Yes, Enoch and Elijah went to heaven [Akin]

  • Thread starter Thread starter Catholic_Opinion
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
OK so here’s another article from Jimmy Akins to give context from above. Another important verse I overlooked above.
In Luke 9:27, at the end of a speech to the twelve apostles, Jesus adds, enigmatically:
“There are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”
This has often been taken as a prophecy that the end of the world would occur before the first generation of Christians died out.
The phrase “kingdom of God” can also refer to other things, though, including the Church–the outward expression of God’s invisible kingdom.
The kingdom is embodied in Christ himself and thus might be “seen” if Christ were to manifest it in an unusual way, even in his own earthly life.l
ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/10-things-you-need-to-know-about-jesus-transfiguration
Pope Benedict states that it has been . . .
. . . convincingly argued that the placing of this saying immediately before the Transfiguration clearly relates it to this event.
Some—that is to say, the three disciples who accompany Jesus up the mountain—are promised that they will personally witness the coming of the Kingdom of God ‘in power.’
On the mountain the three of them see the glory of God’s Kingdom shining out of Jesus. On the mountain they are overshadowed by God’s holy cloud. On the mountain—in the conversation of the transfigured Jesus with the Law and the Prophets—they realize that the true Feast of Tabernacles has come. On the mountain they learn that Jesus himself is the living Torah, the complete Word of God. On the mountain they see the ‘power’ (dynamis) of the Kingdom that is coming in Christ" (Jesus of Nazareth, vol. 1, p. 317).
I guess I can add 1-Peter to the above thinking. 🙂
 
jimmyakin.com/wp-content/uploads/elijah-300x197.jpgMany Catholics are aware that Jesus “opened the gates of heaven” and allowed the righteous dead to go there.

The Catechism even says it:

CCC 637 In his human soul united to his divine person, the dead Christ went down to the realm of the dead. He opened heaven’s gates for the just who had gone before him.

This leads to a question that comes up periodically: What about figures like Enoch and Elijah, who seem to have been assumed into heaven prior to the time of Christ?

The obvious answer, I’ve always held, is that they were exceptions. As a general rule, heaven was not open to those who lived before the time of Christ, but God is omnipotent, and he can make exceptions if he chooses.

Some of the people I’ve discussed this with seem to struggle with it, and I haven’t understood the source of their difficulty.

God can clearly give the blessings of the Christian age to someone prior to the time of Christ, on the basis of what Christ did. After all, that’s why the Virgin Mary was immaculately conceived. The Catechism explains:

CCC 492 The “splendor of an entirely unique holiness” by which Mary is “enriched from the first instant of her conception” comes wholly from Christ: She is “redeemed, in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son.”

CCC 508 From among the descendants of Eve, God chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of his Son. “Full of grace”, Mary is “the most excellent fruit of redemption” (SC 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life.

If God could apply the redemption Christ wrought to Mary before his death and resurrection, then he could similarly apply its fruits to others as well—at least on an exceptional basis.

And the way that Enoch and Elijah’s lives concluded was clearly exceptional.

In Enoch’s case, Genesis 5:24 says that God “took” him, but doesn’t say where. Sirach 44:16 and 49:14 make it clear that he was taken up from the earth, and Hebrews 11:5 adds “so that he should not see death.”

In Elijah’s case, 2 Kings 2:11 states that “Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” First Maccabees 2:58 adds, “Elijah because of great zeal for the Law was taken up into heaven.”

Both 2 Kings and 1 Maccabees both use the ordinary Hebrew and Greek words for “heaven” (shamayim and ouranos, respectively)—indicating that heaven was where they went.

Recently I was rereading St. John Paul II’s general audience on heaven and noticed that he also acknowledged this:

The depiction of heaven as the transcendent dwelling-place of the living God is joined with that of the place to which believers, through grace, can also ascend, as we see in the Old Testament accounts of Enoch (cf. Gn 5:24) and Elijah (cf. 2 Kgs 2:11) [General Audience, July 21, 1999].

It thus seems that John Paul II—who is now himself in heaven—acknowledged the exceptional nature of Enoch and Elijah’s admission to that blessed realm.

feeds.feedburner.com/~ff/jimmyakin/HPRf?d=yIl2AUoC8zA
http://forums.catholic-questions.org//feeds.feedburner.com/~r/jimmyakin/HPRf/~4/mVxsSMjyXCQ

More…
How could they possibly be in heaven if they hadn’t been glorified? Their human, mortal bodies are just floating around somewhere?
 
