Wrong bible for first 1500 years?

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Come on now, Jim. I can’t believe you managed to work that into this thread, especially in response to my saying let’s celebrate the fact that we are moving closer together. I think your comment is what is called a “sucker punch.” :ouch:
Anna
Not meant to be, Anna. But that’s the reality. Sadly, the Anglicans moved further away from the Church.

Peace be with you, Jim Dandy
 
True, but that does not lessen the importance of the Bible in Catholic Christian life
Thank you for making that important statement, Anna. The Church relies on the three sources of divine revelation: Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, and the Magisterium (the teaching authority of the Church)…

The Church copied the Scriptures by hand for fifteen centuries, by quill and candlelight, in the most difficult of circumstances, until the printing press was invented**;** the Scriptures are critical to Catholic faith and life. A great book is In the Beginning: Bibles for the first 1000 years, published by the Smithsonian.

You probably know this, but I also write for others who may read the post and may not know…

Peace, Jim Dandy
 
Thank you for making that important statement, Anna. The Church relies on the three sources of divine revelation: Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, and the Magisterium (the teaching authority of the Church)…

The Church copied the Scriptures by hand for fifteen centuries, by quill and candlelight, in the most difficult of circumstances, until the printing press was invented**;** the Scriptures are critical to Catholic faith and life. A great book is In the Beginning: Bibles for the first 1000 years, published by the Smithsonian.

You probably know this, but I also write for others who may read the post and may not know…

Peace, Jim Dandy
I know.

Anna
 
Not meant to be, Anna. But that’s the reality. Sadly, the Anglicans moved further away from the Church.

Peace be with you, Jim Dandy
Jim Dandy,
The comment was just so off topic. I already know what Catholics think of Anglicans. There have been multiple threads with plentiful Catholic opinions. This thread is not one of them. We have the same Canon as the Catholic Church. While appreciating the beauty and history of the KJV; we use the RSV and NRSV in our studies, the same versions used in the CCC.

Peace,
Anna
 
Jim Dandy,
The comment was just so off topic. I already know what Catholics think of Anglicans. There have been multiple threads with plentiful Catholic opinions. This thread is not one of them. We have the same Canon as the Catholic Church. While appreciating the beauty and history of the KJV; we use the RSV and NRSV in our studies, the same versions used in the CCC.

Peace,
Anna
The Thirty Nine Articles of Religion explicitly rejects the deuterocanonical books. 🤷
 
Jim Dandy,
The comment was just so off topic. I already know what Catholics think of Anglicans. There have been multiple threads with plentiful Catholic opinions. This thread is not one of them. We have the same Canon as the Catholic Church. While appreciating the beauty and history of the KJV; we use the RSV and NRSV in our studies, the same versions used in the CCC.

Peace,
Anna
My comment was triggered by your statement that we are growing closer together. I regret that you were offended.

How and when did your branch (if that is the appropriate term) of Anglicanism come to adopt the Catholic canon? As has been noted by 1holyCatholic, the 39 Articles reject it in favor of the shorter Protestant canon.

Peace be with you, Jim Dandy
 
My comment was triggered by your statement that we are growing closer together. I regret that you were offended.

How and when did your branch (if that is the appropriate term) of Anglicanism come to adopt the Catholic canon? As has been noted by 1holyCatholic, the 39 Articles reject it in favor of the shorter Protestant canon.

Peace be with you, Jim Dandy
The Thirty Nine Articles of Religion explicitly rejects the deuterocanonical books. 🤷
1holycatholic and Jim Dandy,

The 39 Articles are not accepted uniformly throughout the Anglican Communion. Unlike the Catholic Church, we are not required to “submit religious mind and will” to those who hold positions of authority within the Anglican Communion. Admittedly, that is a two-edged sword with both good and bad implications.

H. W. Howorth gives an analysis of the history and attitude of the English Church regarding the Biblical Canon, saying it has been “inconsequent” from the beginning; and that it should have been “found in Unison” with the Canon of the Bible in earlier centuries.

The Origin And Authority Of The Biblical Canon In The Anglican Church, H. W. Howorth, Journal Of Theological Studies, 1906, pp.1-40.
Link: islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Canon/anglicanhis.html

IOW, the Anglican Canon should be in unison with the Catholic Canon–and it is for me, as an Anglican Catholic in the Anglican Communion.

Peace,
Anna
 
My comment was triggered by your statement that we are growing closer together. I regret that you were offended.
You don’t think the Catholic Church’s adoption of a Protestant translation for the CCC is a step closer?

