Wwydiywg?

[You]

Hmmm, that’s true. I wonder how Catholics will respond to this. Hopefully we will get an answer and not name-calling, insults or just a general sense of evasiveness that shows the paucity of their beliefs.

If you are perfectly generous your generosity will know no bounds even to the point of creating free creatures out of nothing to love you and know you.

 

[StarFireKK]

That is another irrational proposition. One cannot “love” what does not exist. And if God had some “surplus” love, which needed an outlet (which would be us), then God DID have a need - to get someone who would be the recipient of this “love”. No matter how we twist it, either God has no need and still engaged in some activity - and then God was irrational, or God did have a need (to create objects for his surplus love) and then God was not fully self-sufficient.

Where do you get this idea that God does not have desires? God desires many things. God created the world because he wanted creatures to love and He created us because He wished to have a creature he could love that could know and love Him. Love begets love.

But I have a question. Since God had a desire to create more creatures to love and did so…how is He not self-sufficient? He had a desire and He had the power to fulfill it. That sounds pretty self-sufficient to me.

 

[StarFireKK]

If you are perfectly generous your generosity will know no bounds even to the point of creating free creatures out of nothing to love you and know you.

Excellent answer!

 

[You]

Excellent answer!

 

[tonyrey]

If I were God, I would make it so that when a pet died, the owner would die too, so that they wouldn’t have to feel the pain of losing a pet. or else pets would live as long as their owners
I would make everyone have the metabolism they want so that they could eat all the food they want and not get fat
I would make the weather better (mid 70s and sunny in most places, warmer at the beach, colder where appropriate like mountains for people to ski). No natural disasters like hurricanes. No rain, there would just be the perfect amount of water everywhere.
I would not give people acne
No insects especially mosquitos and bed bugs
People would not rape or murder or child abuse or any kind of abuse
No STDs
People TTC would get pregnant. People TTA would not.
Phones would not lose service
Dogs would not shed
They would always have your size when you go clothes shopping
Drugs would not exist or else they would not be addictive or harmful
No mental illness, no physical illness, or mental handicaps or physical handicap
There would always be plenty of parking anywhere you went
There’d be no such thing as “too drunk” and no hangovers, people would just get the perfect amount drunk that they would just have fun but not do stuff they regret
Friends (the TV show) would still be on the air (new episodes)
Would never have to shave - would always have perfectly smooth legs or face or whatever you currently have to shave - and guys could grow perfect beards or mustaches or whatever, if that’s what they want
Heels would not be difficult to walk in or hurt your feet after awhile
Babies would not cry or wake up in the middle of the night
Sex would last the perfect amount of time, and both people would orgasm at the same time
Stuff would not break
You would never lose stuff
There’d be no pollution
There’d be plenty of resources, and animals’ habitats would not be destroyed
The population would be the perfect amount, and not grow exponentially to the detriment of the environment (not sure how that would work, since loved ones would not die)
You would not lose your eyesight or hearing, in fact, you would not age, you would always be the perfect age, perfectly healthy, no arthritis or anything like that
You would never be late to work, and everyone would love their job
Batteries would never die
Nail polish would never chip

Is that the kind of answer you’re looking for, Spock? If so, I will write more.

Your fantasy world is farcical because it is not feasible!

 

[tonyrey]

Where do you get this idea that God does not have desires? God desires many things. God created the world because he wanted creatures to love and He created us because He wished to have a creature he could love that could know and love Him. Love begets love.

But I have a question. Since God had a desire to create more creatures to love and did so…how is He not self-sufficient? He had a desire and He had the power to fulfill it. That sounds pretty self-sufficient to me.

The objection throws more light on the objector than the object! His concept of supremacy seems to consist solely of self-sufficiency…

 

[tonyrey]

			*If you are perfectly generous your  generosity will know no bounds even to the point of creating free  creatures out of nothing to love you and know you.  :thumbsup:*
		 		 	 	 :thumbsup: Excellent answer!