Although I can’t open the link or find out where to get it, from what I have read so far people are expressing an opinion only and not a Church teaching.
It is clear that the death and resurrection of Christ opened the gates of Heaven. They were closed to everyone prior to that. I do not believe Elijah and Enoch were taken to Heaven. I believe they were in the Limbo of the Fathers.
What/where is Limbo of the Fathers?
 
How could they possibly be in heaven if they hadn’t been glorified? Their human, mortal bodies are just floating around somewhere?
That is precisely my question 🙂 And that they are floating somewhere is an opinion some have.

That is the problem: If they went to heaven (THE heaven or just paradise), they must have received glorified bodies. even if they are in Eden, which was a real place, but is nowhere to be found now, well they would need to have such a body which permits to live there, since it is no more " on earth" so to speak, because it is on another level, I think, because of sin. We could say it is like having angels around us and not being able to see or feel them. Eden being on earth, this would be a possibility for its existence right now.

But then again, if they have such bodies, which are immortal, how will they die? So it seems they do not have them. So are they in heaven/paradise?

There is this opinion I just read:

"I’m guessing that you’re assuming that Enoch and Elijah will be the two witnesses mentioned in Revelation 11. This interpretation may (or may not) be correct. The two witnesses are never named, and there is no way to know whether these two individuals are Enoch and Elijah or not. They may be two entirely different people, who come in the spirit and power of Enoch and Elijah, say, without actually being those two men. This would be similar to the ministry of John the Baptist, who came in the spirit and power of Elijah (see Luke 1:17). "
probe.org/how-can-elijah-and-enoch-be-killed-in-glorified-bodies/

The problem here is that Scripture seem to indicate that they will come in person, and if it is Enoch and Elijah, then those two will come personally and not like the Elijah/John the Baptist :D.

Finally, it may just seem that Scripture says they will come personally (bodily). The jews thought Elijah would ome, and Jesus said of the Baptist: “Well, there you have it. It is John”.
 
What/where is Limbo of the Fathers?
The limbo of the Fathers was the “place” in heaven (sheol) where the righteous would go after they died. So before Christ came, there was the limbo of the Fathers, which was like the better part of sheol, if you like, and the rest of them would be in the sheol but not in the “bosom of Abraham”, or precisely the limbo of the Fathers.

You may use the analogy of Purgatory, though what happens there is different. You could see the limbo of the Fathers as the waiting room before entering Heaven, before Christ comes and opens the Gates, whereas Purgatory has a cleansing quality added to this idea of “waiting room”, but is ultimately there so that the righteous can enter Heaven in a state of total purity.
 
Oh ok, so for the author of the link in th previous post, Enoch died. It is not held by many, and I had read the opposite opinion, with some reproof to those who think these figures died…here: ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=368490

so, case not closed :).

Also, whether Enoch or/and Elijah died doesn’t change much to the fact that they may have entered heaven anyway.

Surely, Joe Kovacs should explain why Paul says that Enoch didn’t taste death…did he mean only spiritual death, hell? I would doubt this. But I can’t know.
 
[ http://www.catholic.com/blog/jimmy-akin/yes-enoch-and-elijah-went-to-heaven](http:// http://www.catholic.com/blog/jimmy-akin/yes-enoch-and-elijah-went-to-heaven)

I apologize if this is already elsewhere in the forums. I did look around a little and didn’t see it.

So, some people believe that no one went to heaven before Yeshua came and opened the gates. However, I agree with Jimmy Akin here that Enoch and Elijah are clear exceptions. What are your thoughts on this one? What about Moses, given some midrashic beliefs along with Jude 9, which suggest that he even died and was resurrected?

In addition, what about the numerous psalms which suggest that Sheol wasn’t the only option for Hebrews after they die? Do you think that David, the author of many of those psalms, or any others went to heaven or to somewhere better than Sheol? I know about the belief about Yeshua descending into Sheol to redeem the saints, which belief I share, so it was probably rare for someone to go elsewhere. Very interested in your thoughts on these things.
Is Sheol another name for purgatory?
Or the same concept at least?
That may explain why some went there and Encoh/Elijah was/is in heaven.