This is a quote from the Introduction to the Catholic Edition of the Revised Standard Version, found in the The Catholic Comparative New Testament:

“For four hundred years, following upon the great upheaval of the Reformation, Catholics and Protestants have gone their separate ways and suspected each other’s translations of the Bible of having been in some way manipulated in the interests of doctrinal presuppositions. It must be admitted that these suspicions were not always without foundation. At the present time, however, the sciences of textual criticism and philology, not to mention others, have made such great advances that the Bible text used by translators is substantially the same for all–Protestants and Catholics alike.”

Peace,
Anna
 
I’ll echo Anna Scott’s statement that the 39 Articles are by no means normative in Anglicanism. The Articles are only affirmed by Church of England priests in their oaths. The Articles are more considered historical documents by Anglicans in most quarters of the Anglican Communion. Evangelical Low-Church Anglicans tend to find solace in the Articles while Anglo-Catholics find them spurious. They were spawned at the height of the Reformation when a more Calvinist party had the loudest voice. Many Anglicans reject them, many ignore them, many haven’t even read them. To attempt to make the 39 Articles sound like a uniform catechism or code of Anglicanism is a big mistake. Anglicanism is a lex orandi, lex credendi religion and is not confessional like Lutheranism or Calvinism.
The Thirty Nine Articles of Religion explicitly rejects the deuterocanonical books. 🤷
 
You don’t think the Catholic Church’s adoption of a Protestant translation for the CCC is a step closer?

This is a quote from the Introduction to the Catholic Edition of the Revised Standard Version, found in the The Catholic Comparative New Testament:

“For four hundred years, following upon the great upheaval of the Reformation, Catholics and Protestants have gone their separate ways and suspected each other’s translations of the Bible of having been in some way manipulated in the interests of doctrinal presuppositions. It must be admitted that these suspicions were not always without foundation. At the present time, however, the sciences of textual criticism and philology, not to mention others, have made such great advances that the Bible text used by translators is substantially the same for all–Protestants and Catholics alike.”

Peace,
Anna
I don’t see it as the Catholic Church moving in the direction of Protestantism, but of the RSV being a more accurate translation and therefore widely acceptable. (See the sentence I highlighted in red in your post.) The Church has always rejected poor, inaccurate translations (like Wyclif’s and the KJV, for example). Consider this:

QUOTE

RSV footnote to Mt 16:18: The Greek text involves a play on two words, Petros (“Peter”) and Petra (“rock”). Palestinian Aramaic, which Jesus usually spoke, used the same word for both proper name and and common noun. "You are Kepha [compare 1 Cor.15.5; Gal.2.9], and on this kepha [rock] I will build . . . [my church]

19: The keys of the kingdom are a symbol of Peter’s power as the leader of the Church . . .

END QUOTE

The Church has made significant progress in the cause of ecuminism. But the goal is not to move the Church toward Protestantism and Protestantism toward the Church so that we meet in the middle.

The Church is God-made. All Protestant ecclesial communities (there is only one Church) are man-made.

Peace be with you,

Jim Dandy
 
1holycatholic and Jim Dandy,

The 39 Articles are not accepted uniformly throughout the Anglican Communion. Unlike the Catholic Church, we are not required to “submit religious mind and will” to those who hold positions of authority within the Anglican Communion. Admittedly, that is a two-edged sword with both good and bad implications.

H. W. Howorth gives an analysis of the history and attitude of the English Church regarding the Biblical Canon, saying it has been “inconsequent” from the beginning; and that it should have been “found in Unison” with the Canon of the Bible in earlier centuries.

The Origin And Authority Of The Biblical Canon In The Anglican Church, H. W. Howorth, Journal Of Theological Studies, 1906, pp.1-40.
Link: islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Canon/anglicanhis.html

IOW, the Anglican Canon should be in unison with the Catholic Canon–and it is for me, as an Anglican Catholic in the Anglican Communion.

Peace,
Anna
I read the article. It didn’t say when the Anglo-Catholics adopted the Catholic canon, but that it should have from the beginning. Or did I miss it?

Peace, Jim Dandy
 
I read the article. It didn’t say when the Anglo-Catholics adopted the Catholic canon, but that it should have from the beginning. Or did I miss it?

