WYD Final Mass

[JimR-OCDS]

Perhaps you didn’t read the explanation I quoted from Cardinal Arinze. The clergy were concelebrating with the Holy Father. What they were doing was justified. Had they not been concelebrating, that would have been an entirely different matter altogether. Had they been in choir dress, then, they would not have done what they did. That also goes for the bishiops and cardinals who were also concelebrating with the Pope.

I didn’t say it was not justified, nor against any rubric.

What I said was, that there were obvious problems with it, that was clear to anyone who watched it. Even the priest themselves looked uncomfortable receiving the precious blood this way.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

grandfather,
I’m not debating on whether receiving via intinction at the WYD Mass by the Clergy was correct or not.

I merely stated that I observed obvious problems. Priest held their mouths over the cup, so that any precious blood would drip back into the cup, even if it came from their mouths. Others, was seemed like they were hesitating, took the host after dipping it, and didn’t know whether to hold their hands under it, or just rush it as fast as they could into their mouths.

Sorry if my observation is upsetting for you.

Jim

 

[brigid12]

If we can step back from the particular issue on hand to look at a bigger one that it highlights it might help us to see the general condition of the Church. There are many issues about what is proper or not liturgically that are constantly being debated.

In this case the Church has been living with this Sacrament, confecting It, distributing It, for two millenia. How is it possible we are now confused about how to go about it? How can there be debate and turmoil over how to do something we have been doing since the beginning? How can there be confusion over something that is so basic to who we are and have always been?

This is not an isolated bit of confusion. How many other issues are there that should be long settled so we can go forward living the Sacramental life without confusion and discord? We don’t know how to receive Holy Communion anymore?

Why is there so much turmoil over things that should be basic to Catholic life? What caused all of this confusion? We can debate how to settle a controversy. That is about what to do next. But where did it come from? What is the cause of the trouble?

I can see who it may have come from (and, no, I am not casting aspersions on anyone at all nor criticizing the HMC nor denigrating any one person in the HMC or this forum, etc…:nope: ). It would appear that all Catholics need to drop the in-fighting and put on their spiritual battle-gear, as spoken of in Ephesians!

 

[grandfather]

grandfather,
I’m not debating on whether receiving via intinction at the WYD Mass by the Clergy was correct or not.

I merely stated that I observed obvious problems. Priest held their mouths over the cup, so that any precious blood would drip back into the cup, even if it came from their mouths. Others, was seemed like they were hesitating, took the host after dipping it, and didn’t know whether to hold their hands under it, or just rush it as fast as they could into their mouths.

Sorry if my observation is upsetting for you.

Jim

Your observation does not upset me. My point was the Church is in a state of confunsion on this and many issues. The fact that we are confused about something we have been doing for 2,000 years is a statement not about intinction, but the general state of affairs, a general condition. Its like forgetting to ride a bicycle that you rode to work for ten years, or forgetting your way to work after going to the same place every day for ten years.

The Mass is the same, or how to do liturgy. Not only was the goofy almost naked dance totally ridiculous and meaningless, not even tangential to the purpose of the sacrifice of the Mass, a silly show or performance, but it is disconnected from what the Church has done forever. It is a radical reparture in understanding and liturgical behavior.

The Mass was revolutionized forty years ago and today we can’t figure out how to receive Holy Communion. For the Church this is like forgetting how to breathe. It is a symptom of something very wrong, or gone wrong.

There should not be any controversy here. There is. That in itself, especially on something so fundamental to who we are and what we do is a sign that says we are seriously confused and in trouble.

 

[brigid12]

The Mass was revolutionized forty years ago and today we can’t figure out how to receive Holy Communion. For the Church this is like forgetting how to breathe. It is a symptom of something very wrong, or gone wrong.

There should not be any controversy here. There is. That in itself, especially on something so fundamental to who we are and what we do is a sign that says we are seriously confused and in trouble.

:yup:

 

[mozier]

Well, despite myself being a traditional, Latin Mass-type Roman Catholic, I actually LIKED the liturgical dance done at the papal mass as the gospel book was brought up!

Keeping in mind, of course, that there is a world of difference between what I saw at the papal mass and what I have (unfortunately) seen in the past, that is, some women in tights doing yoga near the altar to Anne Murray’s “You Needed Me.”

 

[benedictgal]

Well, despite myself being a traditional, Latin Mass-type Roman Catholic, I actually LIKED the liturgical dance done at the papal mass as the gospel book was brought up!

Keeping in mind, of course, that there is a world of difference between what I saw at the papal mass and what I have (unfortunately) seen in the past, that is, some women in tights doing yoga near the altar to Anne Murray’s “You Needed Me.”

