Year - Round RCIA Program

[anjoh66]

Something forgotten in the case of Sten Sandmark was the adjuration service im quoting here from

remnantnewspaper.com/Archives/archive-2006-0831-shutz-conversion.htm

In this article also the conversion of Pastor Sandmark is mentioned.

Well, here you can really say that the candidates is treated different than the catechumens as the unbaptized at least must not apologize for his former teaching.

The Abjuration of Pastor Sandmark

Pastor Sandmark announced his intention to join the Society of St. Pius X. In addition, yesterday’s abjuration ceremony was presided over by Bishop Tissier de Mallerais, assisted by Father Schmidberger and Father de Cacqueray—District Superior of the Society of St. Pius X in France.

The ceremony of abjuration took place before the Mass. After a presentation by Bishop Tissier de Mallerais, Pastor Sandmark knelt before the bishop and pronounced a Profession of Faith that included a solemn renunciation of his previous errors and a solemn profession of the Catholic Faith. Then his companion did the same.

After the sung Miserere (Psalm 50), Bishop Tissier de Mallerais absolved the two converts of the canonical penalties that are applied to heretics and schismatics. Then he conferred on them the sacrament of Confirmation, after which they received Communion during the Mass which followed.

The ceremony, solemn and moving, took place in a packed church. It is the first time that a public ceremony of abjuration by a Protestant pastor took place in a church of the Society of St. Pius X.

“The conciliar Church is embarrassed by conversions,” declared Bishop Tissier de Mallerais in his opening address at the ceremony. The polemical expression is exaggerated. On the other hand, it is true that the same abjuration ceremony like the one that took place yesterday at Saint-Nicolas-du-Chardonnet no longer exists in what Bishop Tissier de Mallerais calls “the conciliar Church.” The conversion of pastors Max Thurian and Roger Schutz, the two founders of the Taizé Community, attest to this.

Adding: Here is what Bishop Anders Arborelius had to say about this story:
As a Convert (I was recieved into the Church in 1979 by Monsignore Bernhard Maria Koch) I have myself recieved many Converts into the Church, and every year in my Diocese several Lutheran ecclesiastics, both male and female, become Catholic.
I had entrusted a very faithful and pious priest, the Rev. Dr. Ingvar Fogelqvist, with the task of giving Pastor Sten Sandmark instructions in Catholic doctrine in order to prepare him for his reception into the Church. It is important to prepare the Lutheran ecclesiastics well, or else the danger of their return to Lutheranism exists, something which unfortunately also happens.
After some time, Rev. Fogelqvist has told me, that Sten Sendmark could or would no longer participate in the instructions. He did not inform Rev. Fogelqvist about his absence. Later we got the message that he wanted to convert at the SSPX in Paris, which he then did.

 

[anjoh66]

Can you write DO NOT a bit larger. This has to be made known. There are catechetical sessions that both groups can be involved in together but the baptized ARE different and they are not to be forced to follow the same process as the unbaptized. We have several rites of Full Communion a year. Whenever they are ready they are brought into the Church. We had three kids brought in the week after Easter.

You say they ARE different, so i keep on asking, in what way?

They shouldnt follow the same rites thats true but the process is the same.

How are they different? Are they better persons than the unbaptized?

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

How are they different? Are they better persons than the unbaptized?

It’s not that one group is better than the other, it’s that they’re different and have different needs.

Compare someone who has had little or no catechesis, doesn’t know much about prayer, and has never cracked open a bible, with someone who grew up in a Protestant church, went to Sunday school from the time he was a kid, prays regularly, etc.

Ideally we would be able to offer different classes for the two groups. In reality – at least in my parish – they’d be together because we just don’t have enough catechists to offer separate programs. But the catechumens need the full year of the catechumenate that they get. The candidates may need much, much less time to grasp some of the differences between the Catholic church and the church where they grew up. And the RCIA rites recognize this.

