Yearning for God whilst in Hell

[vera_dicere]

There’s quite a few topics here on Hell, but I don’t think I’ve seen one with this question.

We can’t say for sure who’s going to hell, or even if there are people are there. Yet, let’s operate under the premise under Catholic teaching. Mortal sin can damn the soul.

But say a person, a Catholic, goes to Mass, loves God tries to do his will, yet uses the IUD. They refuse the teaching of God on this matter.

They die, they go to Hell for being unrepetant of contracepting.

In Hell, are they aware of their of contracepting being the reason they are in Heaven? Do they yearn for God? Does that add to their pain?

We yearn for God in this life, but we have hope of being with him. In Hell there is no hope, but does that yearning come with knowledge they’ll never be with God?

Would that strong yearning to be with God, trying to do what he wants in this life, would that count for somethign when someone stands before God in judgement with the sin of contraception?

And when I say they reject the teaching, its not an ignorance, its a geniune, “I know what the Church teaches, I knwo that the Church teaches what God tells us, but I decide to refuse that”.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I’m one of those who think the contraceptive pill was God’s gift given to the human race just as the population pressures were becoming a real problem in some parts of the world. The IUD is obviously a different method, but the ethical principle is the same.

A committtee was set up by John XXIII and enlarged by Paul VI. Tt recommended usage of the pill for married couples, and it was largely developed by Catholic researchers, if my understanding is correct. Yet Pope Paul VI overruled and banned it.

The following is a graph of population growth in a historical context. You can see it’s almost vertical in our era. Yet right in the middel of that vertical upswing comes the contraceptive pill. Coincidence?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileopulation_curve.svg

From Wikipedia also -

The world population is the sum total of all humans on Earth. As of today, it is estimated to number 7.014 billion by the United States Census Bureau (USCB).[1] The USCB estimates that the world population exceeded 7 billion on March 12, 2012.[2] According to a separate estimate by the United Nations Population Fund, it reached this milestone on October 31, 2011.[3][4][5]

If this is correct, the population of the world was 7 billion on the 31st March. From a blog, so I’m not sure how accurate it is, but “somewhere around 250,000 babies are born daily, and about According to the World Health Organization, some 56 Million deaths occur per year, at the current global average. That works out to about 153,400 (deaths) per day, or a little more than 100 per minute. For every death, there are a little over 2.25 births, or a something just over 350,000 per day.”

If that’s correct, the population increases by 200,000 per day. It’s all very well quoting the church fathers, but they didn’t have this problem. It’s our problem - not theirs. In their time, the entire population of the world was about 200 to 300million. We increase by that number every three or four years.

Wikipedia again -

Many Western Catholics have voiced significant disagreement with the Church’s stance on contraception.[9] Many Catholics use contraceptives other than those approved by the church. Studies have found 98% of Catholics women in the United States use contraceptive methods other than those officially sanctioned by the church.[10]

If that’s correct, and it’s a mortal sin, then 98% of US Catholic women are on their way to hell. For using contraception? I don’t think so.

The promise Christ made to Peter was -

Matthew 16:19 NIV

“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

The term “loose” implies the church can change previously binding rulings. And frankly, I think the church is going to be forced to change it’s ruling, and realise it’s made a mistake, by virtue of the simple pressure of population pressure.

As for people going to hell, I have no problem with that. I had the peculiar experience of my own father appearing in my room the night he died. He started with an apology, we argued and conversed, and at the end he gave this absolutely terrifying scream and disappeared. As far as I’m concerned he’s in hell.

But during the conversation, he made one comment when I asked him “…then what is important?!”

His reply was “How you treat people”. Simple as that.

Or as Christ put it -

Matthew 25:40 NIV -

"The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

That’s what’s important.

 

[Sair]

There’s quite a few topics here on Hell, but I don’t think I’ve seen one with this question.

We can’t say for sure who’s going to hell, or even if there are people are there. Yet, let’s operate under the premise under Catholic teaching. Mortal sin can damn the soul.

But say a person, a Catholic, goes to Mass, loves God tries to do his will, yet uses the IUD. They refuse the teaching of God on this matter.

They die, they go to Hell for being unrepetant of contracepting.

In Hell, are they aware of their of contracepting being the reason they are in Heaven? Do they yearn for God? Does that add to their pain?

We yearn for God in this life, but we have hope of being with him. In Hell there is no hope, but does that yearning come with knowledge they’ll never be with God?

