WWYD if your parish had liturgical dancers?

[roadsend]

It’s actually up to individual bishops given local traditions and history. You might find this shocking, but a local bishop has the final say on something like this in his (arch)diocese, not some informal comments (even by a cardinal) on a youtube clip. Local bishops even have the ability to dispense with the vaunted “Notitiae” that has been discussed. It may not be a good idea for them to do so, but they can and not understanding that fact leads to great frustration for fun.

Do you have a source for this?

 

[benedictgal]

It’s actually up to individual bishops given local traditions and history. You might find this shocking, but a local bishop has the final say on something like this in his (arch)diocese, not some informal comments (even by a cardinal) on a youtube clip. Local bishops even have the ability to dispense with the vaunted “Notitiae” that has been discussed. It may not be a good idea for them to do so, but they can and not understanding that fact leads to great frustration for some.

With all due respect, this information is incorrect. The bishop’s authority is quite limited. He cannot add anything to the Mass. According to the GIRM, this is as far as his authority goes:

1. The Diocesan Bishop, who is to be regarded as the high priest of his flock, and from whom the life in Christ of the faithful under his care in a certain sense derives and upon whom it depends,148 must promote, regulate, and be vigilant over the liturgical life in his diocese. It is to him that in this Instruction is entrusted the regulating of the discipline of concelebration (cf. above, nos. 202, 374) and the establishing of norms regarding the function of serving the priest at the altar (cf. above, no. 107), the distribution of Holy Communion under both kinds (cf. above, no. 283), and the construction and ordering of churches (cf. above, no. 291). With him lies responsibility above all for fostering the spirit of the Sacred Liturgy in the priests, deacons, and faithful.

He can only regulate the norms currently in place. He does not have the authority to abrogate what the higher authority, in this case, the CDWDS, has ruled. If he wants to change something, he needs to submit his proposal to his national episcopal conference (in our case, the USCCB) and then the group will put it to a vote. If it gets the necessary 2/3 affirimative vote of the Latin-Rite members of the conference, then, the proposal goes to Rome for the necessary recognitio. Rome will either grant it or deny it. Nonetheless, the bishop does not act in a vaccuum.

 

[roadsend]

This is sad, roadsend. …

It is sad and this is only one of many egregious novelties that were introduced during that particular padre’s regime.
Eventually he was promoted to a bigger and richer parish. At least we were rid of him. Deo Gratias.

 

[benedictgal]

It is sad and this is only one of many egregious novelties that were introduced during that particular padre’s regime.
Eventually he was promoted to a bigger and richer parish. At least we were rid of him. Deo Gratias.

Is he doing this at his new parish? I think that a letter to the bishop at the time that you were undergoing this would have been in order.

 

[boatbearer]

Do you have a source for this?

That’s the tough one. Not everything is as clean-cut as some would like. To answer your question, a bishop cannot promote something that is secularly illegal, he cannot promote heresy or an abuse that falls under #172-173 of RS. If he does and if he’s unrepentant, that’s when the Holy See does get involved.

Outside of that you have to take matters one at a time. Yes you can look them up to see if the Church does or does not allow them but to understand if your bishop has the authority to dispense them is going to requite contacting him. If you perceive an abuse that goes on in your diocese I would recommend you write your bishop on it. See what he says. See if he has granted a dispensation for the matter. If he has you can then argue if he has the authority to do so.

Just keep in mind two things. First, he probably does else he wouldn’t have allowed the dispensation. Second, once he has allowed the dispensation, the responsibility rests with him and not the people who make use of the dispensation.

 

[benedictgal]

That’s the tough one. Not everything is as clean-cut as some would like. To answer your question, a bishop cannot promote heresy or an abuse that falls under #172-173 of RS. If he does and if he’s unrepentant, that’s when the Holy See does get involved.

Outside of that you have to take matters one at a time. Yes you can look them up to see if the Church does or does not allow them but to understand if your bishop has the authority to dispense them is going to requite contacting him. If you perceive an abuse that goes on in your diocese I would recommend you write your bishop on it. See what he says. See if he has granted a dispensation for the matter. If he has you can then argue if he has that responsibility.

Just keep in mind two things. First, he probably does else he wouldn’t have allowed the dispensation. Second, once he has allowed the dispensation, the responsibility rests with him and not the people who make use of the dispensation.