The other difference is the fact that some have been baptized and some have not. The baptized person is in imperfect communion with the Catholic church, but the very fact that they’re baptized means they are counted among the faithful. Thus catechumens are dismissed from Mass before the Creed and the prayers of the faithful – they are not yet part of the faithful. The baptized person stays for the full Mass because – even though they can’t yet receive communion – they are part of the Christian faithful.

 

[anjoh66]

It’s not that one group is better than the other, it’s that they’re different and have different needs.

Compare someone who has had little or no catechesis, doesn’t know much about prayer, and has never cracked open a bible, with someone who grew up in a Protestant church, went to Sunday school from the time he was a kid, prays regularly, etc.

Ideally we would be able to offer different classes for the two groups. In reality – at least in my parish – they’d be together because we just don’t have enough catechists to offer separate programs. But the catechumens need the full year of the catechumenate that they get. The candidates may need much, much less time to grasp some of the differences between the Catholic church and the church where they grew up. And the RCIA rites recognize this.

The other difference is the fact that some have been baptized and some have not. The baptized person is in imperfect communion with the Catholic church, but the very fact that they’re baptized means they are counted among the faithful. Thus catechumens are dismissed from Mass before the Creed and the prayers of the faithful – they are not yet part of the faithful. The baptized person stays for the full Mass because – even though they can’t yet receive communion – they are part of the Christian faithful.

I disagree with you totally!

Just the fact that someone has been baptised doesnt automativally means they are in need of less catechesis.
On the other hand there is the case of the unbaptized who might have reached the level of professor and as such knows far more than most baptised persons.

The baptism is not a criteria for determine ones need of catechesis or not.

Regarding the dismissal from the mass we can see that it is seldom practised today because the reason the early church did so was that the creed was secret and could be a danger if wrong persons found out about it, which is hardly the matter today.

Secondly the catechism itself is saying the opposite about them being a part of the church or not.

Im quoting:
1249 Catechumens “are already joined to the Church, they are already of the household of Christ, and are quite frequently already living a life of faith, hope, and charity.” “With love and solicitude mother Church already embraces them as her own.”

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1249.htm

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

I disagree with you totally!

You’re certainly welcome to do that, but you’re also disagreeing with the Church. She developed and promulgated the Rite, I merely do my best to follow it.

I don’t know if you’ve read the Rite. The section on “Reception of Baptized Christiand into the Full Communion of the Catholic Church” is pretty minimal.

Relevant to your concerns:

1. This is the liturgical rite by which a person born and baptized into a separated ecclesial community is received, according to the Latin rite, into the full communion of the Catholic Church. The rite is so arranged that no greater burden than necessary (see Acts 15:28) is required for the establishment of communion and unity.
2. The baptized Christian is to receive both doctrinal and spiritual preparation, adapted to individual pastoral requirements, for reception into the full communion of the Catholic Church. The candidate should learn to deepen an inner adherence to the church, where he or she will find the fullness of his or her baptism. During the period of preparation the candidate may share in worship in conformity iwth the providsions of the Ecumenical Directory.

Anything that would equate candidates for reception with those who are catechumens is to be absolutely avoided.

 

[anjoh66]

You’re certainly welcome to do that, but you’re also disagreeing with the Church. She developed and promulgated the Rite, I merely do my best to follow it.

I am not disagreeing with the church, as i said the practise of dismissal is not necessary and is seldom practised.

Are you disagreeing with what i quoted from the CCC?

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

I am not disagreeing with the church, as i said the practise of dismissal is not necessary and is seldom practised.

Perhaps in your country they choose not to do dismissals. They are called for in the Rite and every parish I know of practices them. If anything, there’s a problem because many parishes wrongly dismiss candidates as well.

Are you disagreeing with what i quoted from the CCC?

Why would I do that? The whole idea of the catechumenate is that these are people who are learning the ropes, so to speak. They should be exhibiting lives of faith, hope, and charity and those virtues should be growing as they proceed through the process.

I edited my earlier message to give you a couple of sections dealing with candidates. Perhaps they will be of interest.

