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Holly3278
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Ok, I am glad that you were not insulted.
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graceandglory
Guest
Seems to be more cultural than a spiritual thing. I donât have a problem with it. I donât think of the tree as a Christian symbol though. Perhaps meaning can be read into it, like an anchor can be symbolic for hope, but thatâs about it.And we endure yet another month of people who think they have new info regarding Xmas trees.
What do you think of Xmas tree? Valid symbols? Pagan abominations?
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Yerusalyim
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While I understand your point my point is that there is nothing inherently Christian about decorated pine trees. The name doesnât change that.
A âChristmas Saleâ at a store isnât inherently Christian because itâs called âChristmasâ and a decorated pine treeâŚor any other treeâŚis not inherently Christian just because itâs called CHRISTmas tree. It is a CULTURAL rather than CHRISTIAN symbol.
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pete_29
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:coolinoff: I thought maybe we were being invaded by aliens or the Chinese.
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kalt
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But what culture. It didnât spring from a Jewish culture or a Muslim culture. Itâs a Christian symbol in a Christian culture.
Pine trees used by the âpagansâ and others arenât Christian symbols.
I wonder if weâre defining âsymbolâ in different ways.
Before Christ died on the cross, the cross was a symbol of shame, intimidation - nothing good (like an electric chair or the table people are given lethal injections on, perhaps the wall people are shot against by firing squads). Criminals were killed on the cross, not good people. After Christ died on it, Christians (not Christ) decided to use it as a symbol of Christianity, making it Christian. There is nothing inherently Christian about a cross either, but no one is going around trying to convince Catholics that we shouldnât use it because it wasnât originally a Christian symbol. Iâm not sure that we even know what kind of Cross they used, and so there are many styles. Though only one (maybe none) accurately represents Christâs cross, all are accepted as thoroughly Christian symbols. Thereâs no reason not to accept any other Christian symbol as Christian. What about the fish symbol. Is there anything inherently Christian in it? Do other cultures use it in a different way? A dove? Can it be inherently a Christian symbol when it predates Christ?
The church uses lots of symbols that other religions and cultures use. Incense and candles are just two. I donât there there are many who would say that the candle at the Host isnât inherently Christian because other cultures used candles before Christ was born.
By that thinking, nothing is inherently Christian, because every symbol we have has been used before. Bread? Nope. Used before.
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Yerusalyim
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Not all Christians have Christmas treesâŚthe Christmas tree is unique to Euro-AmericansâŚand it doesnât have a very long history in the grand scheme of things. Take your example of the Cross. Yes, it was, indeed, a symbol of shameâŚbut now CatholicsâŚmost Christians (minus JWs, LDS and a few wingnuts) recognize the cross as the symbol of ChristâŚnot so the Christmas tree. My experience is that most Christians in places like Africa, the middle east, asia, even parts of Europe and South America DO NOT have Christmas trees. So, while the Christmas tree might for you represent some Christian themeâŚfor many Christians itâs just a decorated tree.
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kalt
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So itâs really about longevity?
Iâm sure there are things that Christians in other Christian cultures do that we donât. That doesnât mean that those symbols arenât Christian.
And the cross. Not all Christians use a crucifix as a Christian symbol. Does that mean itâs not Christian? And as I said, people in different areas use different crosses. Does that mean that crosses arenât really Christian - because the same one isnât used everywhere? What about Statues of Jesus and Mary? Some Christians think that they are idols. Does that mean that a statue of Mary in a church isnât a Christian symbol?
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Newbie2
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What about the âHoliday treesâ that are sold at Target, etc.?
Yes, I know, a sad attempt of our society at secularizing the Christmas holiday. I wonder if âHoliday treesâ are labeled as such and sold in other parts of the world?
How about saying that Christmas trees are not a universally recognized Christmas symbol, but are a Christmas symbol that is recognized by some Christians? There are Christians who do recognize the trees as a religious symbol, and there are those that do not, and for those who do not, they are a cultural symbol.
Sound fair?
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peary1
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Although the decoration of fir trees began as a pagan tradition in Germany, the tradition not only carried over into Christianity but became a teaching tool for Christians as well.
It is all from Scripture. The star over the tree is symbolic of the Star of Bethlehem. The tree represents the light from the star as it shines down upon the manger scene which is placed under the tree. The decorated tree also represents the stars, planets and galaxies of the firmament. Garland represents the Aurora Borealis.
The tradition of the Christmas tree could be said now to be a Christian symbol of the Birth of Christ as noted in the gospels.
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kalt
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Christmas Trees in Colombia
msichicago.org/scrapbook/scrapbook_exhibits/catw2004/traditions/countries/colombia.html
msichicago.org/scrapbook/scrapbook_exhibits/catw2004/traditions/countries/colombia.html
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Yerusalyim
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Well, if you want to push a pointâŚthere is pagan use of the cross symbol before that recorded by Christians. But no, itâs not just about longevity, itâs also about general acceptance by people within a specific culture. I would say less than half the Christians use the Christmas treeâŚlike I said, itâs fairly regional to North Europe and the USâŚlarge parts of Italy donât use itâŚmost of AfricaâŚlarge parts of South AmericaâŚetc. What is it that is inherently âChristianâ about a Christmas tree other than the name?So itâs really about longevity?