Again, the GIRM gives the bishop limited authority. He cannot add anything to the Mass on his own authority. Any changes he wants to impose first need to go through his national episcopal conference and then be sent to Rome (assuming they receive the necessary vote of the Latin-Rite bishops).

Remember, too, that obedience is a two-way street. The bishops must obey the Holy See just as they expect obedience from the faithful in their dioceses.

 

[roadsend]

Is he doing this at his new parish? I think that a letter to the bishop at the time that you were undergoing this would have been in order.

There were several letters to the bishop by various parishioners, I did not hear that any were answered.

 

[benedictgal]

There were several letters to the bishop by various parishioners, I did not hear that any were answered.

If the bishop does not respond, then, the faithful do have recourse to the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. It is within their right to do so. What they need to do is send copies of all of the correspondence they sent to the priest and bishop in question. Furthermore, if another letter to the bishop is sent, it should be sent certified, return receipt requested.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I would tell my pastor (since ours has a special different problem), that I would make a deal with him: He ends the horrible lay preaching 4 x/year, and I won’t report to the authorities the liturgical dancing. But if I hear lay preaching one more time, all of the abuses get reported.

Believe it or not, as pagan as I do find “religious” dancing, I find lay preaching far more offensive and problematic.

 

[boatbearer]

I would tell my pastor (since ours has a special different problem), that I would make a deal with him: He ends the horrible lay preaching 4 x/year, and I won’t report to the authorities the liturgical dancing. But if I hear lay preaching one more time, all of the abuses get reported.

Believe it or not, as pagan as I do find “religious” dancing, I find lay preaching far more offensive and problematic.

But you’re describing a situation where the local bishop WOULD do something about either the liturgical dancing or the lay preaching. Some bishops would not. Then what? The Holy See won’t get involved over liturgical dancing unless perhaps it’s somehow obscene.

I fully agree with you about the lay preaching. Lay preaching is expressly forbidden by the rubrics of the Mass. Liturgical dance/movement/etc. is not.

 

[Rence]

I simply stopped going to that Church and went to another parish.

 

[Elizabeth502]

But you’re describing a situation where the local bishop WOULD do something about either the liturgical dancing or the lay preaching. Some bishops would not. Then what? The Holy See won’t get involved over liturgical dancing unless perhaps it’s somehow obscene.

I fully agree with you about the lay preaching. Lay preaching is expressly forbidden by the rubrics of the Mass. Liturgical dance/movement/etc. is not.

You’re correct about the second paragraph, but how is there any way to know about the first, unless one experiments with asking about the two different issues directly to the bishop’s office? Even though the parish in question is quite liberal and never does anything traditional (nothing devotional, ever; rare confession times, never had a communion rail, has controversial interpretations of some Church teachings, etc.), it’s hard for me to believe that priests would be so public about something that would supposedly earn immediate disapproval by the bishop. Even though I did check the diocesan website, and (this was hard to find!), the “key points” of the GIRM are listed there, with explicit reference to priest/deacon preaching only, I have to believe that the pastor has permission to ‘look the other way’ with regard to this, or why has it been going on now for several years? And since the new bishop was installed some time ago, he has been invited there once, so it’s not as if the parish is keeping the bishop at arm’s distance.

 

[benedictgal]

But you’re describing a situation where the local bishop WOULD do something about either the liturgical dancing or the lay preaching. Some bishops would not. Then what? The Holy See won’t get involved over liturgical dancing unless perhaps it’s somehow obscene.

I fully agree with you about the lay preaching. Lay preaching is expressly forbidden by the rubrics of the Mass. Liturgical dance/movement/etc. is not.

Actually, “liturgical dancing” is a major abuse, whether you choose to believe this or not. Furthermore, the CDWDS will act on this matter if the local ordinary/metropolitan does not take any corrective action.

With all due respect, perhaps you may not quite understand how this works. The course of action is clearly indicated in Redemptionis Sacramentum. Because these “dances” are not a part of the Roman Missal, these are abuses to the Mass. There is no authoritative document from the Holy See that allows for these “dances”. The faithful have a right to a properly celebrated Mass free from abuse. “Liturgical dance” is an abuse.