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Arwing
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Isn’t it intrinsically evil though? As in the action is in itself evil. Culpability is another matter.
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LittleFlower378
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Yes Arwing, well said.
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TheOldColonel
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Please quote any Church document applying your technical use of the term “intrinsically evil” to the topic. You simply won’t find one.
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Pup7
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The only place I find it is in third party references, although I found this in the Catholic Encyclopedia:
Within the Church’s teaching on human sexuality, masturbation is considered to be objectively disordered or intrinsically evil (in se malum or intrinsece malum); that is, no circumstances or intentions can render the action of masturbation “morally good.” The degree or seriousness of the moral culpability of a particular act of masturbation, however, can be judged only in light of the degree of the moral agent’s knowledge, freedom, and intentions. Full moral guilt requires a fully deliberate choice of what the person sufficiently realizes to be seriously evil, which can then be evaluated as gravely, or mortally, sinful. If the act is performed with only partial realization or only partial choice of the will, the person is presumed to be guilty only of venial sin. “One must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability” (CCC, n. 2352).
But I can’t find that phrase in anything published by the Church herself, no matter how many ways I Google the thing.
Wiki says the Latin phrase can indeed mean “bad” or “evil” - although Wiki seems to show that the syntax as provided above is incorrect.
en.wikipedia.org
However, I seriously cannot equate the act with other things we know are evil - like murder, for example. I can’t logically believe that the penalties for these two things are the same.
Within the Church’s teaching on human sexuality, masturbation is considered to be objectively disordered or intrinsically evil (in se malum or intrinsece malum); that is, no circumstances or intentions can render the action of masturbation “morally good.” The degree or seriousness of the moral culpability of a particular act of masturbation, however, can be judged only in light of the degree of the moral agent’s knowledge, freedom, and intentions. Full moral guilt requires a fully deliberate choice of what the person sufficiently realizes to be seriously evil, which can then be evaluated as gravely, or mortally, sinful. If the act is performed with only partial realization or only partial choice of the will, the person is presumed to be guilty only of venial sin. “One must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability” (CCC, n. 2352).
But I can’t find that phrase in anything published by the Church herself, no matter how many ways I Google the thing.
Wiki says the Latin phrase can indeed mean “bad” or “evil” - although Wiki seems to show that the syntax as provided above is incorrect.
Malum in se - Wikipedia
However, I seriously cannot equate the act with other things we know are evil - like murder, for example. I can’t logically believe that the penalties for these two things are the same.
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TheOldColonel
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Very nice work and commentary. Indeed, it is a questionable application of the term and certainly not the usage trained moral theologians reserve for acts qualifying for such a label.
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LittleFlower378
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I have a feeling even if I post this Im not going to win.
Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: “in fact both the Magisterium of the Church — in the course of a constant tradition — and the moral sense of the faithful have declared without hesitation that masturbation is an intrinsically and seriously disordered act. The main reason is that, whatever the motive for acting this way, the deliberate use of the sexual faculty outside normal conjugal relations essentially contradicts the finality of the faculty. For it lacks the sexual relationship called for by the moral order, namely the relationship which realizes ‘the full sense of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love.’ All deliberate exercise of sexuality must be reserved to this regular relationship. Even if it cannot be proved that Scripture condemns this sin by name, the tradition of the Church has rightly understood it to be condemned in the New Testament when the latter speaks of ‘impurity,’ ‘unchasteness’ and other vices contrary to chastity and continence.”
Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: “in fact both the Magisterium of the Church — in the course of a constant tradition — and the moral sense of the faithful have declared without hesitation that masturbation is an intrinsically and seriously disordered act. The main reason is that, whatever the motive for acting this way, the deliberate use of the sexual faculty outside normal conjugal relations essentially contradicts the finality of the faculty. For it lacks the sexual relationship called for by the moral order, namely the relationship which realizes ‘the full sense of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love.’ All deliberate exercise of sexuality must be reserved to this regular relationship. Even if it cannot be proved that Scripture condemns this sin by name, the tradition of the Church has rightly understood it to be condemned in the New Testament when the latter speaks of ‘impurity,’ ‘unchasteness’ and other vices contrary to chastity and continence.”
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LittleFlower378
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Not to mention masturbation goes against nature.
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LittleFlower378
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The penalties may not be the same in that murder is even more gave than masturbation, but regardless, they are both objective mortal sins.
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Pup7
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Exactly where is that written? Seriously. Because I have yet to find it. And that’s not what the Catechism says, either.
Also, my understanding is grave matter is grave matter. How is one more grave than the other? That is a total serious question - and if you can point me to where that’s enunciated I’d be grateful. Honest question.
Also, my understanding is grave matter is grave matter. How is one more grave than the other? That is a total serious question - and if you can point me to where that’s enunciated I’d be grateful. Honest question.
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TheOldColonel
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This is not complicated. The misuse of the sexual faculty this way is not “intrinsically evil.” Rather, it is gravity disordered. This is why you will not find such application of the term in church documents. Moral theologians reserve that term for acts which qualify.
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Arwing
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Do we not say masturbation, as in the act itself, constitutes grave matter, and becomes a mortal sin when done with full knowledge and consent? If there is a difference at all I don’t see how it applies here.
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LoyalViews
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Christians can truly be in the state of grace, and lose it. I have always held the opinion that there is too much talk going on here at CAF, and not enough prayer. We ought to pray for you and your dependants, spiritual and physical. God’s love is far, far, far beyond our understanding and description.
Catholics, who know their faith, and live against it, ought to worry. Christians, who know their Bible, also ought to worry - there is a supreme truth, the Church. People who were oblivious to the word of faith, well, I don’t know where they are. No one does. They could be in hell, heaven, or purgatory, or in-between. We do not know. Just keep praying for them. Never cease to remember the mercy of God. Never stop praying for people you hate, love, admire, or condemn.
Catholics, who know their faith, and live against it, ought to worry. Christians, who know their Bible, also ought to worry - there is a supreme truth, the Church. People who were oblivious to the word of faith, well, I don’t know where they are. No one does. They could be in hell, heaven, or purgatory, or in-between. We do not know. Just keep praying for them. Never cease to remember the mercy of God. Never stop praying for people you hate, love, admire, or condemn.
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LittleFlower378
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Every sexual act has to be unitive and procreative or else the act is evil since its moral object is disordered and evil. Masterbation is not unitive or procreative but selfish stimulation of the genital organs. This one is common sense. Masterbation goes agianst nature as well and is intrinsicalky disordered(intrinsicalky evil) and is placed with all the other intrinsically evil sexual sins as stated in my post above citing the CDF.
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Pup7
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Where is it stated it’s intrinsically evil? Where? We’re asking, but we’re not getting a citation from an actual Church teaching that states this. I literally cannot find one.
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TheOldColonel
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An act being morally wrong or even constituting a mortal sins does not necessarily make it “intrinsically evil.” All morally wrong acts, however, are disordered, some gravely.
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Arwing
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So then what is the difference between the object of an act being disordered and being evil?
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LittleFlower378
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Intrinsically disordered means intrinsically evil. CCC 2352
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LittleFlower378
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An act whose object is evil makes that act intrinsically evil. You can also sin by a bad intentions or when the bad circumstances outweigh the good pertaining to actions that are intrinsically evil and actions that are not intrinsically evil.
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Pup7
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That isn’t what 2352 says at all.
2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139
Where is the word evil? Where is the direct correlation you mention?
Here’s the snip. I didn’t edit what’s there.
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2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139
Where is the word evil? Where is the direct correlation you mention?
Here’s the snip. I didn’t edit what’s there.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
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TheOldColonel
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No Catholic Moral Theologian on earth would agree with you.
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