Iâm sure there are things that Christians in other Christian cultures do that we donât. That doesnât mean that those symbols arenât Christian.
And the cross. Not all Christians use a crucifix as a Christian symbol. Does that mean itâs not Christian? And as I said, people in different areas use different crosses. Does that mean that crosses arenât really Christian - because the same one isnât used everywhere? What about Statues of Jesus and Mary? Some Christians think that they are idols. Does that mean that a statue of Mary in a church isnât a Christian symbol?
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kalt
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Actually, a pine tree is inherently a tree. A cross is inherently wood.
I proved that, contrary to your earlier post in which you claimed that the Xmas tree is âuniqueâ to the US and a few other places, Xmas trees **are **used in SA. Iâm sure I could find Xmas trees on all continents. Where did you get your statistic from?
I just read that in one country in Africa, they use an oil palm for a Xmas tree. Are you saying that for a Xmas tree to be a Xmas tree, it has to be some kind of pine? Iâve seen people use blue spruce, fir, and balsam. Iâve seen a mix of pines on one lot! Iâve seen people in FL use palm trees.
Also, some people around here donât use Xmas trees at all. Theyâre either sick of putting them up and down, or they never liked them in the first place. Does that mean that itâs not a Xian symbol here as well? Unless everyone puts one up, itâs not a Xian symbol?
And what of the cross? There are all kinds. Is the crucifix not a Xian symbol because some Xians, even in our own community, donât accept it?
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Yerusalyim
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From actually living abroad for a good portion of my life and seeing with my own eyes. The Christmas tree is a fairly recent addition to the celebration of Christmas having become popular only within the last few hundred yearsâŚand it is largely a Euro/American phenomenom. There are other places you can find them, but only because of European influences.
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kalt
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Itâs OK that itâs a newer symbol. We all understand that. And itâs OK that itâs a symbol that started in one place and has spread elsewhere. And itâs OK that the symbol isnât popular everywhere. None of that means itâs not a Xian symbol. If the only acceptable Xian symbol has to be from the time of Christ, used absolutely everywhere, and have cropped up everywhere on Earth on itâs own (not spread from another area with the Christian missionaries, travelers, or immigrants), there is no Xian symbol.
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Yerusalyim
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Again, while I understand your point try to understand mineâŚthere is nothing inherently Christian about the Christmas tree other than the name. Large sections of Christianity such as the Greek Orthodox generally donât use themâŚunless theyâve come to the US or other western countries.
I have a reason for my biasâŚas a Chaplain Assistant in the Army working in conjunction with the Equal Opportunity guys we meet complaints about Christian symbols such as Christmas trees being displayed in workplaces, etc. That they are cultural rather than religious symbols is important.
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kalt
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By your definition there is no such thing as an inherently Xian symbol. Thatâs your opinion, but itâs wrong, and as you admit, itâs an opinion based on a bias born of the EO mindset. Itâs a Christmas tree, which is a Xian symbol, which is why others are annoyed by it when theyâre on display. Calling it a holiday tree seems to have appeased the masses. But a rose by any other name⌠The âholidayâ the tree is decorated for is Xmas just the same.
Crosses arenât inherently Xian either. Now, if we can convince you and other EO types that a cross is a holiday cross and not a Xian cross, we can put those up everywhere, too. Oh, and the nativity, too. Since everyone who was ever born, was born of a woman and a man, the nativity is really symbolic of all birth and is therefor a âholidayâ nativity. Put one of them up, too.
Some will settle for saying that a Xmas tree is only Xian in name, so long as they can âget awayâ with putting one on the City Hall lawn, but that flies in the face of reality.
And, while Xians are forced to say that a Xmas tree isnât a Xian symbol to have it displayed, the Jews are allowed to display a whole set of candles and donât have to say that the mennorah isnât a symbol of their religion. Same for the Star of David.
I wish Xians would stand up for themselves and their religion, rather than be weak appeasers to get what they know is right. Itâs a Xmas tree, so call it the Xian symbol it is!
No more Xian wimps!
And as Iâve said twice before, it makes no difference that the tree has spread from one area to another. The cross has, too. And the nativity scenes for that matter. And the Xmas tree is far more ubiquitous than you imagine. A Xian symbol doesnât have to be used by every single Xian in the world to be a Xian symbol. If that were the case, the crucifix canât be called a Xian symbol. Christ on the cross not a Xian symbol?! You see how silly your argument is.
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Yerusalyim
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Actually, Menorahs ARE religious symbolsâŚthe Star of David is secularâŚthe Cross is ChristianâŚthe Christmas tree not.By your definition there is no such thing as an inherently Xian symbol. Thatâs your opinion, but itâs wrong, and as you admit, itâs an opinion based on a bias born of the EO mindset. Itâs a Christmas tree, which is a Xian symbol, which is why others are annoyed by it when theyâre on display. Calling it a holiday tree seems to have appeased the masses. But a rose by any other name⌠The âholidayâ the tree is decorated for is Xmas just the same.
Crosses arenât inherently Xian either. Now, if we can convince you and other EO types that a cross is a holiday cross and not a Xian cross, we can put those up everywhere, too. Oh, and the nativity, too. Since everyone who was ever born, was born of a woman and a man, the nativity is really symbolic of all birth and is therefor a âholidayâ nativity. Put one of them up, too.
Some will settle for saying that a Xmas tree is only Xian in name, so long as they can âget awayâ with putting one on the City Hall lawn, but that flies in the face of reality.
And, while Xians are forced to say that a Xmas tree isnât a Xian symbol to have it displayed, the Jews are allowed to display a whole set of candles and donât have to say that the mennorah isnât a symbol of their religion. Same for the Star of David.
I wish Xians would stand up for themselves and their religion, rather than be weak appeasers to get what they know is right. Itâs a Xmas tree, so call it the Xian symbol it is!
No more Xian wimps!
And as Iâve said twice before, it makes no difference that the tree has spread from one area to another. The cross has, too. And the nativity scenes for that matter. And the Xmas tree is far more ubiquitous than you imagine. A Xian symbol doesnât have to be used by every single Xian in the world to be a Xian symbol. If that were the case, the crucifix canât be called a Xian symbol. Christ on the cross not a Xian symbol?! You see how silly your argument is.
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kalt
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Like I said, the candles are on public property without opposition. The Christmas tree, which is a Christian symbol (as much as you disagree) is there only in oppositions to complaints. And the nativity scenes, which are Christian symbols as well, as banned. In schools in which wearing religious symbols is banned, kids canât wear the Star of David.
It appears that you have a unique idea of what religious symbols are.
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Lapey
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I must comment on your post, I hope you can see charity in my comments, but I feel you need some help seeing truth as opposed to false teachings.
Go to a searchable bible software and type in âincenseâ and you will be amazed at how many times the word is used especially in the Old Testament but also in the Book of Revelation. There are descriptions of how this can be used in pagan worship as an abomination and most importantly how incense is used in Heavenly worship. So are you saying that the improper outweighs the proper? The use of incense in Revelation 7:3 is an abomination??? I donât think so.
Google history of basilicas, you will find that they were used by the Roman government before Christianity was âlegalâ. Once it was no longer the law to kill Christians, these buildings were brought into and constructed as holy and sacred places built and dedicated to the patriarchs of the early Church. I guess you feel once pagan always pagan. Am I a pagan for wearing a cross around my neck??? Can you see the inconsistency of your assertion? Many pagan or cultural symbols have become part of Christian symbolism. Vestments worn for worship rituals are in the same category in a sense. However, from my understanding it developed within the early Church as a âSunday Bestâ type of dress and eventually evolving into what you see today; to suspect, using your words, that the use of chasubles for priests or dalmatics for the deacon as being pagan and improper to the liturgical worship sounds a little paranoid to me. These vestments can be traced much further back, however. I will get back to this later.
To compare the Bishopâs mitre to a nut case in Iran is just dumb, sorry for my blunt take on your post.
The barns you worship in with no statues are the church buildings that your church stole from the Catholic Church during the reformation. The statues, vestments and mitre that you hate are described in Exodus in quite a different way. Do us all a favor and read and study the book of Exodus to see what the Lord commanded Moses to do. You have to remember that Jesus was a Jew, and our roots as Christians are Jewish. Like it or not the Catholic Churchâs roots are in the Jewish teachings of the Torah.
Please read and study the last six chapters of Exodus, 35-40. You will see instructions given to Moses from the Lord about, sacred vestments for priests, mitres, altars of gold, use of incense, statues of golden Cherubim (angels) and so many other items currently used by the Church within holy places and used during the liturgical celebrations.
Now go read the book and then come back here and join the discussion with good information.
Now to the original topic, the tree in my house at Christmas is very much so a Symbol of Christianity. Me and my family understand the meaning of the tree just as we understand the meaning of the Nativity scene which is both displayed on the mantle of our living room and our front yard in life size figures, I guess that is pagan as well.
PS. If you can compare the Catholic Church to the Jehovahâs Witness faith group, you show your lack of knowledge of the Church. Please seek education in truth; it would be great to welcome you and all Episcopalians/Anglicanâs home!
Have a God day!
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Yerusalyim
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Actually, my ideas on what are and are not religious symbols arenât âunique.â The candles are on public property without opposition because theyâre not Christian. Hereâs the deal, liberals only attack Christian religious symbols. LIBERALS have defined the Christmas tree as a Christian symbolâŚthat doesnât make it so. The only time Iâve seen the Star of David banned at a school was because they thought it was a GANG SYMBOL (Latin Kings and others use it as a Gang SignâŚthus not religious. (what school bans the wearing of religious symbolsâŚTHAT would be unconstitutional). Why do I insist the Star of David is a secular symbol? Because the Star of David is on the Flag of IsraelâŚA SECULAR State.
These are issues I deal with constantly in my line of work.
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