Wrong bible for first 1500 years?

[Prodigal_Son1]

I understand a Catholic would read those verses differently than some non-Catholics. My understanding of those verses in Corinthians is that they were given to explain the different roles of all of us in the Church. They are not necessarily setting up a hierarchy government, but more an explanation given by Paul as to the importance of each member of the Body of Christ no matter what their role. It was to build up and edify the Church and it’s members.

As for your second question, I do not believe that any true Christians abandoned the Church of Christ. I believe that we are all members of the Church of Christ.

Paul wrote how one is to act in the house of God, which IS the Church of the living God.

1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

The Church was and is visible.

As for my second question, why did Christ show confidence that God’s truth could be protected, even through sinful men? I apologize for confusing the question by using the word abandon. There were no instructions to leave those sinful men and find other teachers. The point is, Christ stated ‘ALL things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you observe and do…’

Mat 23:1 Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to his disciples,
Mat 23:2 Saying: The scribes and the Pharisees have sitten on the chair of Moses.
Mat 23:3 All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.

Then, in Hebrews 13:17, the inspired word of God tells us to obey our leaders and be subject to them…

 

[1holycatholic]

I don’t think that is his point. Historically, there have been differences in different parts of the Church about what they used as canonical texts. This was so before there was any schism. And I think you will find that even today, this is in no way considered to be an impediment to union.

There is no requirement that the canon has to be identical for all.

For the first few decades of the Church the texts that would later be declared canonical weren’t even written.

The Canon wasn’t even infallibly defined by the Church until the late fourth century.

Those Churches that are in union with the Holy See are in union with the Holy See. That includes the Canon of Scripture.

 

[Modestly_Anne]

so what is the doctrine of the Church of Christ on what defines a true christian?

Well just to be sure I am not causing any confusion, I meant the Church that is made up of follower’s of Christ, not the organized denomination of “The Church of Christ”

Simply put I believe a true Christian is a person who believes that Jesus is the One and Only Son of God and has put their faith and trust of salvation in His work, including His death on the cross as atonement for their sins.

A true Christian will keep Christ’s commands, to Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself.

Of course if the above is true, they will be repentant and have a serving heart.

 

[1holycatholic]

Well just to be sure I am not causing any confusion, I meant the Church that is made up of follower’s of Christ, not the organized denomination of “The Church of Christ”

Simply put I believe a true Christian is a person who believes that Jesus is the One and Only Son of God and has put their faith and trust of salvation in His work, including His death on the cross as atonement for their sins.

A true Christian will keep Christ’s commands, to Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself.

Of course if the above is true, they will be repentant and have a serving heart.

“The Church of Christ” is a nineteenth century Protestant denomination started by Stone/Campbell.

The Catholic Church is not a denomination, it is the one and only Church established by Christ Himself.

Your belief about the nature of the Church has no basis in history except as a rationalization employed by those who were outside the Church.

 

[Modestly_Anne]

Paul wrote how one is to act in the house of God, which IS the Church of the living God.

Well, in the early days the Apostles and the followers of Christ were meeting in homes. If we gather together to worship God, we are in His presence, in His House.

There was a Catholic Priest celebrating Mass in a Garbage Dump, I think it was in Mexico, but I could be wrong. I’m sure God was truly present.

The Church was and is visible.

As for my second question, why did Christ show confidence that God’s truth could be protected, even through sinful men? I apologize for confusing the question by using the word abandon. There were no instructions to leave those sinful men and find other teachers. The point is, Christ stated ‘ALL things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you observe and do…’

Then, in Hebrews 13:17, the inspired word of God tells us to obey our leaders and be subject to them…

Yes, we should obey our leaders, and I’m not implying that there are not leaders or teachers within the Church. What I am saying is that even leaders fall into error. Priests lead a parish and yet some have done wrong. I’ve seen right here on this forum, where Catholics mention that they have had Priests teaching error in their Parish. A few examples I recall are some priests suggesting that couples use birth control , some saying that parishioners don’t need to confess so often, and I read one time about one that said there is no hell. I realize that priests are human just like the rest of us and make mistakes and sin, but I don’t believe that most would think they should follow them at such times.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Well, in the early days the Apostles and the followers of Christ were meeting in homes. If we gather together to worship God, we are in His presence, in His House.

There was a Catholic Priest celebrating Mass in a Garbage Dump, I think it was in Mexico, but I could be wrong. I’m sure God was truly present.

That still doesn’t address the points I raised on the hierarchy, offices, of the Church and the authority clearly expressed by Paul with his instructions to ‘obey your leaders and be subject to them?’ You also missed responding to Christ’s instructions on those that sat in the chair of Moses and the lack of instructions to seek out another teacher?