However, we need to remember that this was not the appropriate venue for this type of dance. The Mass is not some multi-cultural mish-mash where each culture is celebrated. God is the focal point of the Mass. Had the Holy Sacrifice been offered with a majority of the indigenous peoples present, then, the processional dance would have been quite suitable. However, this was not the case at all. It was a sincere, yet misguided and inapprorpriate effort to include something in the Mass that has no basis in the Roman rite.

 

[frommi]

However, we need to remember that this was not the appropriate venue for this type of dance. The Mass is not some multi-cultural mish-mash where each culture is celebrated. God is the focal point of the Mass. Had the Holy Sacrifice been offered with a majority of the indigenous peoples present, then, the processional dance would have been quite suitable. However, this was not the case at all. It was a sincere, yet misguided and inapprorpriate effort to include something in the Mass that has no basis in the Roman rite.

sigh

It was not inappropriate to do such a thing during a mass in Australia. It would be out of place in Rome clearly…

Australia was HOSTING the mass. One uses their translations, their hymns, etc.

And I still have never figured out why you fear celebrating cultures? If we’re all made in his image and likeness, we should celebrate all the images.

 

[benedictgal]

sigh

It was not inappropriate to do such a thing during a mass in Australia. It would be out of place in Rome clearly…

Australia was HOSTING the mass. One uses their translations, their hymns, etc.

And I still have never figured out why you fear celebrating cultures? If we’re all made in his image and likeness, we should celebrate all the images.

But, the Mass is not about the country you are visiting. The Mass is the universal prayer of the Church. Inculturation is geared towards indigenous people in missionary territories, not for internaitonal celebrations for WYD. The Mass is not about celebrating ourselves. It is about God. That is the point that, I respectfully submi,t that you and the other proponents of what went on at both WYD Masses, are missing. If you want to celebrate cultures, do that at the Welcoming Ceremonty.

Now, the Olympics celebrate the different cultures represented at the Opening Ceremony. However, once the games start, culture is not a factor. You don’t see the Jamaicans breaking out into song as they sprint down the racetrack. You don’t see the Argentines do a tango during the Basketball gold medal game. Everything has its time and place. Such is the case with the Mass.

Incidentally, for those of you still trying to make your case for the “dance”, why wasn’t it done at St. Mary’s Cathedral? After all, aren’t the aborigines part of Australia?

 

[grandfather]

sigh

It was not inappropriate to do such a thing during a mass in Australia. It would be out of place in Rome clearly…

 

[JimR-OCDS]

grandfather

Your observation does not upset me. My point was the Church is in a state of confunsion on this and many issues.

I disagree. I don’t think the Church is in a state of confusion at all. There is a state of disent from the extreme right, and the extreme left, and they’re not confused about the agenda’s they’re pushing.

Jim

 

[Brendan]

grandfather

I disagree. I don’t think the Church is in a state of confusion at all. There is a state of disent from the extreme right, and the extreme left, and they’re not confused about the agenda’s they’re pushing.

Jim

I don’t know Jim. In the very first post, you yourself admitted to considering the reception of the Eucharist on the tongue while kneeling, while others are recieving standing and in the hand to be ‘divisive’, while it seems that Pope Benedict does not.

That means either you or him is confused about the right amount of unity of posture required at a Mass.

 

[grandfather]

grandfather

I disagree. I don’t think the Church is in a state of confusion at all. There is a state of disent from the extreme right, and the extreme left, and they’re not confused about the agenda’s they’re pushing.

Jim

There is a lot of dissent and disparate agendas within the Church on many topics. Whether that means there is confusion or not is a matter of opinion. JPII gave as a reason for his stepping in to resolve the controversy of ordaining women. He said it was to settle the matter and end the confusion.

Sometimes we can see things in extremities, left and right, east and west. Other times we are dealing with truth. Truth is not an option of this way or that way.

So although those working to have women ordained had an agenda, the Church said that it is not an option. The same is true of any moral or theological truth. It is what it is. We may know it or not know it. What we believe about it does not effect it, but it is essential that we know truth.

The best form of worship is a different matter. The Orthodox pray primarily standing. In the west we pray standing and kneeling, but when we get serious it is on our knees. We all know that we can say great prayers sitting in the bathtub or driving a car.

The fact that there is a lot of debate on receiving Communion says there is confusion. Intinction, standing, kneeling, on the tongue, in the hand, what to do. This will get settled. It is a struggle, but it will get settled and all of our opinions will not matter.