____ And Time is no limit for God with “taking” people straight there…
 
Oh ok, so for the author of the link in th previous post, Enoch died. It is not held by many, and I had read the opposite opinion, with some reproof to those who think these figures died…here: ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?number=368490

so, case not closed :).

Also, whether Enoch or/and Elijah died doesn’t change much to the fact that they may have entered heaven anyway.

Surely, Joe Kovacs should explain why Paul says that Enoch didn’t taste death…did he mean only spiritual death, hell? I would doubt this. But I can’t know.
My only problem with them going to heaven is how their mortal bodies could be there. We’re they glorified though they hadn’t died or what?

I asked one of my priests about what happened to E and E and he said he doesn’t know. :rolleyes:
 
My only problem with them going to heaven is how their mortal bodies could be there. We’re they glorified though they hadn’t died or what?

I asked one of my priests about what happened to E and E and he said he doesn’t know. :rolleyes:
Transfiguration. 👍
 
Is Sheol another name for purgatory?
Or the same concept at least?
That may explain why some went there and Encoh/Elijah was/is in heaven.

____ And Time is no limit for God with “taking” people straight there…
Sheol is the Hebrew realm of the dead, where the dead sleep. It is where Jesus went to redeem the saints from before his time, such as the prophets, and it is actually what we mean when we say that he “descended into Hell.” Jesus uses three terms which are translated as “Hell”: Sheol, the realm of the dead; gehenna, a trash heap where human sacrifice used to take place; and Hades, the Greek realm of the dead which has both a very bad part (tartarus) and a very good part (The Elysium fields, which I probably misspelled.)

The story of Elijah has him ascending into heaven instead of going into Sheol. Sheol is where most people went. In addition there are verses and traditions which support Enoch and Moses also not going to Sheol. Then there are the psalms wherein David implies that there is another option than Sheol. Modern Jews are diverse in their beliefs regarding Sheol and death in general.
 
I talked to my pastor about this once (different priest) and he agreed, saying the OSV is an orthodox teaching publication.

Still another priest I’d talked to about this some time ago, agreed with Fr. Ryland’s answer, too. (The priest who answered the question in the OSV).
 
Yes, but I don’t see the logic in thinking that people who already are in heaven (then they must have glorified bodies) are to die and be martyred.
I am not sure what you are saying. Nobody said anything about dying or being martyred. There was a distinction made between the eternal heaven for the glorified spiritual bodies redeemed by Christ, and the paradise where Enoch and Elijah went.
 
I am not sure what you are saying. Nobody said anything about dying or being martyred. There was a distinction made between the eternal heaven for the glorified spiritual bodies redeemed by Christ, and the paradise where Enoch and Elijah went.
Nobody? Those who think they are the Two witnesses have to thik they will die and be martyred, ad the resurrected, as Revelatio says.

7 When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them
11 But after the three and a half days, the breath** of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and those who saw them were terrified.

I would’t see any problem, if they were i paradise (not Heaven as we understand it, if you like), but the problem is jimmy says “The obvious answer, I’ve always held, is that they were exceptions. As a general rule, heaven was not open to those who lived before the time of Christ, but God is omnipotent, and he can make exceptions if he chooses.”

So I don’t think Jimmy is talking about the Bosom of Abraham. If he was, he wouldn’t have said Enoch and Elijah were exceptions, as going to the Bosom of Abraham or some other heaven was for every righteous person who died before Christ. Then, some say “christian Heaven”. Again, I would be ok with it, if they weren’t to come back. Just, that they are in Heaven and have to come back and die is for me problematic.

So, in my opinion: If they went to heaven (Abraham’s Bosom), I don’t see a problem in them being the Two witnesses, because they could be in Eden, wherever it is now;
or, they are in the eternal Heaven, then they have glorified bodies, and can’t come back to die again.**
 
Is Sheol another name for purgatory?
Or the same concept at least?
That may explain why some went there and Encoh/Elijah was/is in heaven.

____ And Time is no limit for God with “taking” people straight there…
I used the analogy of purgatory as a waiting place leading to paradise, but the analogy stops there. I am sorry if it was confusing, in the case you read my posts.
 
Transfiguration. 👍
Do you call Transfiguration what happened to Enoch and Elijah? But Transfiguration is not becoming a glorified body. If you use transfiguration to talk about the glorification of the bodies, ok, but then would you says they can still be the Two Witnesses?
Thank you 🙂 (and I know it is not really the subject, but since they are in heaven, there is this possibility).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top