Would that strong yearning to be with God, trying to do what he wants in this life, would that count for somethign when someone stands before God in judgement with the sin of contraception?

And when I say they reject the teaching, its not an ignorance, its a geniune, “I know what the Church teaches, I knwo that the Church teaches what God tells us, but I decide to refuse that”.

That depends upon whether you take the view of contraception that allows for practical consideration of the consequences of bringing another human being into the world, or whether you take the “transmission of human life trumps all other considerations” view implied by the Catholic teaching on the matter. Personally, I do think the above would constitute an entirely unjust condemnation for the person who yearns for heaven but cannot countenance the unrealistic demands required to get there; but I am hardly qualified to comment, being as I don’t believe in hell, heaven, or the Christian God, for that matter. On the other hand, I do feel that it is possible to use contraception in an ‘unselfish’ manner - and that alone, I believe, sets me in opposition to the Catholic catechism…

 

[Theresa_Frances]

My understanding is that having lost the opportunity for redemption and eternal happiness in Heaven is the most signifigant part of losing salvation.

 

[Seira]

I had the peculiar experience of my own father appearing in my room the night he died. He started with an apology, we argued and conversed, and at the end he gave this absolutely terrifying scream and disappeared. As far as I’m concerned he’s in hell.

That sounds horrible. Are you sure this was really your father or a demon trying to trick you?

 

[Ubenedictus]

I’m one of those who think the contraceptive pill was God’s gift given to the human race just as the population pressures were becoming a real problem in some parts of the world. The IUD is obviously a different method, but the ethical principle is the same.

A committtee was set up by John XXIII and enlarged by Paul VI. Tt recommended usage of the pill for married couples, and it was largely developed by Catholic researchers, if my understanding is correct. Yet Pope Paul VI overruled and banned it.

The following is a graph of population growth in a historical context. You can see it’s almost vertical in our era. Yet right in the middel of that vertical upswing comes the contraceptive pill. Coincidence?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileopulation_curve.svg

From Wikipedia also -

If this is correct, the population of the world was 7 billion on the 31st March. From a blog, so I’m not sure how accurate it is, but “somewhere around 250,000 babies are born daily, and about According to the World Health Organization, some 56 Million deaths occur per year, at the current global average. That works out to about 153,400 (deaths) per day, or a little more than 100 per minute. For every death, there are a little over 2.25 births, or a something just over 350,000 per day.”

If that’s correct, the population increases by 200,000 per day. It’s all very well quoting the church fathers, but they didn’t have this problem. It’s our problem - not theirs. In their time, the entire population of the world was about 200 to 300million. We increase by that number every three or four years.

Wikipedia again -

If that’s correct, and it’s a mortal sin, then 98% of US Catholic women are on their way to hell. For using contraception? I don’t think so.

The promise Christ made to Peter was -

Matthew 16:19 NIV

The term “loose” implies the church can change previously binding rulings. And frankly, I think the church is going to be forced to change it’s ruling, and realise it’s made a mistake, by virtue of the simple pressure of population pressure.

this is not true to ‘loose’ does not imply to change already afirmed morals.
Im sure some one would be interested in telling how flawed you arguement is. The truth does not change due to population pressure, it simply remains true. And d bible verse you quote does not support your idea even if i could prove that 99% of catholic boy masturbate that is not a reason for a new moral. I really think you need some serious reseach in catholic teaching because your arguement is not catholic at all.
Ubenedictus

 

[Bible_is_truth]

That sounds horrible. Are you sure this was really your father or a demon trying to trick you?

See 1 John 4 v 1-3
About testing the spirits…

 

[Uriah_Betrayed]

Do they yearn for God? Does that add to their pain?

From what I’ve gathered, that yearning and regret is the main source of pain while in Hell. The realization that “Ya blew it” and can never make amends after a lifetime of empty faith.

 

[JDaniel]

I’m one of those who think the contraceptive pill was God’s gift given to the human race just as the population pressures were becoming a real problem in some parts of the world. The IUD is obviously a different method, but the ethical principle is the same.

A committtee was set up by John XXIII and enlarged by Paul VI. Tt recommended usage of the pill for married couples, and it was largely developed by Catholic researchers, if my understanding is correct. Yet Pope Paul VI overruled and banned it.

