Yes, Enoch and Elijah went to heaven [Akin]

[GaryTaylor]

Do you call Transfiguration what happened to Enoch and Elijah?

Yes, I believe so. I think Jimmy connected the dots pretty well. He explains in the link I posted…

Christ, Head of the Church, manifests what his Body contains and radiates in the sacraments: ‘the hope of glory’ [CCC 568]

But Transfiguration is not becoming a glorified body.

Yes, a glorified Jesus Christ [above]. God became man so we can become like god USCCB…

• [17:1–8] The account of the transfiguration confirms that Jesus is the Son of God (Mt 17:5) and points to fulfillment of the prediction that he will come in his Father’s glory at the end of the age

If you use transfiguration to talk about the glorification of the bodies, ok, but then would you says they can still be the Two Witnesses?.

For sure, I can’t see why not. But in all honesty this is a point I have not contemplated much at all. So this point I am interested in.

Thank you (and I know it is not really the subject, but since they are in heaven, there is this possibility).

Oh your welcome, I think its a fascinating topic so different thinking I feel helps expand the understanding.

Peace

 

[MarcoPG]

My remarks are in red, b ecause the multiquote and me don’t go together well …It is not Jesus speaking though

Yes, I believe so. I think Jimmy connected the dots pretty well. He explains in the link I posted…

Oh I see your point. Maybe I should clarify that what I meant is Jesus’ Transfiguration didn’t last, it was a glimpse of what would happen after the resurrection, and then Jesus returned to his human figure (as he went beyond his human figure). But glorification doesn’t leave any choice to return to our previous form, or corruptible human form. Once we are glorified, we stay so. That was my point in differentiate the Transfiuration with their “transfigurations”.

Yes, a glorified Jesus Christ [above]. God became man so we can become like god USCCB…

Well, my previous clarification should clarify this also. I took the transfiguration as that glimpse, not the glorification after life (either after death or assumption).

Quote:

• [17:1–8] The account of the transfiguration confirms that Jesus is the Son of God (Mt 17:5) and points to fulfillment of the prediction that he will come in his Father’s glory at the end of the age

As I say, it points to, it isn’t the fulfillment. That is where I was going .

For sure, I can’t see why not. But in all honesty this is a point I have not contemplated much at all. So this point I am interested in.

Because if they have glorified bodies, they cannot die. But the Two witnesses are said to be killed and be resurrected.

Oh your welcome, I think its a fascinating topic so different thinking I feel helps expand the understanding.

Peace

It is interesting and we won’t see the end, i guess . Peace to you.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It is interesting and we won’t see the end, i guess . Peace to you.

it was a glimpse of what would happen after the resurrection,

Yes, but for God outside of time it was already a reality of the past-present-future, so this leaves us at the in time reality of where E+E are. Btw in this point I am skeptical of Jimmys thinking, but I’m listening with an open mind. How did he arrive at the exception part?

 

[MarcoPG]

Yes, but for God outside of time it was already a reality of the past-present-future, so this leaves us at the in time reality of where E+E are. Btw in this point I am skeptical of Jimmys thinking, but I’m listening with an open mind. How did he arrive at the exception part?

Yes, Jesus could show his glorified body, but if we say Enoch and Elijah experienced transfiguration meaning glorification, it is not momentary like Jesus could chose to have this state to come and go. If a human is transfigured, he is glorified, yes, but they have no power to return to corruptible bodies. Bt Jesus could show his glory even if his human body wasn’t glorified yet.

The exceptions he is talking about is Enoch and Elijah entering Heaven (THE Heaven) before Christ died in time, this by faith, somehow through the merits of Christ, since it cannot be in any other way.

Then, if we agree that Enoch and Elijah are where Jimmythinks they are, the cannot be the Two witnesses, because they wouldn’t be able to die. Sure God could send them with a mortal body again, but…I found this unacceptable with what we know of glorified bodies.

Or, they don’t have glorified bodies, which could be the only possibility if they are the Two witnesses, and then they are not been glorified, though in heaven, like Eden or some other part.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Yes, Jesus could show his glorified body, but if we say Enoch and Elijah experienced transfiguration meaning glorification, it is not momentary like Jesus could chose to have this state to come and go. If a human is transfigured, he is glorified, yes, but they have no power to return to corruptible bodies. Bt Jesus could show his glory even if his human body wasn’t glorified yet.

