WW2: The Church condoned Murder & Forced Conversions?

[SilverCamellia]

I have just been reading this that I came across:

libcom.org/library/role-catholic-church-yugoslavias-holocaust-se-n-mac-math-na-1941-1945

It discusses the violence in Yugoslavia during the second world war, and says that the Church was very much involved in it, from priests to pope.

Some 240,000 were “rebaptized” into the Catholic faith by fundamentalist Clerics in “the Catholic Kingdom of Croatia” as part of the policy to “kill a third, deport a third, convert a third” of Yugoslavia’s Serbs, Jews and Roma in wartime Bosnia and Croatia

Here is a quote from further down in the article:

While it may be true that individual Catholics risked their lives to save the Jews, Roma and Serbs from the Holocaust, the Catholic Church, as an entity, did not. The Vatican also assisted thousands of Nazi war criminals such as Adolph Eichmann, Franz Stangl (the commandant of Treblinka), Walter Rauf (the inventor of the “mobile” gas chamber), and Klaus Barbie (the “Butcher of Lyons”). Pope Pius XII personally authorized the smuggling of Nazi war criminals, which was directed by his political advisor Giovanni Montini (who later became Pope Paul VI). Shortly before his death in Madrid in 1959, Pope John XXIII granted Pavelic his special blessing. On his death bed, Pavelic held a wreath that was a personal gift from Pope Pius XII from the year 1941.

Now why would a pope want to aid war criminals in such a way?

 

[drfye]

from the “about us” on the website you posted :

" The problem is that every day we recreate a world that wasn’t built to serve our needs and is not under our control. We are not human beings, we are human resources, cogs in a machine that knows only one purpose: profit. The endless pursuit of profit keeps us stuck in boring jobs, or looking for them when we’re out of work. It keeps us worrying about the rent or mortgage payments every month when our homes were long since built and paid for. It keeps the planet on course for an environmental disaster as climate change accelerates and world leaders pontificate. "

" The libcom.org group is a small collective of libertarian communists based mainly in the UK and the US. We run libcom.org, and as individuals are involved with a number of other groups and activity "

" When we are at work, our time and activity is not our own. We have to obey the alarm clock, the time card, the managers, the deadlines and the targets. Work being forced on us like this compels us to resist. "

 

[nitesnake]

I have just been reading this that I came across:

libcom.org/library/role-catholic-church-yugoslavias-holocaust-se-n-mac-math-na-1941-1945

It discusses the violence in Yugoslavia during the second world war, and says that the Church was very much involved in it, from priests to pope.

Now why would a pope want to aid war criminals in such a way?

You don’t really believe all that junk, do you? I’ve never even heard of “libcom.org” before. It might serve your soul better to rely on a valid source.

 

[liturgyluver]

There were terrible atrocities committed in Yugoslavia by the mad fascist, nationalistic and Catholic regieme of Ante Pavolic. Even the SS were apalled by what they saw. There is also evidence (shockingly) that Catholic priests were involved in the bloodshed, but the Church as a whole did not support the butchery and was critical of the regieme’s violence. After the war though there is some suggestion that some in the Vatican helped those war criminals to escape to South America.

 

[JABA]

If the Vatican or Catholic Church was was involved and condoned the holocaust, why is that so many million Catholics and Catholic Priests alike met their deaths through the genocide of the Nazi regime. It does not make much sense.

 

[liturgyluver]

If the Vatican or Catholic Church was was involved and condoned the holocaust, why is that so many million Catholics and Catholic Priests alike met their deaths through the genocide of the Nazi regime. It does not make much sense.

This isn’t about the holocaust committed by Nazi Gerrmany, but a conflict in the Balkans that got conflated with WW2. Just because one happened doesn’t mean the other didn’t.

 

[DexUK]

By the sounds of that “about us” excerpt, I wouldn’t trust this source further than I could throw it.

I would ignore it and find more palatable stuff to read.