The following is a graph of population growth in a historical context. You can see it’s almost vertical in our era. Yet right in the middel of that vertical upswing comes the contraceptive pill. Coincidence?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileopulation_curve.svg

From Wikipedia also -

If this is correct, the population of the world was 7 billion on the 31st March. From a blog, so I’m not sure how accurate it is, but “somewhere around 250,000 babies are born daily, and about According to the World Health Organization, some 56 Million deaths occur per year, at the current global average. That works out to about 153,400 (deaths) per day, or a little more than 100 per minute. For every death, there are a little over 2.25 births, or a something just over 350,000 per day.”

If that’s correct, the population increases by 200,000 per day. It’s all very well quoting the church fathers, but they didn’t have this problem. It’s our problem - not theirs. In their time, the entire population of the world was about 200 to 300million. We increase by that number every three or four years.

Wikipedia again -

If that’s correct, and it’s a mortal sin, then 98% of US Catholic women are on their way to hell. For using contraception? I don’t think so.

The promise Christ made to Peter was -

Matthew 16:19 NIV

The term “loose” implies the church can change previously binding rulings. And frankly, I think the church is going to be forced to change it’s ruling, and realise it’s made a mistake, by virtue of the simple pressure of population pressure.

As for people going to hell, I have no problem with that. I had the peculiar experience of my own father appearing in my room the night he died. He started with an apology, we argued and conversed, and at the end he gave this absolutely terrifying scream and disappeared. As far as I’m concerned he’s in hell.

But during the conversation, he made one comment when I asked him “…then what is important?!”

His reply was “How you treat people”. Simple as that.

Or as Christ put it -

Matthew 25:40 NIV -

That’s what’s important.

Bob:

Whew! I don’t know where to begin. According to population the world population is growning at 80 million, births over deaths, each year. But, as the video implies, the contries where population control of some sort may be needed are NOT the industrialized ones. It is the underdeveloped and third-world countries that are supplying the increase of world population. But, it is the industrialized countries that are thwarting and killing their babies - the very people that have the best chance of making a difference.

Scientists estimate that the world can successfully sustain 40 billion people, more of less. That means, we’ve got about 30 more years.Contraception (and abortions) may have already killed the person/people that could have made a difference. Either smart people will find an alternative, or, we’re in the end-times. Contraception will not help that a bit.

BTW, your theory is not Catholic.

Anyway, we’ve gotten off topic.

God bless,
jd

 

[Bob_Crowley]

That sounds horrible. Are you sure this was really your father or a demon trying to trick you?

I’m pretty sure it was him. For example, he made some specific predictions, one of which was “You’ll meet a pastor. You’ll think he’s great, but all he’ll do is discourage you even more!”

My father died in January 1979. I met the pastor nearly four years later, around October 1982, when I became a Christian. I was an atheist when my father died.

Sometime in 1991, the pastor apologised to me with the words, “I owe you an apology… You needed encouragement, but all I’ve done is to discourage you even more!” Now I’d told him of my father’s apparition previously, but when I pointed out he’d just quoted back my father’s prediction about him almost word for word, he was shaken, and blurted out, “You really did see your father that night!”

Incidentally I learnt a lot from that pastor, and I still think he was “great”, discouragement notwithstanding.

What’s significant about that? Well, if Fr. Serpa is correct, and he’s an exorcist, the devil, and therefore demons, don’t know the future. The only way my father could therefore have made a prediction like was to be shown by divine agency.

I’m pretty sure it was him. And he had a few things to apologise for. He’d spent pretty much my whole life up to that point deliberately destroying my confidence, as he admitted the night he died, and appeared in my room.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Bob:

Whew! I don’t know where to begin. According to population the world population is growning at 80 million, births over deaths, each year. But, as the video implies, the contries where population control of some sort may be needed are NOT the industrialized ones. It is the underdeveloped and third-world countries that are supplying the increase of world population. But, it is the industrialized countries that are thwarting and killing their babies - the very people that have the best chance of making a difference.

Scientists estimate that the world can successfully sustain 40 billion people, more of less. That means, we’ve got about 30 more years.Contraception (and abortions) may have already killed the person/people that could have made a difference. Either smart people will find an alternative, or, we’re in the end-times. Contraception will not help that a bit.

BTW, your theory is not Catholic.

Anyway, we’ve gotten off topic.

God bless,
jd

Bit of an error there - we’ve got more than 30 years before we hit 40 billion, and oddly enough I did have a brief vision once where “someone” said the earth was designed to cater for about 40 billion people, IF we share the resources.