Rather than being a miserable miser missing the meaning of love!

 

[tonyrey]

How about work? I suppose you wouldn’t want any challenges, obstacles, or problems. Maybe you wouldn’t even want any work at all; just leisure time to do whatever you wish, a utopia on Earth. Personally, I get bored with too much leisure time, which I rarely have anyhow. I like challenges, obstacles, and problems. I’m not saying a life full of misery is wonderful, but a little misery (distinguishing this from the truly “terrible,” as the great philosopher, Woody Allen, does) provides an opportunity to really appreciate the good and beautiful. Don’t you love a sunny day more after a spell of rain, and a rainy day after a couple of weeks of sun, as well as a cooler day after a heat spell. It’s the George Burns’ philosophy, when he played G-d, so how can it be wrong? I think too much of anything–leisure, work, food, sex, even religion when it takes one away from other responsibilities–may become boring and self-destructive. That’s all I’m saying but I think it makes some sense. And would it be better if we didn’t have the free will to make choices, even when those choices sometimes get us in trouble? Don’t we learn and grow from our mistakes? Do you want everything to be handed to you on a silver platter without any effort, any failure, any loss, any growth? There’s a Twilight Zone about a thief who goes to Heaven–so he thought–and has everything he ever wanted. The problem is, there is no chance for him to be caught robbing a bank or lose in gambling. Without risk, he soon becomes bored and wants out. He discovers, however, he is trapped for eternity, not in heaven but in hell.

Precisely! To expect everything for nothing is to live in a fool’s paradise…

 

[ThinkingSapien]

What Would You Do If You Were God? This question comes up periodically.

Going to twist your question a little so that we have a scenario in which I get to retain my identity. If Yahweh had Universe 2.0 was in it’s planning stages and I were asked for what to do differently I would have a few suggestions.

• Have some one spot-check publications on on him. Historically speaking there have been a lot of publications on various things referred to as “the God” or gods. When you see all the material it’s difficult to figure out the truth values of them all.
• If there can only be ten commandments condense the first 4 into one commandment and use the other three to command against slavery, hostile invasions of the lands of others, or promoting the equal treatment of women and behaviours that would contribute to avoiding germs and so on. Or perhaps put things like this in the other ten commandments instead
  of the stuff about cooking goats with milk and the festival of weeks.
• There’s a good bit of material in the O.T. that I think inspired some pretty brutal events in history. Let’s leave some of those things out (ex: suffering not a witch to live)
• Promote science so that we don’t encounter people that think science and religion
• About that tree that bears fruit that will result in death when some one eats from it, how about leaving that out of the garden of Eden along with the deceptive snake. That might eliminate the need for the other items all together.
  conflict.

That’s what immediately comes to mind.

 

[tonyrey]

Going to twist your question a little so that we have a scenario in which I get to retain my identity. If Yahweh had Universe 2.0 was in it’s planning stages and I were asked for what to do differently I would have a few suggestions.

• Have some one spot-check publications on on him. Historically speaking there have been a lot of publications on various things referred to as “the God” or gods. When you see all the material it’s difficult to figure out the truth values of them all.
• If there can only be ten commandments condense the first 4 into one commandment and use the other three to command against slavery, hostile invasions of the lands of others, or promoting the equal treatment of women and behaviours that would contribute to avoiding germs and so on. Or perhaps put things like this in the other ten commandments instead
  of the stuff about cooking goats with milk and the festival of weeks.
• There’s a good bit of material in the O.T. that I think inspired some pretty brutal events in history. Let’s leave some of those things out (ex: suffering not a witch to live)
• Promote science so that we don’t encounter people that think science and religion
• About that tree that bears fruit that will result in death when some one eats from it, how about leaving that out of the garden of Eden along with the deceptive snake. That might eliminate the need for the other items all together.
  conflict.

That’s what immediately comes to mind.

