Almighty and merciful God,
in your goodness take away from us all that is harmful,
so that, made ready both in mind and body,
we may freely accomplish your will.

2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning “favor,” “gratuitous gift,” “benefit.” Whatever their character - sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues - charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.
 
If you want Orthodox doctrine on Salvations see here:

scripturecatholic.com/justification.html
scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html

Or see the thread entitled We ARE saved by works.

Prior to this you have inadvertantly derailed this thread into the Primacy of Peter and now Salvation

Please refrain from digressing further from the topic of the thread or begin a new thread with your new topic.
I agree. I do notice Protestants apologists have the habit of rerailing topics more so than Catholics.
 
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