 

[anjoh66]

My point is that sometimes dismissal is not proper and here we seldom practise this and another reason for the long catechesis is that the country is very seculiar and experience tells us that it is quite usual that lutheran ecclesiastics first converts and later leave the church back to their former denominations and this is because the conversion went too fast.

Meanwhile on the other hand catechumens who has no experience from other denominations converts and stay because they did it out of belief.

It must not go too fast for the candidates nor catechumens.

We live in a christian secular country so the degree of the knowledge between the baptised and unbaptised is quite the same.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I disagree with you totally!

Just the fact that someone has been baptised doesnt automativally means they are in need of less catechesis.
On the other hand there is the case of the unbaptized who might have reached the level of professor and as such knows far more than most baptised persons.

The baptism is not a criteria for determine ones need of catechesis or not.

Regarding the dismissal from the mass we can see that it is seldom practised today because the reason the early church did so was that the creed was secret and could be a danger if wrong persons found out about it, which is hardly the matter today.

Secondly the catechism itself is saying the opposite about them being a part of the church or not.

Im quoting:
1249 Catechumens “are already joined to the Church, they are already of the household of Christ, and are quite frequently already living a life of faith, hope, and charity.” “With love and solicitude mother Church already embraces them as her own.”

scborromeo.org/ccc/para/1249.htm

Remember what the technical requirements of a Catechumen are.

WE need to also stop judging this by human standards. There is a great difference between an Baptized person and an unBaptized person from a Spiritual standpoint.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I think its quite clear that their baptism is recognized and they are not catechumens in the technical term.

How do you differ in treating them? Do you mean that catechumens are less worth than the candidates?

It is quite clear that there is a difference between catholic and protestant faith so the candidates need to get deep into the faith, and if they come from other denominations maybe they even need deeper study and explanation that the catechumens do.

The classes are there to teach them the catholic faith never mind if they are baptised or not. We do not have separate classes for candidates and catechumens as they actually need to get the same knowledge.

Remember that the RCIA is a universal Rite. It assumes the unBaptized are coming to seek the Christian faith from a “pagan” view, knowing little about the Christian faith. It is not assumed that many unBaptized persons are well versed in the Christian faith like many in developed countries. The difference between Baptized and unBaptized is Spiritual, and really only has a little to do with knowledge.

 

[puzzleannie]

You have done a lot on the front end, and with Catechesis, I applaud you and your team. Worry about the back end timing(Reception) in 2011!

I think I need to just wait for the Holy Spirit to handle the timing. I tried for many years to start a Spanish program, but had no candidates. When they came, so did the catechists, and our first year was spectacular, a model for what RCIA can and should be, with fallout still not measured so great has been the grace from the whole experience for the candidates, family, catechists and parish.

Have been obsessing about involving candidates in parish life, because quite frankly when I came we didn’t have a life, but from someplace leadership has sprung up for new vibrant lay initiatives, so newbies can be involved in any type of activity or apostolate that attracts them and to date ALL have become involved in some way, and are still attending Mass here (my harbinger of success).

Worried about adult formation beyond RCIA and Confirmation, and 3 highly qualified motivated people have come to me in the last month eager and competent to start bible study, apologetics and other programs, we are in training, planning and discernment and will be ready to go when this class of candidates is ready to “plug-in”. No more will I have newly confirmed going back to their old congregation because they want a good bible study.

lesson to annie: just do your own job let HS handle the rest and equip others to do their jobs.

I just went to year-round on faith, announced the summer program, invited every family who has ever expressed interest, or who dropped out, and we have 38 families of adults and/or children in sacramental prep. For those who need RCIA, this will be their inquiry period, for those who need sacraments, their initial preparation and both groups will separate for their immediate preparation in the fall under new catechists.

I am old enough to be brave and make leaps of faith, because I know if the program is not meant to be, either the people or the catechists won’t show up, or the roof will blow off and we will have to cancel everything (yes this actually happened 3 yrs ago, and I know now the program I had planned was unwise for that time).

 

[puzzleannie]

You say they ARE different, so i keep on asking, in what way?

They shouldnt follow the same rites thats true but the process is the same.