It is significant that you have confined your attention to the O.T…

 

[ThinkingSapien]

It is significant that you have confined your attention to the O.T…

It’s just a starting point with low hanging fruit. For the N.T. vicarious redemption is what catches my attention and worthy of changing or total replacement. But get rid of the tree from the O.T. and the N.T. doesn’t seem necessary.

There’s a great deal of variance in interpretations of the N.T. though and other things I see worthy of change vary from one denomination to another. Some denominations see the N.T. as reinforcement of maintaining the ways of the O.T., others see it as doing away with them. Some denominations believe hell exists, others don’t. Some believe Jesus is God, some don’t, and so on. NT changes start to become denomination specific.

 

[samiam1611]

How about work? I suppose you wouldn’t want any challenges, obstacles, or problems. Maybe you wouldn’t even want any work at all; just leisure time to do whatever you wish, a utopia on Earth. Personally, I get bored with too much leisure time, which I rarely have anyhow.

Currently, you get bored when you have leisure time in this life but if I were your god I would make a world where you would not feel bored; I would supply you with an endless amount of fun things to do.

I like challenges, obstacles, and problems.

Awesome! If you recall, I said everyone would like their job. So you can have a job with some challenges and obstacles. But I will take away the annoying problems like budget cuts or paperwork or incompetent coworkers and you can have some just-right challenges - not insurmountable ones, just right.

I’m not saying a life full of misery is wonderful, but a little misery (distinguishing this from the truly “terrible,” as the great philosopher, Woody Allen, does) provides an opportunity to really appreciate the good and beautiful. Don’t you love a sunny day more after a spell of rain, and a rainy day after a couple of weeks of sun, as well as a cooler day after a heat spell.

I love good weather regardless of what it was the day before. :tanning: Granted, if I had NEVER experienced winter :winter:, I might not appreciate it the same. But I would be God so I would make sure people can appreciate how nice it is.

It’s the George Burns’ philosophy, when he played G-d, so how can it be wrong? I think too much of anything–leisure, work, food, sex, even religion when it takes one away from other responsibilities–may become boring and self-destructive.

No such thing as boredom or self-destruction in My World.

That’s all I’m saying but I think it makes some sense.

Yes it does. I totally get what you’re saying.

And would it be better if we didn’t have the free will to make choices, even when those choices sometimes get us in trouble? Don’t we learn and grow from our mistakes?

I would make time travel possible, everyone could just be like “wait - hold up” - and rewind a little bit and fix their mistake the first time

Do you want everything to be handed to you on a silver platter

Pretty much…

without any effort, any failure, any loss, any growth?

I would - as God - make sure that those created ones (humans and others) - would lack nothing to give them a comfortable environment. After all none of those “created ones” desired to be created. To go ahead and “force” someone into life can only be excused if that life is pleasant and comfortable.

what he said^

p.s. Tony, I know this is not feasible, but hey I am just having some fun, and look, I got to use some smilies I’ve never used before!

 

[jochoa]

What Would You Do If You Were God? This question comes up periodically. Of course the answer is too simple: “NOTHING”. From the pinnacle all roads lead downhill. A perfection cannot be improved upon, no matter what is added to it or taken from it. The only logical thing would be to do nothing.

As such the posited God of Christianty is an illogical and irrational being. Since creating anything will destroy his “lonely perfection”, only an irrational and illogical being would want to do that. And the believers want to “sell” that kind of illogical being as being “perfect”. It does not work.

I would do things Exactly as He Did.

Unfortunately, I do not know Exactly How He Did Things, but…
Here is a simple draft of my reflections:

1. I would think about what I want.
2. I would want Others, like me, to Freely experience the Awesomeness of Peace and Happiness and Energy. I would want them to Freely choose to be Perfectly Patient and Kind and Motivated. For then, not only would they Experience Awesomeness, I would experience Greater Awesomeness.
3. I would think about what all is required to ensure that the choice to Love is of Pure Freedom, for if it is not of Pure Freedom, I might as well make robots or do no extra work. (The Word)
4. After thinking about many intense and extreme circumstances which is generated from this want, I would ensure that I am ready to be of Perfect Judgment, Mercy, and Punishment.
5. I would think about every small detail of the plan to ensure it would work. (The Word With God)
6. After I was certain the plan would work, I would make it happen (The Word was God).