 

[Modestly_Anne]

“The Church of Christ” is a nineteenth century Protestant denomination started by Stone/Campbell.

The Catholic Church is not a denomination, it is the one and only Church established by Christ Himself.

Your belief about the nature of the Church has no basis in history except as a rationalization employed by those who were outside the Church.

Your belief that the Catholic Church is the one and only Church established by Christ Himself is debated in history by the Orthodox Church.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Yes, we should obey our leaders, and I’m not implying that there are not leaders or teachers within the Church. What I am saying is that even leaders fall into error. Priests lead a parish and yet some have done wrong. I’ve seen right here on this forum, where Catholics mention that they have had Priests teaching error in their Parish. A few examples I recall are some priests suggesting that couples use birth control , some saying that parishioners don’t need to confess so often, and I read one time about one that said there is no hell. I realize that priests are human just like the rest of us and make mistakes and sin, but I don’t believe that most would think they should follow them at such times.

Church leaders in the Bible received authority, or were confirmed, when the Apostles prayed over them and imposed hands. There is nowhere, that I know of, that scriptures tell of anyone appointing themselves to a position of authority in the Church, or an example of laypersons appointing someone else to a position of authority in the Church.

In Acts 6, men were chosen by people of the Church, but were confirmed with the prayers of the Apostles and the imposition of hands. Those men took on work in the Church so the Apostles could fully concentrate on preaching the Gospel, another example of the Church hierarchy.

Lastly, if we are to find other teachers, why did Christ tell the people to observe and do whatsoever those that sat on the Chair of Moses said to them, but do not as they do? Following that instruction to the multitudes, Christ listed a list of ‘woes’ on those sinful teachers. There are no instructions for the ‘multitudes’/laypersons to make changes in the Church. That authority was given to those chosen and appointed by the Lord.

 

[john_aurelius]

I love the reformation, don’t get me wrong… I disagree with private interpretations that go against the preaching/ teaching of the apostles but it brought about the existence of the Bible Societies and by placing the whole weight of authority on the Scriptures through SS we now know that the Bible used by the Prostestants for about 400-500 years was the least authoritative manuscripts.

Most new Protestant Bibles are in agreement with Codex Vaticanus (B) IV Century.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Your belief that the Catholic Church is the one and only Church established by Christ Himself is debated in history by the Orthodox Church.

An argument used seemingly to justify many, many denominations. If you really believed in the validity of the Orthodox schism, why aren’t you a member of that Church?

Christ built ONE Church. He prayed for us to be ONE. Paul wrote and said we are to be ‘perfectly’ ONE in the same mind and judgment.

There was only ONE Church. Yes, there was a great schism, but weighing doctrines against doctrines, Orthodox and Catholic are very similar, much more than the many divisions of Protestantism, which also came from the Catholic Church. The debates began with the reformation.

 

[1holycatholic]

Your belief that the Catholic Church is the one and only Church established by Christ Himself is debated in history by the Orthodox Church.

Sure, after the various Orthodox chose schism from the Holy See, for many centuries prior to their schism they didn’t.

And it’s not “my belief” it’s historical fact.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Yes, we should obey our leaders, and I’m not implying that there are not leaders or teachers within the Church. What I am saying is that even leaders fall into error. Priests lead a parish and yet some have done wrong. I’ve seen right here on this forum, where Catholics mention that they have had Priests teaching error in their Parish. A few examples I recall are some priests suggesting that couples use birth control , some saying that parishioners don’t need to confess so often, and I read one time about one that said there is no hell. I realize that priests are human just like the rest of us and make mistakes and sin, but I don’t believe that most would think they should follow them at such times.

You agree that we should obey our leaders. Does this mean you now agree with a hierarchy?

As for leaders ‘falling into error’, please share where there are perfect teachers? See, there is only one who is perfect. Please share with us the scriptures that tell us to ‘judge’ teachers and then seek out other teachers? Again, there are no such scriptures. Those type authoritative actions were commanded of those Christ chosen and appointed the authority over His Church. He knew there would be none perfect, as He knows all men. He knew this when He instructed the multitudes to observe and do all things whatsoever those that sat on the chair of Moses said to them.

The Bible, specifically the New Testament, was in the sole possession of the Catholic Church for 1500 years, prior to the reformation, yet Protestants know the Bible better than the Church that defined the canon and preserved it through the ages so that they have one today.

 

[1holycatholic]

The Bible, specifically the New Testament, was in the sole possession of the Catholic Church for 1500 years, prior to the reformation, yet Protestants know the Bible better than the Church that defined the canon and preserved it through the ages so that they have one today.

Which Protestants?

The Protestants that condemn abortion, or the ones that don’t?