The exceptions he is talking about is Enoch and Elijah entering Heaven (THE Heaven) before Christ died in time, this by faith, somehow through the merits of Christ, since it cannot be in any other way.

Then, if we agree that Enoch and Elijah are where Jimmythinks they are, the cannot be the Two witnesses, because they wouldn’t be able to die. Sure God could send them with a mortal body again, but…I found this unacceptable with what we know of glorified bodies.

Or, they don’t have glorified bodies, which could be the only possibility if they are the Two witnesses, and then they are not been glorified, though in heaven, like Eden or some other part.

Thats the thing, I’m not sure a glorified body can or can’t return by Gods will. You can think Angels, apparitions and so forth, power of the Holy Spirit.

But I see this point in the complexity of both Fr Ray above and Jimmys thinking. When you read Fr Ray above I agree with all he states till he reaches here…

God had simply removed Elijah to another place, after which, of course, he eventually died.

But when he died he died spirit and body which didn’t remain in time. I don’t know as what state they could have been in outside of time, or better what this state exists of as in being. We can conclude they were not glorified in time till Christ was Crucified but what is this place we are talking about which must exist or not exist?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Yes, but for God outside of time it was already a reality of the past-present-future, so this leaves us at the in time reality of where E+E are. Btw in this point I am skeptical of Jimmys thinking, but I’m listening with an open mind. How did he arrive at the exception part?

I think he makes it pretty clear that based on his reading of the Scripture, an exception is implied. However, this is pure speculation. There are many possible interpretations of these places in Scriptures ranging from they died like everyone else, and were taken to the bosom of Abraham to they never died and were immaculately conceived just like the Virgin Mary. People will, based on their cherished opinions, fall somewhere between the two.

The problem is people are TOO sure they understand the hard places in Scripture, so that it MUST mean such and such. But the prototype for this argument, is the Jews expecting Elijah to return bodily. However, the Archangel Gabriel (to Zachary) and Jesus both claim that John the Baptist is Elijah returned as promised.

What makes it especially hard for us, is that Jesus (and the Holy Spirit through the Scripture writers) have a strong tendency to use Poetic language. It is a wonderful thing, and it appeals to our Imagination, and is retained in our memory. However, we can not ignore or neglect the possibility that in some passages of Scripture, especially those that are most difficult to understand, that there may be an element of God’s Poetic speech at work. The Jews were carnal and literal. They could not imagine a Messiah that would be a suffering servant. One that would triumph on the Cross. They still can’t. So if the Jews, who have a Loooooooooong history of interpreting the hard places of Scripture could be so wrong, how difficult must it be for us modern day speculators?

 

[GaryTaylor]

I think he makes it pretty clear that based on his reading of the Scripture, an exception is implied. However, this is pure speculation. There are many possible interpretations of these places in Scriptures ranging from they died like everyone else, and were taken to the bosom of Abraham to they never died and were immaculately conceived just like the Virgin Mary. People will, based on their cherished opinions, fall somewhere between the two.

The problem is people are TOO sure they understand the hard places in Scripture, so that it MUST mean such and such. But the prototype for this argument, is the Jews expecting Elijah to return bodily. However, the Archangel Gabriel (to Zachary) and Jesus both claim that John the Baptist is Elijah returned as promised.

What makes it especially hard for us, is that Jesus (and the Holy Spirit through the Scripture writers) have a strong tendency to use Poetic language. It is a wonderful thing, and it appeals to our Imagination, and is retained in our memory. However, we can not ignore or neglect the possibility that in some passages of Scripture, especially those that are most difficult to understand, that there may be an element of God’s Poetic speech at work. The Jews were carnal and literal. They could not imagine a Messiah that would be a suffering servant. One that would triumph on the Cross. They still can’t. So if the Jews, who have a Loooooooooong history of interpreting the hard places of Scripture could be so wrong, how difficult must it be for us modern day speculators?

I follow, it would lead to understanding what I suppose is the difficult point here…

For three and a half days some from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial.