I have thought of a somewhat simple outline for How God Guides Free Willed Beings to the Goal without interfering with Free Will.

1. I would give My Creations Everything necessary to Enjoy Life, except full Wisdom or Knowledge. They would desire Peace, Happiness, Energy, Wisdom, AND Companionship. I would make sure that I could initially only be known through Faith because if they KNOW I exist, and they KNOW I am All-Powerful, their Will will be Limited by Fear or some other factor.
2. In time, My Creations will lose focus on me. From the Natural Consequence of being Free Willed and Desiring and lacking full Wisdom and Knowledge, they will hit Bottom: A point as to which they are Killing Unjustly in the name of a False Idol (Money, in particular).
3. At this point, I will show them the way in a very calculated and precise manner as to not forfeit their Free Will. I will make My Body become Human. Since My Body will gain a free mind and will, He will be a Distinct Person from Me and He will be My Only Begotten Son.
4. Since I will execute the method Perfectly, My Free Willed Creations will still require faith to choose to Love Me. This need for Faith and demonstration of the Way will continue to Draw Man closer to me, but at the same time Man will still be pushing Himself further away from Me.
5. At the complete time, I will Make My Will become Human. My Will will be of a Free Mind and Body, and will be a Distinct Person. He will proceed from Me and My Son. He will become Perfected Patience, Kindness, Motivation, and Wisdom, therefore He will be known as the Holy Spirit. At the Revelation of the Holy Spirit, The Completeness of My Purpose will be evident to All.

Now, Recognize that you are a Free Willed Being who is Learning about The Son(Jesus) and The Father (His Word), therefore you are proceeding from the Father and the Son. Which means You might be the Holy Spirit we are waiting for, So go and use All your body, mind, will, and Spirit to become One in Patience, Kindness, and Motivation for God towards Others and Yourself as Jesus Did!

Thoughts?

 

[Spock]

How about work? I suppose you wouldn’t want any challenges, obstacles, or problems.

What is the difference between work and play? You get paid for work… that is it.

Maybe you wouldn’t even want any work at all; just leisure time to do whatever you wish, a utopia on Earth. Personally, I get bored with too much leisure time, which I rarely have anyhow. I like challenges, obstacles, and problems.

Well, I never got bored. Not even now - retired - when all my time is “mine”. There are so many things to do - yes, also problems to be solved - that I have no time to get bored.

I’m not saying a life full of misery is wonderful, but a little misery (distinguishing this from the truly “terrible,” as the great philosopher, Woody Allen, does) provides an opportunity to really appreciate the good and beautiful. Don’t you love a sunny day more after a spell of rain, and a rainy day after a couple of weeks of sun, as well as a cooler day after a heat spell.

I would prefer nice weather every day. And nice weather is not static. It can have fluctuations, but never a freezing wind and rain cutting into the bones on a grey, cloudy November morning when you try to struggle to get to your boring job, to earn your miserable keep and your nose is dripping and your feet are wet in your leaky shoes… shall I continue? Thank you… I can do just fine without that challenge.

It’s the George Burns’ philosophy, when he played G-d, so how can it be wrong? I think too much of anything–leisure, work, food, sex, even religion when it takes one away from other responsibilities–may become boring and self-destructive.

Too much of “anything” is bad, there I agree with you. But we can fill up our time with so many wonderful and diverse activities, so that the “too much” will never come up.

That’s all I’m saying but I think it makes some sense. And would it be better if we didn’t have the free will to make choices, even when those choices sometimes get us in trouble? Don’t we learn and grow from our mistakes?

We can, even in that the proposed “utopia”. The beauty of mathematics in in exhaustable, we could spend eons after eoans to dig into its intricacies, and never hit the “bottom”. There are inexhaustibe possible musical pieces we can create and enjoy…

Do you want everything to be handed to you on a silver platter without any effort, any failure, any loss, any growth?