The Protestants that still hold the historical Protestant belief that contraception is gravely evil and sinful, or the ones that don’t believe that anymore because it’s not convenient?

The Protestants that say Baptism is necessary or the ones that say it isn’t?

The Protestants that say a “Rapture is coming on dd/mm/yyyy” or the ones that don’t hold the “Rapture” theory?

The Protestants that say you can’t lose your salvation or the ones that say you can?

The Protestants that say that God only saves the elect and damns everyone else, or the ones who don’t?

etc. etc. etc.

 

[onmyknees]

You agree that we should obey our leaders. Does this mean you now agree with a hierarchy?

As for leaders ‘falling into error’, please share where there are perfect teachers? See, there is only one who is perfect. Please share with us the scriptures that tell us to ‘judge’ teachers and then seek out other teachers? Again, there are no such scriptures. Those type authoritative actions were commanded of those Christ chosen and appointed the authority over His Church. He knew there would be none perfect, as He knows all men. He knew this when He instructed the multitudes to observe and do all things whatsoever those that sat on the chair of Moses said to them.

The Bible, specifically the New Testament, was in the sole possession of the Catholic Church for 1500 years, prior to the reformation, yet Protestants know the Bible better than the Church that defined the canon and preserved it through the ages so that they have one today.

When the Catholic Church teaches on faith and morals they are guided by the Holy Spirit who is God and so they are teaching without error. John 16:12 Jesus said to the apostles, “I still have many things to say to you but they would be too much for you now. But when the Spirit of Truth comes He will lead you to the complete Truth.”

 

[Modestly_Anne]

You agree that we should obey our leaders. Does this mean you now agree with a hierarchy?

As for leaders ‘falling into error’, please share where there are perfect teachers? See, there is only one who is perfect. **Please share with us the scriptures that tell us to ‘judge’ teachers and then seek out other teachers? Again, there are no such scriptures. ** Those type authoritative actions were commanded of those Christ chosen and appointed the authority over His Church. He knew there would be none perfect, as He knows all men. He knew this when He instructed the multitudes to observe and do all things whatsoever those that sat on the chair of Moses said to them.

The Bible, specifically the New Testament, was in the sole possession of the Catholic Church for 1500 years, prior to the reformation, yet Protestants know the Bible better than the Church that defined the canon and preserved it through the ages so that they have one today.

A leader can lead without being in authority. I can lead somebody to the store, but they may choose a different way, and have no requirement to follow me. I did use the word obey, and I do agree that there will be times when we will obey and times when we will need to decide for ourselves what we believe. After all the profession of faith does say or will soon say “I believe”

In a true hierarchy the leaders are ranked one above the other according to status or rank of authority.

As for the rest, we are warned often in scripture that we will have to watch out for false teachers, or those who have fallen into error and no longer teach the truth.
2 Peter 2 1-3
1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Acts 20:29-3)"'I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears".
Romans 16:17–18 (NLT)

17 And now I make one more appeal, my dear brothers and sisters. Watch out for people who cause divisions and upset people’s faith by teaching things contrary to what you have been taught. Stay away from them.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

When the Catholic Church teaches on faith and morals they are guided by the Holy Spirit who is God and so they are teaching without error. John 16:12 Jesus said to the apostles, “I still have many things to say to you but they would be too much for you now. But when the Spirit of Truth comes He will lead you to the complete Truth.”

Many Protestants read the Gospel of John and apply the promises of Christ to themselves individually, including the promises of the Holy Spirit guiding them in all truths. What they miss is the context of who is being spoken too by Christ. There are times Christ spoke to the multitudes and times He only addressed those He chose and appointed over His Church. If one starts at John chapter 13 and reads through, only the Apostles are present until John 18, when they came to arrest Jesus. Those things spoken apply to the Church, through the authoritative men appointed by Christ.

Christ never appointed multitudes, or commanded them to go out and preach the Gospel. This doesn’t mean we aren’t to be an example, we are, however we are limited by our positions within the Church as laity.

Yet, many of those Protestants claiming Holy Spirit guidance cannot see the non-truth behind the multiple interpretations of scriptures and different doctrines and teachings from all the different denominations.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

A leader can lead without being in authority. I can lead somebody to the store, but they may choose a different way, and have no requirement to follow me. I did use the word obey, and I do agree that there will be times when we will obey and times when we will need to decide for ourselves what we believe. After all the profession of faith does say or will soon say “I believe”

In a true hierarchy the leaders are ranked one above the other according to status or rank of authority.

Where in scriptures does it say ‘obey and be subject, but there will be times you have to think for yourself?’ Where does it say, ‘obey and be subject, but it’s not a requirement?’ It appears you’ve ventured outside of scriptures.

Obey and be subject is under authority, no matter what kind of spin one attempts to put on it.

If all we needed to do was believe, why are there so many more scriptures than John 3:16?

As for the rest, we are warned often in scripture that we will have to watch out for false teachers, or those who have fallen into error and no longer teach the truth.
2 Peter 2 1-3
1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Acts 20:29-3)"'I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears".
Romans 16:17–18 (NLT)

17 And now I make one more appeal, my dear brothers and sisters. Watch out for people who cause divisions and upset people’s faith by teaching things contrary to what you have been taught. Stay away from them.

So now God left 1500 years of generations of people in error, without His truth?

Wasn’t the reformation a birth of many, many divisions? With all the denominations, with different doctrines/teachings, which are wolves and which are sheep? You can’t see it for pointing a finger at the ONE Church that preserved those scriptures since the beginning so you have them today. The Church had the New Testament specifically in their possession for 1500 years, but now the Protestants have them and disagree with each others interpretations, but you all know them better than the Church that preserved them so you have them today? I don’t see the logic in that. That’s one of the main reasons I converted to Catholicism.

The Church not only received the scriptures from the authors, they received the understanding, or interpretations. That’s the traditions that Paul said hold too, whether by epistle or by word.

You have denied all authority within the Church. Read Nehemiah 8 and see how God’s word was always interpreted by the people, or that the leaders read them to the people and explained them, causing the people to understand. There was always an authority and Christ didn’t change that. There were times He spoke to the multitudes and times He spoke to His chosen and appointed. Read carefully and see, they were not given the same instructions.

How can so many interpretations of scriptures equal ONE truth? Reasonably explain that one and I’ll be convinced.

 

[Modestly_Anne]

Where in scriptures does it say ‘obey and be subject, but there will be times you have to think for yourself?’ Where does it say, ‘obey and be subject, but it’s not a requirement?’ It appears you’ve ventured outside of scriptures.

Obey and be subject is under authority, no matter what kind of spin one attempts to put on it.

If all we needed to do was believe, why are there so many more scriptures than John 3:16?

So now God left 1500 years of generations of people in error, without His truth?

Wasn’t the reformation a birth of many, many divisions? With all the denominations, with different doctrines/teachings, which are wolves and which are sheep? You can’t see it for pointing a finger at the ONE Church that preserved those scriptures since the beginning so you have them today. The Church had the New Testament specifically in their possession for 1500 years, but now the Protestants have them and disagree with each others interpretations, but you all know them better than the Church that preserved them so you have them today? I don’t see the logic in that. That’s one of the main reasons I converted to Catholicism.

The Church not only received the scriptures from the authors, they received the understanding, or interpretations. That’s the traditions that Paul said hold too, whether by epistle or by word.

You have denied all authority within the Church. Read Nehemiah 8 and see how God’s word was always interpreted by the people, or that the leaders read them to the people and explained them, causing the people to understand. There was always an authority and Christ didn’t change that. There were times He spoke to the multitudes and times He spoke to His chosen and appointed. Read carefully and see, they were not given the same instructions.

How can so many interpretations of scriptures equal ONE truth? Reasonably explain that one and I’ll be convinced.

Why is it you asked for verses that you said didn’t exist, I gave them to you, and then you change it all around again and bring it back to a different point.

Honestly, it’s late…Good night, and God Bless.

 

[onmyknees]

Many Protestants read the Gospel of John and apply the promises of Christ to themselves individually, including the promises of the Holy Spirit guiding them in all truths. What they miss is the context of who is being spoken too by Christ. There are times Christ spoke to the multitudes and times He only addressed those He chose and appointed over His Church. If one starts at John chapter 13 and reads through, only the Apostles are present until John 18, when they came to arrest Jesus. Those things spoken apply to the Church, through the authoritative men appointed by Christ.

Christ never appointed multitudes, or commanded them to go out and preach the Gospel. This doesn’t mean we aren’t to be an example, we are, however we are limited by our positions within the Church as laity.

Yet, many of those Protestants claiming Holy Spirit guidance cannot see the non-truth behind the multiple interpretations of scriptures and different doctrines and teachings from all the different denominations.

Yes, I know that is why I specifically said that Jesus said to His apostles (His audience) . We must always know who His audience was when He spoke because it makes a big difference.

 

[Esdra]

And how do those Protestants know the Catholic Church was in error for the first 1500 years?

Scriptures tell us that Christ said He would be with His Church until the consummation of the world. Where does scriptures tell us that 1500 years of people would not have Him with them through His Church?

Dear brother prodigalson1,

I have already written that this is worth another thread. I don’t want to bring an entirely other topic from the OP into this thread!