Peace, Jim Dandy
Correct, and many of us do accept the Catholic Canon.
Anna
 
I’ll echo Anna Scott’s statement that the 39 Articles are by no means normative in Anglicanism. The Articles are only affirmed by Church of England priests in their oaths. The Articles are more considered historical documents by Anglicans in most quarters of the Anglican Communion. Evangelical Low-Church Anglicans tend to find solace in the Articles while Anglo-Catholics find them spurious. They were spawned at the height of the Reformation when a more Calvinist party had the loudest voice. Many Anglicans reject them, many ignore them, many haven’t even read them. To attempt to make the 39 Articles sound like a uniform catechism or code of Anglicanism is a big mistake. Anglicanism is a lex orandi, lex credendi religion and is not confessional like Lutheranism or Calvinism.
Thank you, Gurney. Well said!
Peace,
Anna
 
Jim Dandy,
If memory serves me correctly, the first English versions of the Bible were translated from the Vulgate, rather than from the Greek or Hebrew. Of course, the first English translations of the Bible were oral, and then written later.

I think it was John Wycliffe who first translated a complete Bible into English primarily using the Vulgate. Of course Wycliffe was declared a heretic by the Catholic Church. 😉 History is complicated.

The Douay–Rheims Bible is an English translation of the Latin Vulgate and is online, along with the Latin Vulgate, and the KJV, at this link: latinvulgate.com/.

The Douay-Rheims Bible is also online at this link: drbo.org/.

Hope this helps.
It is a common misunderstanding that Wycliffe was excommunicated for his translation, rather than for his denial of the Real Presence.

It is also a common misunderstanding that there were no bibles in the vernacular before him. I recommend Henry Graham’s book, which is available free online. [Chapter 11 gives the history ](Where we got the bible XI)of the authorized translations - those without heretical departures and commentaries. 😉
 
It’s sad that Anglicanism placed insurmountable impediments to unity by ordaining women and now women bishops, which moved us even further apart. But that’s a subject for another thread.

Peace, Jim Dandy
In Christ, there is no such think as an insurmountable impediment to unity, as demonstrated by the current reception of Anglicans into unity and communion with the successor of Peter. Unity does not happen enmesse, but within individuals, such as Anna Scott, studying the history of their faith, and praying their way through their objections.👍
 
You don’t think the Catholic Church’s adoption of a Protestant translation for the CCC is a step closer?
Peace,
Anna
Yes, I do. But there are as many Catholics working on it as Protestants. I don’t think it is “a Protestant translation”, but a product of biblical scholarship enganged by Catholics and Protestants alike.
 
I don’t see it as the Catholic Church moving in the direction of Protestantism, but of the RSV being a more accurate translation and therefore widely acceptable. (See the sentence I highlighted in red in your post.)
I never said the CC is moving in the direction of Protestantism.

Actually, I may be in error to claim the RSV and NRSV are “Protestant” Bibles. Though used by Protestants, these translations are really more “ecumenical,” and that is probably one of the reasons they were so readily adopted by the Catholic Church. The point is I think we are making progress. 🙂
The Church has always rejected poor, inaccurate translations (like Wyclif’s and the KJV, for example).
I know. England wasn’t pleased with Wycliffe, nor was Pope Martin V, who, more than 40 years after Wycliffe’s death, ordered Wycliffe’s bones to be dug up, burned, and scatter in the river. (And people say the Catholic Church hasn’t changed. 😉 ) Not that England’s kings were any more merciful to dissenters in conflict with their beliefs-Protestant or Catholic in nature.
QUOTE

Consider this: RSV footnote to Mt 16:18: The Greek text involves a play on two words, Petros (“Peter”) and Petra (“rock”). Palestinian Aramaic, which Jesus usually spoke, used the same word for both proper name and and common noun. "You are Kepha [compare 1 Cor.15.5; Gal.2.9], and on this kepha [rock] I will build . . . [my church]

19: The keys of the kingdom are a symbol of Peter’s power as the leader of the Church . . .

END QUOTE

The Church has made significant progress in the cause of ecuminism. But the goal is not to move the Church toward Protestantism and Protestantism toward the Church so that we meet in the middle.

The Church is God-made. All Protestant ecclesial communities (there is only one Church) are man-made.
I am well aware of the Catholic stance on the “primacy of Peter,” which is a different belief from that of Protestants, Anglicans, and Orthodox Christians.

Peace,
Anna
 
Anna Scott wrote:
IOW, the Anglican Canon should be in unison with the Catholic Canon–and it is for me, as an Anglican Catholic in the Anglican Communion
Which canon/translation do the Anglican Broad (liberal) and Low (evangelical) branches use?

Peace, Jim Dandy
 
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