As you can see, my “utopia” is much more complicated than sitting of a beach, drinking Pina-Colada. My “utopia” is inexhaustable.

There’s a Twilight Zone about a thief who goes to Heaven–so he thought–and has everything he ever wanted. The problem is, there is no chance for him to be caught robbing a bank or lose in gambling. Without risk, he soon becomes bored and wants out. He discovers, however, he is trapped for eternity, not in heaven but in hell.

Which reminds me of “heaven”, all of us sitting in the lap of God, and our whole existence is nothing more than enjoying the eternal bliss emanating for God. Yes, I agree, that would be hell.

 

[Spock]

Hmmm, that’s true. I wonder how Catholics will respond to this. Hopefully we will get an answer and not name-calling, insults or just a general sense of evasiveness that shows the paucity of their beliefs.

I hope so, too. And even though generally I am very optimistic, in this instance I feel a bit pessimistic.

 

[Spock]

Where do you get this idea that God does not have desires? God desires many things. God created the world because he wanted creatures to love and He created us because He wished to have a creature he could love that could know and love Him. Love begets love.

Well, I heard so many times that God “needs” nothing, God is totally “self-sufficient” - which contradicts the idea that God has “desires”. A “desire” means the lack of something and the “wishing” to fulfill that “lack”. It is logically contradictory to say that God “lacks nothing” and that God has “desires”. What could someone “desire” if one already has “everything he needs”??? In your interpretation God “lacked” us, who can receive his love, and he wished to be loved by us. That is also a need.

But I have a question. Since God had a desire to create more creatures to love and did so…how is He not self-sufficient? He had a desire and He had the power to fulfill it. That sounds pretty self-sufficient to me.

Not exactly self-sufficient - since he needed us to make the “world” complete. What you say is quite logical, but incomplete. To have a need, and to have to power to fulfill that need, is not the same as to have no need at all.

 

[babylonsfalling]

What Would You Do If You Were God? This question comes up periodically. Of course the answer is too simple: “NOTHING”. From the pinnacle all roads lead downhill. A perfection cannot be improved upon, no matter what is added to it or taken from it. The only logical thing would be to do nothing.

As such the posited God of Christianty is an illogical and irrational being. Since creating anything will destroy his “lonely perfection”, only an irrational and illogical being would want to do that. And the believers want to “sell” that kind of illogical being as being “perfect”. It does not work.

You know…it’s fine to play Spock on the internet if you like but you often seem to be taking yourself WAAAAAY too seriously.

There is no rule that says it illogical that man’s free choice allowed him to screw up God’s perfect creation…and just because you like playing Spock doesn’t mean you get to declare such rules.

What is CLEARLY illogical though is the atheist inability to stop going on and on and on about a God he supposedly thinks isn’t even there in the first place.

 

[Wardog]

That is another irrational proposition. One cannot “love” what does not exist.

When I got married I knew that I would love my children who were not yet conceived. I don’t find that irrational. And it proved out to be true four times.

 

[Spock]

When I got married I knew that I would love my children who were not yet conceived. I don’t find that irrational. And it proved out to be true four times.

Your words: “would love” indicates the future. Until those children came around, you could love the prospect of those children, the happy expectation of those children - but you could not have loved those children, since they did not exist YET. It is not irrational to say that you will love those children if and when those children come into existence.

 

[Wardog]

Your words: “would love” indicates the future. Until those children came around, you could love the prospect of those children, the happy expectation of those children - but you could not have loved those children, since they did not exist YET. It is not irrational to say that you will love those children if and when those children come into existence.

So God, saying He would love us, is not irrational. But God saying He does love us is irrational because we don’t exist. Except that we believe that God exists outside of time, so he can love us before we exist.
Seems you are hung up on grammar and miss the greater point. God would love us, does love us and wants to love us. Note I am not saying needs to love us.