Wrong for Roman Catholic to Have Icons?

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I don’t really know anything about Abbot George or his group, but there are Indian Orthodox and Roman Catholic monasteries in India that call themselves “ashrams” (one of which translates and publishes the Indian Orthodox Daily Office).

These do engage in a kind of “Hindu inculturation” following the lead of the Italian missionary Roberto DeNobili.

Inculturation is always a sensitive and difficult enterprise and should only be done by those who have been well trained in the process.

Christianity’s failure in Asia has tended to be, according to some observers, because of its close links with European culture. Until Christianity can be recast in an Asian context, it isn’t going anywhere far there.

Alex
 
ClamDigger said:
I find it very hard to believe that a company that makes solely Christian icons (excluding, perhaps, one icon of Mahatma Gandhi) are a Hindu sect or an ashram. If that were the case, why wouldn’t they make icons of Krishna and Shiva as well? :confused:
Not saying their icons are great, but I really see no basis for the above accusation.
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Images of their filed tax documentation show a hindu cult at the location DBA Monastery Icons, and it’s run by “Abbot” George. I doubt the Orthodox priest would be doctoring those to slander someone.

Keep in mind, from a business standpoint: hindus are less common in the US than are the combined Orthodox and Eastern Catholics. And many non-EC non-EO non-OO individuals of christian belief will buy icons “for the pretty pictures of Jesus.”

Some non-Eastern groups will use icons for their teaching value as illustrations of various events in the bible.

Also, remember: there is also a strong anti-pagan sentiment in the US. Passing themselves off as christians is a survival trait.

The actual implications are that they are a syncretic cult hybridizing hindu and christian traditions. Still not the kind of people that I want making icons.
 
Aramis said:
Because you support a group of heretics in their heresy by so doing.
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That was NOT the intention when buying the icon. I understand that feelings may run high about Monastery Icons, but putting words into somebody’s that they didn’t say is WAY WAY over the line. Why not ask the buyer if they INTENDED to support herasy, or if that is just YOUR spin on it all?:tsktsk:
 
BVM_1221 said:
That was NOT the intention when buying the icon. I understand that feelings may run high about Monastery Icons, but putting words into somebody’s that they didn’t say is WAY WAY over the line. Why not ask the buyer if they INTENDED to support herasy, or if that is just YOUR spin on it all?:tsktsk:
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There was no accusation. The comment was laid out "I don’t see what the big deal is about who you order from … " and the answer to that was correct.

If we know we are supporting heresy we stop. If we don’t know, what can be said about that?

Forewarned is forearmed.

Now you know.
 
ciero said:
Maybe a bit of education would help you out a bit…try reading the link supplied earlier…it has been proven time and time again that these people are hardly Christian in any way shape or form…and should not be supported… I guess there just isnt enough business selling Krishna and Shiva! “Abbot George” has said himself when I met him years ago that they were associated with a ashram and were trying to be both Christian and Hindu together…whatever that means. 🤷
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I read the links and all I saw were an earlier forum in which people had made unverified claims about the company and a letter from a priest about the company. My mother once heard from her priest in the 1980’s that a famous designer came out as a Satanist on live television, which he heard from someone who “actually saw it”. Of course, it turned out later that it was not true and that my mother’s priest had been misinformed.
Also, Hindu-Christian syncretism is very common. However, every group that does that and sells items always sells BOTH Hindu AND Christian items. I’ve never seen one where they sell only Christian items, ESPECIALLY while masquerading as being only Christian and not Hindu.
For example, here is a link to the store of a Hindu ashram that practices a syncretism of Hinduism and Christianity:
mas-india.com/
 
Aramis said:
Images of their filed tax documentation show a hindu cult at the location DBA Monastery Icons, and it’s run by “Abbot” George. I doubt the Orthodox priest would be doctoring those to slander someone.
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Where are these images of their tax documentation and how did he obtain them?
Aramis said:
Keep in mind, from a business standpoint: hindus are less common in the US than are the combined Orthodox and Eastern Catholics. And many non-EC non-EO non-OO individuals of christian belief will buy icons “for the pretty pictures of Jesus.”
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Yes and non-Catholics/Orthodox will also buy a “pretty picture of Jesus/Mary/Saint Such-and-such” from a website that sells both Hindu and Christian products.
Aramis said:
Some non-Eastern groups will use icons for their teaching value as illustrations of various events in the bible.
Also, remember: there is also a strong anti-pagan sentiment in the US. Passing themselves off as christians is a survival trait.
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Not really…
Aramis said:
The actual implications are that they are a syncretic cult hybridizing hindu and christian traditions. Still not the kind of people that I want making icons.
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Me neither. I still, however, have not seen concrete proof that the creators of the Monastery icons are Hindu-Christian cultists.
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
I have this from Monastary Icons, and I love looking at it every day.

monasteryicons.com/monasteryicons/Item_Our-Lady-of-Light-Fine-Art-Tapestry-medium_759S_ps_dpr.html

I don’t see what the big deal is about who you order from, as long as you are getting a lot of spiritual renewal from the sight of the icon.
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Indeed. Especially since there is nothing blasphemous or heretical about their icons. Maybe they don’t follow the traditional form all the time, but neither did the icon of Theotokos Seeker of the Lost when it was first written.
 