How are they different? Are they better persons than the unbaptized?

the candidates are baptized, the catechumens are not. To deny that vital difference is to deny the very real effects of baptism, and to deny its importance. They do not differ necessarily in holiness, spiritual or psychological maturity, or even knowledge of the faith because of that difference, but baptism is the difference, not personality traits. Therefore they celebrate different rites at different times, appropriate for each stage in their individual journeys, and marking those transitions

we need to separate in these discussion the catechetical process from the ritual process. Yes it may be and in fact in my experience is usually true, that everyone in the same cohort needs the same teaching, and parish resources may dictate (as they do here for the time being) that all adults come together for the time of teaching doctrine. But the Rites, which are what RCIA is all about, are different and designed originally only for the unbaptized, although adapted for the baptized when appropriate, and acknowledging their different status. Get out of the loop any thinking that status is a word in human terms denoting wealth, honor, popularity or any human value. It is a spiritual designation about a very real difference in the soul of the baptized, which was effected by God through the baptism.

Breaking Open the Word is a specific part of RCIA, directed primarily at the unbaptized as their first systematic hearing of the Gospel, which the baptized presumably have already received, so it is quite appropriate that it be confined to the unbaptized.

the extraneous comments about about the practices of various entities that separate themselves with disdain from the sacramental life of the Church put aside, the conciliar Church is NOT ashamed of conversions nor of the process by which they are fostered, but are immersed in the history and practice of the Church in which RCIA is steeped. Just because they reject it does not mean that rejection has any sound basis. now can we return to our regularly scheduled thread.

 

[anjoh66]

Remember what the technical requirements of a Catechumen are.

WE need to also stop judging this by human standards. There is a great difference between an Baptized person and an unBaptized person from a Spiritual standpoint.

Yes you are quite right but most of the time it is not the catechumens fault as he would recieve the baptism immediately if the church only had let him to do it.

I guess there is not many catechumens who would refuse baptism if it was offered to them, but the church require from them catechesis first before they can recieve baptism.

But if it was up to the catechumens they wouldnt hesitate.

 

[puzzleannie]

Yes you are quite right but most of the time it is not the catechumens fault as he would recieve the baptism immediately if the church only had let him to do it.

I guess there is not many catechumens who would refuse baptism if it was offered to them, but the church require from them catechesis first before they can recieve baptism.

But if it was up to the catechumens they wouldnt hesitate.

well my experience is otherwise, that many are in fact hesitant either because they know the Catholic Church has some hard teachings, and want to understand them better, and don’t know if they can commit. Others, simply realize they don’t know Jesus but want to. Others say they have misinformation about the Church and wish to hear the truth. Still others have a major sticking point and need help crossing that hurdle. Others have a family issue, usually a marriage situation, that needs to be resolved, need guidance through that process, and solid teaching on the reason why the Church teaches as she does about that issue. sometimes the catechumens are wiser about their own journey and needs than we are.

moreover it would be highly irresonsible on our part to allow a catechumen to come to baptism and the other sacraments without assurance that he knows and understands what he is promising, the elements of the faith he will profess, and their implications in his daily life. As in the early church, we must also make sure he understands to be Catholic will mean, in come cases, facing persecution in one form or another.

 

[anjoh66]

well my experience is otherwise, that many are in fact hesitant either because they know the Catholic Church has some hard teachings, and want to understand them better, and don’t know if they can commit. Others, simply realize they don’t know Jesus but want to. Others say they have misinformation about the Church and wish to hear the truth. Still others have a major sticking point and need help crossing that hurdle. Others have a family issue, usually a marriage situation, that needs to be resolved, need guidance through that process, and solid teaching on the reason why the Church teaches as she does about that issue. sometimes the catechumens are wiser about their own journey and needs than we are.

Thats why here in sweden the church promulgate at least one year of inquiry stage so that people will have enough time to find out those things.

After reaching the stage of a catechumen they profess their desire to recieve baptism so the problems or questions that make them hesitate should have been clearified at this stage.