I agree abortion is murder, and will be judged as such by the Almighty. However if the industrialised countries weren’t practising birth control, the birth rate and population growth would be even greater than it is now.

 

[exoflare]

And frankly, I think the church is going to be forced to change it’s ruling, and realise it’s made a mistake, by virtue of the simple pressure of population pressure.

I was just wondering how soon you think this is going to happen. Obviously I don’t agree that it will ever happen and it won’t, but I was still curious to know what exactly you were expecting.

 

[exoflare]

So I kinda realized most of the discussion in here so far doesn’t even directly pertain to the OP’s question in the first place. Getting back on topic…

Would that strong yearning to be with God, trying to do what he wants in this life, would that count for somethign when someone stands before God in judgement with the sin of contraception?

And when I say they reject the teaching, its not an ignorance, its a geniune, "I know what the Church teaches, I knwo that the Church teaches what God tells us, but I decide to refuse that".

Did you really not see the total contradiction here? It’s either one or the other, but it can’t be both.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I was just wondering how soon you think this is going to happen. Obviously I don’t agree that it will ever happen and it won’t, but I was still curious to know what exactly you were expecting.

I don’t know how long it will take, but eventually I think it will happen. A lot of European countries even now don’t grow enough food to feed themselves.

From this link, which I suspect is strongly pro-population control, but still …

unfpa.org/6billion/populationissues/development.htm

For the past 50 years, food production has kept ahead of rising demand. Today, in a world where two-thirds of the people depend on rice, wheat and/or maize as their staple food, 80 countries cannot produce enough food to feed their own populations from existing land and water resources.

Secondly one of my personal crank theories is that God intends to drive us off the planet, by two means - one will be our own stupidity and violence, and to quote my old pastor, “I think He’s doing something to the sun” (no evidence yet, mind, but it’s just that I found he was so accurate).

If He does, emigrants from earth are going to have to live in very austere circumstances (at least in the beginning). There simply will not be the means for unlimited population growth. Any attempt by the church then to ban artificial contraception will be laughed out of court.

 

[JDaniel]

Bit of an error there - we’ve got more than 30 years before we hit 40 billion, and oddly enough I did have a brief vision once where “someone” said the earth was designed to cater for about 40 billion people, IF we share the resources.

I agree abortion is murder, and will be judged as such by the Almighty. However if the industrialised countries weren’t practising birth control, the birth rate and population growth would be even greater than it is now.

Bob:

I was extrapolating from the current population to reach 40 billion, assuming that the 80 million would be progressively coming along (in about 16 years) and producing ever more babies. (I did not work out a mathematical formula for it though - just a rough guess.) Further, assuming that half of the current world population consists essentially of children, they, too, will be coming along and adding babies to the population at an incremental rate. OK, so maybe it’s 35 - 40 years.

If we are stuck on living on this rock for as long as possible, then we must have the potentiality to generate that person who might help us do that. There’s less a chance of that happening out of underdeveloped and third-world nations, than out of industrialized nations. Would you agree with that?

God bless,
jd

 

[exoflare]

Secondly one of my personal crank theories is that God intends to drive us off the planet, by two means - one will be our own stupidity and violence, and to quote my old pastor, “I think He’s doing something to the sun” (no evidence yet, mind, but it’s just that I found he was so accurate).

Do you have any idea how soon you think that will happen?

If He does, emigrants from earth are going to have to live in very austere circumstances (at least in the beginning). There simply will not be the means for unlimited population growth. Any attempt by the church then to ban artificial contraception will be laughed out of court.

The Church most likely won’t have the power to “ban” people from anything, any more than they do now. However artificial contraception will remain immoral just as it always has and the Church won’t suddenly have the luxury of pretending it’s not, regardless of how many people choose to laugh.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

But say a person, a Catholic, goes to Mass, loves God tries to do his will, yet uses the IUD. They refuse the teaching of God on this matter.

Exactly what do you mean by “they refuse the teaching on this matter?”
Sin is not just an external act of disobedience to an external, arbitrary rule - which is what you seem to be saying here. You need to provide detail such as the reason why and under what circumstances/pressures? Obviously if someone loves God like you say then they must surely have an extremely good reason to do such a contrary thing.

BTW God never actually came out and “said” that contraception was wrong as far as I know. That comes from his Church.

They die, they go to Hell for being unrepetant of contracepting.
Do they yearn for God? Does that add to their pain?

No they don’t yearn for God, they yearn for god with a little “g” (i.e. a distorted God made in their own image and likeness.) This is where their pain comes from, they cannot give up their lollipop god who has apparantly put them in hell. They are thus only really yearning for themselves and cannot breakthrough this delusion because of their stoney untrusting hearts. God would love to help them but they won’t let him be God, they think God has to act the way they think god should act. Complete faith requires trust, a walk in the dark, a willingness to follow the real God even when it sometimes doesn’t make sense. Only fiction has to make sense - Truth doesn’t.

We yearn for God in this life, but we have hope of being with him. In Hell there is no hope, but does that yearning come with knowledge they’ll never be with God?

As above. In this life we earn our salvation in fear and trembling knowing that we could be misled by our feelings. The signs and safeguards that we are on the straight and narrow path to God are the usual suspects: namely the desire to follow His teachings as best we understand them (we may fail regularly) and, over time, increasing manifestation of virtuous activity (at least interior acts, but this should normally overflow into exterior acts as well).

Would that strong yearning to be with God, trying to do what he wants in this life, would that count for somethign when someone stands before God in judgement with the sin of contraception?

Younger minds often compare getting to heaven with a bank balance at the end of the year. If there are more deposits than withdrawals then waheeee! That is too immature a way to see things when we are adults. “Yearning” is a feeling, feelings may be mistaken. Feeling don’t save you. They may be indicators of something deeper but who knows if what is deeper is noble or a lazy self-pity? “By their fruits ye shall know them” is the bottom line. See above re manifestation of virtuous behaviour.

And when I say they reject the teaching, its not an ignorance, its a geniune, “I know what the Church teaches, I knwo that the Church teaches what God tells us, but I decide to refuse that”.

You really need to explain more as above.

 

[Ubenedictus]

I’m pretty sure it was him. For example, he made some specific predictions, one of which was “You’ll meet a pastor. You’ll think he’s great, but all he’ll do is discourage you even more!”

My father died in January 1979. I met the pastor nearly four years later, around October 1982, when I became a Christian. I was an atheist when my father died.

Sometime in 1991, the pastor apologised to me with the words, “I owe you an apology… You needed encouragement, but all I’ve done is to discourage you even more!” Now I’d told him of my father’s apparition previously, but when I pointed out he’d just quoted back my father’s prediction about him almost word for word, he was shaken, and blurted out, “You really did see your father that night!”

Incidentally I learnt a lot from that pastor, and I still think he was “great”, discouragement notwithstanding.

What’s significant about that? Well, if Fr. Serpa is correct, and he’s an exorcist, the devil, and therefore demons, don’t know the future. The only way my father could therefore have made a prediction like was to be shown by divine agency.

I’m pretty sure it was him. And he had a few things to apologise for. He’d spent pretty much my whole life up to that point deliberately destroying my confidence, as he admitted the night he died, and appeared in my room.

yeah they dont know the future, but their ‘angelic’ minds understand the principle of cause and effect better than the human mind. They could have a clue but that is not some infalliable knowledge.
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

Bob:

Whew! I don’t know where to begin. According to population the world population is growning at 80 million, births over deaths, each year. But, as the video implies, the contries where population control of some sort may be needed are NOT the industrialized ones. It is the underdeveloped and third-world countries that are supplying the increase of world population. But, it is the industrialized countries that are thwarting and killing their babies - the very people that have the best chance of making a difference.

Scientists estimate that the world can successfully sustain 40 billion people, more of less. That means, we’ve got about 30 more years.Contraception (and abortions) may have already killed the person/people that could have made a difference. Either smart people will find an alternative, or, we’re in the end-times. Contraception will not help that a bit.

BTW, your theory is not Catholic.

Anyway, we’ve gotten off topic.

God bless,
jd

im sensing a little racism, you dont think the underdeveloped countries can produce the guy who can make a difference, no?
Ubenedictus

 

[Ubenedictus]

Bit of an error there - we’ve got more than 30 years before we hit 40 billion, and oddly enough I did have a brief vision once where “someone” said the earth was designed to cater for about 40 billion people, IF we share the resources.

I agree abortion is murder, and will be judged as such by the Almighty. However if the industrialised countries weren’t practising birth control, the birth rate and population growth would be even greater than it is now.

i think you are trying to do God’s work, let him do his work and let him sustain what he created. We run into trouble when we play God.
Ubenedictus