 

[sw85]

Pretty rich criticisms coming from deranged serial killing communists, the absolute bottom-feed pond scum of the human race.

 

[edwest2]

I have just been reading this that I came across:

libcom.org/library/role-catholic-church-yugoslavias-holocaust-se-n-mac-math-na-1941-1945

It discusses the violence in Yugoslavia during the second world war, and says that the Church was very much involved in it, from priests to pope.

Here is a quote from further down in the article:

Now why would a pope want to aid war criminals in such a way?

As a student of World War II history, this is a complex subject which requires a lot of research. The circumstances involved all kinds of motivations, and there are no simple answers to these claims.

Yugoslavia was anti-German but it was involved in a civil war with the pro-Axis Chetniks. The Croatians got involved and committed genocide against local Serbians and Roma, while the Chetniks engaged in the ethnic cleansing of the Muslim and Croation population.

As far as what the Church did, that needs clarification. So I suggest the following:

amazon.com/Myth-Hitlers-Pope-Against-Germany/dp/0895260344

amazon.com/Pius-XII-Second-World-War/dp/0809105039/ref=pd_sim_b_2

The Vatican is working hard to make its World War II documents available to historians.

The end of the war was chaotic and many Germans in high positions, whether as members of the Party, the SS or other groups, shed their uniforms and established a system to get out of Germany, Austria and other former Axis-held countries. On the other hand, the Americans, British and Russians made deals or simply kept some alive, since they needed some of these men for their own use, whether in scientific matters or for their intelligence value.

The Americans had three groups involved. The Office of Strategic Services, the lesser known Counter-Intelligence Corps and T-Force. The Americans hid or allowed Nazis to survive and even aided their escape. Klaus Barbie was one such man, and there is evidence there were others. Why? In many cases, because they had valuable intelligence and would prove helpful against the brand new threat, the Russians.

But back to the Church. As the Nazis fled, they did so in civilian clothes with forged documents or copies of official blank documents which they could fill in. These official documents were supplied, in some cases, by the Red Cross. And with different names. The Church helped these “refugees.” There was a real fear at the time that the Russians would take over the rest of Europe.

Were there “forced” conversions? I don’t know.

The Vatican did not have ships or aircraft or submarines. I am still piecing together the information I have as to how Nazis in Europe ended up in Brazil and Argentina, along with Canada and the United States. The ruler of Argentina wanted Nazi technical specialists to upgrade his military, and there were already established all-German communities in parts of South America.

The Vatican was getting reports and intelligence from parts of Europe, but not everything. There is evidence that the Americans knew where the death camps were but did little. And keep in mind, not just Jews but Poles and other undersirable untermensch (less than human) were dying from slave labor. It is not fully clear what they were doing. Some were involved in V-2 construction and building tunnels. I have only fragments related to that.

The Vatican did not have weapons, ammunition or money to send to warring countries. And what the Pope knew, he made it widely known and condemned it.

Peace,
Ed

 

[Robyn_p]

I’ve never heard of forced conversions in Yugoslavia before, and this organization making these claims doesn’t look or sound like a reputable site, judging from their own description of themselves and the lack of historical sources. But even if it did happen (using the articles own way of explaining things) While there may have been individual Catholics who forced people to convert, the Church as an entity is absolutely unequivocally against that sort of thing. In fact that automatically invalidates a baptism according to the Church herself.

And as far as the Church aiding war criminals, weren’t most of them hiding their identity and posing as Jewish refugees at that time? I mean come on, they just lost. Those guys weren’t stupid, they knew they’d get arrested. How could the Church possibly have recognized every single person involved? And when a pope or priest gives a blessing, that does not mean he condones every single sin or action that person ever did. That would mean every time I’ve been blessed the priest supported every thing I’ve ever done. Nope, he was giving me a blessing because I’m a sinner and I need all the help I can get. Maybe that guy the pope blessed asked for forgiveness? We don’t know, the article doesn’t give any specifics except that it was “special”…so what? God never turns away a repentant soul, no matter how heinous their crimes are, so why would the Church?

 

[kelner]

I’ve never heard of forced conversions in Yugoslavia before, and this organization making these claims doesn’t look or sound like a reputable site,

Let me introduce you to Jasenovac, a place which made Auschwitz look like kindergarten:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasenovac_concentration_camp

its commander was a Catholic priest:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miroslav_Filipovi%C4%87

and there were many like him:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_clergy_involvement_with_the_Ustaše

This is not at all strange, because the regime was ostensibly Catholic:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ustaše

There’s nothing strange about it, if you are familiar with the region. You see, in (former) Yugoslavia, there is a never ending conflict between Serbs and Croats. Now, both Serbs and Croats claim that they are separate nations, but this is an exagerration. They’re of the same ethnicity, and they speak the same language, except that Serbs use cyrillic alphabet and Croats use latin alphabet. (After the break-up of Yugoslavia in 1990s, both dialects started to rapidly diverge due to nationalistic policy of both gov’ts, but I digress). The only substantial difference between Serbs and Croats is that the former are Orthodox, while the latter are Catholic. During the war, Croats aligned with the Nazis, debased the Serbs who were in power before, and decided to get rid of them. That involved forced conversion to Catholicism (that effectively made them Croatian) and extermination of those who would not convert. If you got a visit from Ustase, and could not produce a baptismal certificate, they’d cut your throat right there (unless you were a pregnant woman; then they’d cut your abdomen instead). Things got so nasty, that German SS units deployed to the area would protect Serbs and Jews (!!!) from bands of Ustase wandering the country.

And all this was going on right under the nose of the archbishop of Zagreb. After the war, said archbishop was sentenced to jail for collaboration with the genocidal regime. Vatican claimed that the trial was prosecution of the Church by the communists, and got him an early release from jail. Later, JP2 beatified said bishop for his martyrdom in prison:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloysius_Stepinac

And that was something that Serbs found simply insulting. See, Stepinac never condemned genocide nor excommunicated offenders. (The commander of Jasenovac was hanged in 1946, still wearing his franciscan robes, although the order claims that he was expelled back in 1942. No record of excommunication however.) Bishop’s defenders claim that he was honestly unaware of what was happening in his diocese. Somehow, they miss the fact that someone who was unable to notice genocide in his own backyard is hardly suitable to be an example for others…

As for the claims of Vatican rescuing Nazi officials after the war, this is also known and well documented:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratlines_%28history%29

The operation was run by Vatican together with US intelligence. Why save these guys? Well, there were four reasons:

1. At the time, a large part of clergy believed that the biggest danger to the Church are the Soviets, and they chose to align themselves with the Nazis instead.
2. Nazi officials had a couple of secrets, and US intelligence believed that it’s better to let them escape and take the secrets with them, then let them be caught by the Soviets.
3. Nazi officials would come to Vatican under false identity, provided by an underground organization of SS officers (ODESSA). One could argue that Vatican was honestly unaware of who was being helped. Personally, I don’t buy this excuse; it doesn’t take a genius to realize that a non-commissioned officer trying to buy passage to Argentina has too much money for his rank.
4. Last but not least, money.

So, yes. This stuff is true. Make of this what you will.

 

[kelner]

An article about attitudes of contemporary Croatian bishops to genocide in Jasenovac: tapir.pdc.no/pdf/NJRS/2011/2011-01-3.pdf

 

[edwest2]

An interesting story not supported by the facts. For a short time, the Russians helped the Germans with secretly rebuilding their Air Force before World War II. A little later, the German people were shocked by a pact made between the Russians and the Nazi government, but they were relieved that their eastern border was secure, for now. If you look at the number of men and the amount of equipment the Russians had mobilized and produced, just waiting to advance just prior to Hitler turning the tables and attacking first, Russian intentions were clear. On the Eastern Front, one third of the soldiers in the German Army were not German, but they were fighting with the Germans to save their countries from Godless Bolshevism. Ukrainians and others had joined the Waffen-SS.

1. Pope John Paul II made no mistake in beatifying this man, and even the Jews praised him.
2. The Americans decided to stop trusting their Russian ally long before the end of World War II.
3. American intelligence did more damage than anyone. It is still not explained why German Army belt buckles were stamped with Gott mit Uns - God with Us.
4. The Vatican knew how much money these disguised Nazi refugees had? There were various relief organizations that were getting displaced persons (D.P.s) out of Europe. They were afraid to stay. Look up UNRA.
5. There were Germans in South America who could sponsor German/disguised Nazi refugees. That’s all one needed - a sponsor or group. Not money. Just a country willing to take you in.

After the war, the OSS, now the CIA, rebuilt the German intelligence service. With who? Hitler’s chief of intelligence for the Eastern Front, Reinhard Gehlen, and Hitler’s chief of operations, Adolf Heusinger. By 1955, the former enemy became West Germany and a member of NATO under the sponsorship of Chancellor Conrad Adenauer.

OSS documents available at NARA show that money and personnel were both leaving Germany and being sent to South America in 1944, but after the world’s first jet fighter appeared in combat (July 1944), along with the world’s first cruise missile, launched exactly one week after the Allied landings at Normandy, there was great concern as to what else the Germans had. The V-2 supersonic rocket appeared in September 1944, and unlike the V-1, could not be shot down. It fell first on London, and then on Antwerp, reducing the Allied use of the port to 25% of capacity. Other rockets would fall on Liege.

It is quite clear the Church did not condone murder and that “conversions” did not occur by force or were allowed as a temporary, non-binding measure to help others.

1. The true story of US involvement with Nazis during and after the war is here:

amazon.com/U-S-Intelligence-Nazis-Richard-Breitman/dp/0521617944

The Church was right about the Nazis and the Godless Russians. In Mein Kampf, Hitler made it clear that the East was the problem. And it remained the problem for the free world until its collapse in the early 1990s.

Peace,
Ed

 

[liturgyluver]

Forced conversios of Orthodox Serbs did take place. It was the stated aim of the Croation fascist govt to expel, or convert, or kill the Orthodox populations in their midst. Whilst I do not believe the Vatican would have condoned this, there is plenty of evidence that many croation Catholics - priests and laypeople - were involved both in the conversions and the killings at Jasenovac and elsewhere.This took place from 1940 onwards.

 

[liturgyluver]

Absolutely, and the aftermath of this undoubtedly contributed to the atrocities committed - by all sides - during the wars in the 1990s.

 

[edwest2]

Absolutely, and the aftermath of this undoubtedly contributed to the atrocities committed - by all sides - during the wars in the 1990s.

Oh please. The Serbs decided because they lost a battle in some field 500 years ago that they should do some ethnic cleansing in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It’s one thing to start a war because you were attacked and quite another to get vengeance on those “other people.”

Peace,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

Forced conversios of Orthodox Serbs did take place. It was the stated aim of the Croation fascist govt to expel, or convert, or kill the Orthodox populations in their midst. Whilst I do not believe the Vatican would have condoned this, there is plenty of evidence that many croation Catholics - priests and laypeople - were involved both in the conversions and the killings at Jasenovac and elsewhere.This took place from 1940 onwards.

Is there a book available that covers this?

Best,
Ed

 

[liturgyluver]

Oh please. The Serbs decided because they lost a battle in some field 500 years ago that they should do some ethnic cleansing in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It’s one thing to start a war because you were attacked and quite another to get vengeance on those “other people.”

Peace,
Ed

I don’t understand what you are trying to say here.

 

[liturgyluver]

Is there a book available that covers this?

Best,
Ed

Read any book on the history of the Balkans - it is covered. The only dispute appears to be about the numbers killed, not whether this actually happend.

 

[GKC]

Is there a book available that covers this?

Best,
Ed

Google Ustaše and Ante Pavelić.

GKC