As i said in another post, not two persons are alike and each one has their specific needs and of course it is an impossibility to cover all those needs in catechesis classes, the most important is to listen to persons so that maybe you will get a hint from their own feelings and expressions.

 

[anjoh66]

I think we are in many ways following the same model for RCIA as you do in the USA.

We have some classes for the inquierers following it up with dialogs with a deacon or a priest.

This time can pass on from one year to many years.

After they start the real RCIA classes in september which lasts until the admissio before the bishop first sunday in Lent, then follows the purification and enlightenment which last until the culmination at easter vigil.

Then there is the mystagogy after easter for those recieved into the church.

My opinion is that when a person has reached this stage beginning RCIA they should be sure that they really wanna join the church, that must be clearified in the precatechumenate.

This is how it is done in Stockholm, the pity is that there are no functionaling RCIA in any other part of the country so it is up to each parish, i guess thats another reasons why the bishop issued that decree that it must pass at least 2 years to join the church.

 

[anjoh66]

I am speaking out of experience.

I myself is not initiated catholic, i have been accepted as a catechumen by the church and will myself be in RCIA classes from september this year.

I have spent more than one year in inquiry stage and from the beginning i was not content with it, but as time passed by i came to accept the whole idea and it pushed me to search deeper why we are spending so long time and why it is so difficult to join the church.
It convinced me that it is the best path to walk.

I come from a pentecostal family who was very deeply in to their denomination and they dont accept baptism of children so i was never baptized but was brought up with the scripture and has been partaking in church since i was small.

However i never took the step for baptism as adult, it is just now many years later that i came to think about it.

I am married to a catholic woman civil as i got a previous marriage with a non baptised person that ended up long ago, because of this she also is apart from the eucharist until it is solved.
The diocese has accepted the applyment of the pauline privilege on my behalf but it cant be applied until i get baptised and till then she must be apart from communion, our parish priest didnt see that as a problem but is encouraging us to take part in the mass, and this situation will continue now one more year.

My knowledge about the catholic faith and christianity as a whole is better than the average christian and many born catholics, and if the church should have accepted i would have been baptised long ago, but its not in my hands.

Therefore i refuse to be seen as a second class citizen of the church because it is not in my hands, it already passed more than a year and another year will pass and i am content with it.

I know my faith, the Lord knows my faith, i expressed my desire for baptism and my knowledge about the faith, its doctrines and dogmas is far more better than my wifes and her familys. That doesnt mean they are bad catholics, on the contrary, her fathers attend mass every week and are fulfilling their obligations.

But knowledge of the scripture and church history and canonlaw i know far better than them.

In spite of this i must wait another year for fulfilling my faith and i have come to regard this as a good part and a opportunity to learn more and are already living as i should as catholic.

So i can not imagine im less worth or that im different just because im not allowed to partake in the communion or that the lord doesnt love me because of being unbaptized.

No of course its not like that, im just taking it to the extremes to show a example, but the fact is and i am sure that longer preparation will show more fruitful in the end and it will be easier for people to have a good understanding about their faith.

 

[puzzleannie]

It takes as long as it takes, and people are individuals, there is no lock-step “program” that is going to suite everyone. That is why the challenge for those “doing” RCIA is more discernment, and why there is such an emphasis on the sharing, talking, discussion part of the process, to the detriment sometimes of the classroom, catechetical, learning part. If I just teach the class every week, no matter how well I present the material, if I or some member of my team (hopefully the pastor or his delegate) does not talk to the individual candidates we will get no sense of their doubts, fears, issues, where they need more help, what is blocking their progress etc.

the point of year-round RCIA should be that when somebody comes to the office or calls in, they are welcomed immediately, they have someone to talk to, they start attending informal inquiry sessions, or some type of regular meeting right away. Nobody should be told “we just started a new class last month, you will have to come back next year”. that is hardly what we could call evangelization.