Yes. In reading through some of the objections to the Monastery “icons”. I can understand as to why there is an objection on the part of Eastern Christians to call the Monastery religious images “icons”, since the word “icon” has a very specific meaning for an Eastern Christian and these paintings or images do not satisfy that definition and those criteria required for a religious image to be called an “icon”. . However, even though these paintings may not be “icons” in the strict Eastern Christian definition of the word, I don’t see anything wrong with them, especially if they have been blessed by a priest. Haven’t there been in history Catholic Churches and architectural monuments created and overseen by people who were not Catholics? Would that mean that we should not pray in those Churches? Don’t pray in a Church because a Protestant heretic had helped with installing benches near the altar? This sounds a bit ridiculous to me. There is also, one Church in Spain, which was originally built and used by Moslems for Islamic worship, and yet it is today a Catholic Church. So I don’t see the objection to purchasing images which were produced by Hindus or others, but have a Christian spiritual quality to them.
I would agree though, that it is probably misleading to call them “icons”. There seems to be a valid objection on that point.
BTW, some Hindus are wonderful people, with a serious attitude toward life, and make good neighbors.
 
BVM_1221 said:
That was NOT the intention when buying the icon. I understand that feelings may run high about Monastery Icons, but putting words into somebody’s that they didn’t say is WAY WAY over the line. Why not ask the buyer if they INTENDED to support herasy, or if that is just YOUR spin on it all?:tsktsk:
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“If a just man reproves me it is kindness” - Psalm 140 (Byzantine numbering).

I suggest you go read Psalm 140 as it appears in the Byzantine vespers. (The NAB translation is horrid… fortunately, it’s not what’s used.)

I made no claim about intent. YOU judged the intent.

The result of buying from Monastery Icons is the support of heretics.

And that’s good reason to not buy their “icons.”
 
Aramis said:
“If a just man reproves me it is kindness” - Psalm 140 (Byzantine numbering).

I suggest you go read Psalm 140 as it appears in the Byzantine vespers. (The NAB translation is horrid… fortunately, it’s not what’s used.)

I made no claim about intent. YOU judged the intent.

The result of buying from Monastery Icons is the support of heretics.

And that’s good reason to not buy their “icons.”
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Just a question - am I as an Eastern Catholic supporting schism if I buy from Orthodox bookstores?

Alex
 
It depends. Would a RC want it for aesthetic purposes or to decorate their house so people will see “ancient art” or does the RC wish to venerate the icon and use it in prayer? Orthodox bookstores and monasteries have refused to sell icons to people who they thought would abuse them. I’m not saying that the OP in question would abuse icons, but there have been cases of Satanists or even Evangelicals buying icons to profane them.

If you’re not doing those things and want to venerate the Saint, then there should be no problem. 🙂

In Christ,
Andrew
 
Elizium23 said:
Are you familiar with Monastery Icons? They offer many favorite Western devotions in an Eastern icon style. They serve both individuals and parishes with a gamut of sizes and offerings. My mother and I have ordered from them and had good experience with their service and quality of goods. It is a bit like the “best of both worlds!”
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Avoid Monastery Icons. They’re bad news. Look at this article:

phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=46309

Joe
 
Aramis said:
The result of buying from Monastery Icons is the support of heretics.

And that’s good reason to not buy their “icons.”
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Alexander_Roman said:
Just a question - am I as an Eastern Catholic supporting schism if I buy from Orthodox bookstores?

Alex
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Yes. I had the same question. Actually, isn’t it true that according to Roman Catholic teaching, some of the views of the Orthodox are heretical, such as the rejection of papal infallibility, rejection of Purgatory, rejection of the Immaculate Conception, rejection of indulgences, and some reject the validity of Catholic Sacraments? So if a Catholic purchases an icon from an Orthodox bookstore, would he then be supporting both schism and heresy?
I believe that this line of thinking is ridiculous. Should you refuse to drink carrot juice from Israel since you would be supporting a state which is under the authority of religious clerics who reject Jesus as the Messiah? Since we pray before and after meals, should we then make sure that every piece of food that we eat has not been touched by a heretic?
 
Grace and Peace,

All I can say is our Catholic family has a whole house full of Eastern Icons and all of them have been Blessed by an Orthodox Priest, who is also a very close friend, and spiritual advisor to our family.

For years we’ve venerated them and have attended Orthodox Vespers and Great Vespers has the local OCA Parish. I see a great deal of value with having Eastern Icon reenter the Western Church Tradition.
 
ClamDigger said:
Where are these images of their tax documentation and how did he obtain them?
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Business’ state tax records are public records in many states. Federal are just a FOIA request away.
Business licenses are public record; you can look them up, and for some states, do so online for free.
 
Aramis said:
Business’ state tax records are public records in many states. Federal are just a FOIA request away.
Business licenses are public record; you can look them up, and for some states, do so online for free.
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Wow. How strange. I looked it up online and they are not public in my state as far as I can tell, but they do seem to be public in other states! Very interesting!
 
chrisb said:
Grace and Peace,

All I can say is our Catholic family has a whole house full of Eastern Icons and all of them have been Blessed by an Orthodox Priest, who is also a very close friend, and spiritual advisor to our family.

For years we’ve venerated them and have attended Orthodox Vespers and Great Vespers has the local OCA Parish. I see a great deal of value with having Eastern Icon reenter the Western Church Tradition.
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Right. Western Europe had its churches covered in iconic frescoes. Italy, France and Germany come to mind in the first millennium. I see icons as more inviting than statues, personally.

In Christ,
Andrew
 
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