And after three days and a half, the spirit of life from God entered into them. And they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon them that saw them.

The complexity is astonishing from this point to think literal.

 

[Faith1960]

Transfiguration.

Are you saying E and E were transfigured before they went to heaven and they aren’t typical, mortal bodies floating around somewhere?

And by transfiguration, do you mean a more beautiful state or spiritual state? ( both are listed online in a definition).

(Edited)

 

[MarcoPG]

Are you saying E and E were transfigured before they went to heaven and they aren’t typical, mortal bodies floating around somewhere?

And by transfiguration, do you mean a more beautiful state or spiritual state? ( both are listed online in a definition).

(Edited)

Gary Taylor answered me on this, you can posts 57 and following

 

[MarcoPG]

Thats the thing, I’m not sure a glorified body can or can’t return by Gods will. You can think Angels, apparitions and so forth, power of the Holy Spirit.

But I see this point in the complexity of both Fr Ray above and Jimmys thinking. When you read Fr Ray above I agree with all he states till he reaches here…

But when he died he died spirit and body which didn’t remain in time. I don’t know as what state they could have been in outside of time, or better what this state exists of as in being. We can conclude they were not glorified in time till Christ was Crucified but what is this place we are talking about which must exist or not exist?

I don’t know either, even if I guess He can. But I don’t know why God would render mortal a glorified body, only for that person to die a martyr.

Fr. Ray seems to connect the event Elijah experienced with the one Philip did. But Unlike Philip in Acts, no one says Elijah was found; Sirach says though that (Sirach 48:12) “When Elijah was enveloped in the whirlwind,
ELISHA was filled with his spirit; He worked twice as many marvels” …] as He would continue to live in Elisha or working through Elisha.
So Elijah at the very least doesn’t act “bodily” anymore.

However, Fr. Ray makes a good point when he writes: “After Elijah’s disappearance, Elisha had an encounter with Jehoshaphat, king of Judah (2 Kgs 3:11-20). The latter was succeeded by his equally wicked son Jehoram. Several years into Jehoram’s reign “he received a letter from the prophet Elijah” (2 Chr 21:12)”
THis seems to support the translation to another place on earth, like Philip. So this should be researched too. We have to take into account that many think this letter was written before Elijah was taken by God, and was delivered afterwards.

That place is either Heaven (the eternal one) or paradise (a lower heaven, or paradise, or heaven). BUt anyway, these ideas come if we assume Enoch and Elijah will be the Two witnesses, at least for me. If we assume they aren’t, I have no problem i seeing them in Heaven “before Christ”, which just means in time, but not logically before the Lord.

 

[MarcoPG]

Gary Taylor answered me on this, you can check posts 57 and following

Sorry about the double post.

 

[MarcoPG]

I have read what is said here ecclesia.org/truth/enoch.html and I don’t know. If Elijah or anyone is in the atmosphere (the first heaven) without being made immortal, how can he live? A mortal body sustained by what miracle? I don’t see this supported anywhere, that a mortal body can be anywhere else than on earth as long as he biologically lives.
What are your thoughts? And I know, it is conjecture, but do you have arguments supporting this view of mortal bodies being in the sky? Unlike angels, bodily persons have bodily needs, and in Scripture i find nothing, do you? in the Tradition maybe (though it would surprise me)?

One of the arguments is also the letter that I mentioned before, containing events in the past and i the future, so it is an argument for Elijah’s translation on earth that some events are related as taking place in the future. But this is easily to understand, in my opinion. Some think Elijah wrote the letter prior to his translation. Since Elijah was a prophet, I don’t see the problem in writing things which will happen .

 

[Faith1960]

Gary Taylor answered me on this, you can posts 57 and following

I’m lost…just want to know if transfiguration is a beautiful state or a spiritual state.

 

[MarcoPG]

I’m lost…just want to know if transfiguration is a beautiful state or a spiritual state.

Our bodies will be transfigured, so it is not a spiritual state, it is the body aquiring new attributes by the grace of God. The Spirit doesn’t change. So it is not a spiritual sate, but a state of the body. What do you mean by beautiful? of the body?

 

[Faith1960]

Our bodies will be transfigured, so it is not a spiritual state, it is the body aquiring new attributes by the grace of God. The Spirit doesn’t change. So it is not a spiritual sate, but a state of the body. What do you mean by beautiful? of the body?

by beautiful, I was just quoting what the definition was I’d read online.

But what was/are the state of EandE’s bodies? By transfigured, what does that mean, what is their state?

 

[MarcoPG]

Iby beautiful, I was just quoting what the definition was I’d read online.

But what was/are the state of EandE’s bodies?

It sure is more beautiful than a corruptible body! But see that’s the question, for me at least. No one knows what state they are in, therefore, many possibilities arise. But if we say they are in heaven, then they are glorified. That is, since they were bodily assumed, they were already tranfigured and, I think, will remain so; so they cannot be the Witnesses in this case, at least for me.

If we say they were assumed but not in the third heaven (were God is seen face to face), then they would still need to undergo some physical change, since they didn’t die, as the most part of scholars and exegetes think, but still live bodily in one of the heavens, but would still need food and other biological things to be done, granted that God doesn’t provide for them, which sounds funny, but by that I mean He wouldn’t make they normal bodily functions stop. But I and no one can know for sure. What I look for, and I think many do, is an acceptable theory which squares evrything we know from Revelation and sticking to it.

Then there are also those who despite of the fact that the BIble say Enoch didn’t taste death think that he (and probably Elijah too) died, and that “so that he wouldn’t taste death” was just about his assumption, or some way to say he wouldn’t taste spiritual death (hell), among other theories on thier deaths. This is difficult to accept, in my case.

Others again, like Fr. Steve mentioned above, think Enoch died, as his translation was from on point of the earth to another. And I have shown that he has this theory based on the letter Elisha receives after his “death”/“assumption”.

 

[MarcoPG]

Gosh…Some people don’t need theories

testimonyofthetwowitnesses.com/

But they attack the Church

 

[Faith1960]

It sure is more beautiful than a corruptible body! But see that’s the question, for me at least. No one knows what state they are in, therefore, many possibilities arise. But if we say they are in heaven, then they are glorified. That is, since they were bodily assumed, they were already tranfigured and, I think, will remain so; so they cannot be the Witnesses in this case, at least for me.

If we say they were assumed but not in the third heaven (were God is seen face to face), then they would still need to undergo some physical change, since they didn’t die, as the most part of scholars and exegetes think, but still live bodily in one of the heavens, but would still need food and other biological things to be done, granted tha

t God doesn’t provide for them, which sounds funny, but by that I mean He wouldn’t make they normal bodily functions stop. But I and no one can know for sure.

So being transfigured is the same as glorified?

GAry Taylor, what do you mean by transfigured?

 

[MarcoPG]

So being transfigured is the same as glorified?

GAry Taylor, what do you mean by transfigured?

Well, transfiguration is going beyond our human figure, which thing Jesus could do but we can’t on our own. To have a glorified body, we have to have our body transfigured.
They are two different things technically, because we are to be passively transfigured when we are glorified, and Jesus could show His glory by means of His transfiguration that he did by his own means, actively if you like, where his bodily glorification came about at the resurrection, since He had to suffer and die. So this goes also deep into the mystery of the Incarnation, but the result of both transfiguration and glorification is for us the same.

 

[GaryTaylor]

So being transfigured is the same as glorified?

GAry Taylor, what do you mean by transfigured?

Well as we’re discussing the transfiguration this indicates a glorified state of Jesus Christ and a indication of redemption and divinization of Mose’s and Elijah-all glorified.

From my reading of Jimmy A this means they were glorified before the Cross, from my reading anyway. From Father Ray this isn’t so, but he doesn’t go deep into their death part.

The issues would be that God would have glorified Mose’s and Elijah from predestination, but I just don’t know what reason there would be for this logically. In other words what is suggested is they were glorified in real time before the Cross ever happened.

So, further the second issue, they are glorified today no matter how you look at it.

The Revelations aspect is difficult to comprehend. As these souls being glorified would have to die as revelations indicated, remain dead for the three and a half days with no separation of body and soul in a already glorified state. Follow?