 

[anjoh66]

It takes as long as it takes, and people are individuals, there is no lock-step “program” that is going to suite everyone. That is why the challenge for those “doing” RCIA is more discernment, and why there is such an emphasis on the sharing, talking, discussion part of the process, to the detriment sometimes of the classroom, catechetical, learning part. If I just teach the class every week, no matter how well I present the material, if I or some member of my team (hopefully the pastor or his delegate) does not talk to the individual candidates we will get no sense of their doubts, fears, issues, where they need more help, what is blocking their progress etc.

the point of year-round RCIA should be that when somebody comes to the office or calls in, they are welcomed immediately, they have someone to talk to, they start attending informal inquiry sessions, or some type of regular meeting right away. Nobody should be told “we just started a new class last month, you will have to come back next year”. that is hardly what we could call evangelization.

I agree fully, to turn someone back at the door and ask them to come back next year is never the way the Lord would do it and also not a way approved by Him.

Unfortunatelly some parishes are doing that way and it is up to the church to teach them the right way.

In my opinion the person who joins RCIA should have reached the point that there is no doubt that s/he accept that the catholic church is the only true way and are willing to submit fully to the canon laws of the church.

When someone is welcomed as a catechumen/candidate they are expressing that willingness so all those points must have been clarified during the inquiry stage.

That is why our bishop issued the decree of longer catechesis and it must not be too quick.
He should know what he is talking about as he himself is a convert who was recieved into the church in 1979 and as such is speaking out of experience.

 

[mary1173]

I am speaking out of experience.

I myself is not initiated catholic, i have been accepted as a catechumen by the church and will myself be in RCIA classes from september this year.

I have spent more than one year in inquiry stage and from the beginning i was not content with it, but as time passed by i came to accept the whole idea and it pushed me to search deeper why we are spending so long time and why it is so difficult to join the church.
It convinced me that it is the best path to walk.

I come from a pentecostal family who was very deeply in to their denomination and they dont accept baptism of children so i was never baptized but was brought up with the scripture and has been partaking in church since i was small.

However i never took the step for baptism as adult, it is just now many years later that i came to think about it.

I am married to a catholic woman civil as i got a previous marriage with a non baptised person that ended up long ago, because of this she also is apart from the eucharist until it is solved.
The diocese has accepted the applyment of the pauline privilege on my behalf but it cant be applied until i get baptised and till then she must be apart from communion, our parish priest didnt see that as a problem but is encouraging us to take part in the mass, and this situation will continue now one more year.

My knowledge about the catholic faith and christianity as a whole is better than the average christian and many born catholics, and if the church should have accepted i would have been baptised long ago, but its not in my hands.

Therefore i refuse to be seen as a second class citizen of the church because it is not in my hands, it already passed more than a year and another year will pass and i am content with it.

I know my faith, the Lord knows my faith, i expressed my desire for baptism and my knowledge about the faith, its doctrines and dogmas is far more better than my wifes and her familys. That doesnt mean they are bad catholics, on the contrary, her fathers attend mass every week and are fulfilling their obligations.

But knowledge of the scripture and church history and canonlaw i know far better than them.

In spite of this i must wait another year for fulfilling my faith and i have come to regard this as a good part and a opportunity to learn more and are already living as i should as catholic.

So i can not imagine im less worth or that im different just because im not allowed to partake in the communion or that the lord doesnt love me because of being unbaptized.

No of course its not like that, im just taking it to the extremes to show a example, but the fact is and i am sure that longer preparation will show more fruitful in the end and it will be easier for people to have a good understanding about their faith.

Whooa…everybody cool off here! Don’t let them drive you to anger. It isn’t worth it…really it isn’t You are as good a person as anyone to receive God’s blessings in the pursuit of becoming Catholic. You’re a good person don’t let this bother you. When you are baptized you receive Christ’s spirit and it is replacing your stain of original sin. You realize this part,right? , and until your spirit is born anew in Christ’s words your place would be in Limbo if you died before baptism. God loves us ALL…baptized or not. God wants us to teach His words, share His love of one another with each other, and to understand that He is in control and that He makes the final judgement as to who shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven…not man. God decides this
God Bless you, hang in there:thumbsup: