Yes, Enoch and Elijah went to heaven [Akin]

[GaryTaylor]

So, further the second issue, they are glorified today no matter how you look at it.

The Revelations aspect is difficult to comprehend. As these souls being glorified would have to die as revelations indicated, remain dead for the three and a half days with no separation of body and soul in a already glorified state. Follow?

Its either as AmboseSJ suggested with literal interpretation and the complexity of Revelations with a double prophecy, or the two witnesses are not Elijah and Enoch?

 

[Faith1960]

Well as we’re discussing the transfiguration this indicates a glorified state of Jesus Christ and a indication of redemption and divinization of Mose’s and Elijah-all glorified.

From my reading of Jimmy A this means they were glorified before the Cross, from my reading anyway. From Father Ray this isn’t so, but he doesn’t go deep into their death part.

The issues would be that God would have glorified Mose’s and Elijah from predestination, but I just don’t know what reason there would be for this logically. In other words what is suggested is they were glorified in real time before the Cross ever happened.

So, further the second issue, they are glorified today no matter how you look at it.

The Revelations aspect is difficult to comprehend. As these souls being glorified would have to die as revelations indicated, remain dead for the three and a half days with no separation of body and soul in a already glorified state. Follow? /QUOTE

Yeah, so they arent just floating around in their normal, mortal bodies but glorified ones, right?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Yeah, so they arent just floating around in their normal, mortal bodies but glorified ones, right?

Today they are glorified. We been wrestling with Revelations and this…

Jn 3:13 which reads: “No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.”

 

[Faith1960]

Today they are glorified. We been wrestling with Revelations and this…

This is the third time I tried posting this, but my posts aren’t showing up. Anyway, I tend to side with the late Fr. Ryland on this one.

 

[MarcoPG]

This is the third time I tried posting this, but my posts aren’t showing up. Anyway, I tend to side with the late Fr. Ryland on this one.

Faith, do you think they died? Ok, but how do you understand these passages?

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

and

Sirach 44:16 Enoch pleased the Lord and was transferred, an example of a changed heart and mind for generations.

on Elijah I posted before (Sirach 48:9-10)

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Faith, do you think they died? Ok, but how do you understand these passages?

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

and

Sirach 44:16 Enoch pleased the Lord and was transferred, an example of a changed heart and mind for generations.

on Elijah I posted before (Sirach 48:9-10)

In my own mind, I don’t see any difficulty with believing that this referred to his being hidden by God from sin, or the evil one. Being “taken up” has a wide array of possible interpretations, only one of which is the Christian literal sense. However, the author of Hebrews was setting up Enoch as an example of Faith (as with Abraham and his other OT examples) by referring to traditional Judaic teaching. I really don’t think the author was intending to teach the novelty that Enoch was taken up to that Heaven, which Jesus clearly denies in the Gospel.

In verse 4, just previous to the Enoch one, the Author speaks of Abel, who though dead, yet he speaks. Surely we do not suppose that dead Abel was still speaking literally.

It seems more reasonable IMHO to suppose the author of Hebrews is using Biblical language to affirm the necessity of Faith, not to advance any notion that Enoch never died or was assumed into Heaven.

 

[MarcoPG]

In my own mind, I don’t see any difficulty with believing that this referred to his being hidden by God from sin, or the evil one. Being “taken up” has a wide array of possible interpretations, only one of which is the Christian literal sense. However, the author of Hebrews was setting up Enoch as an example of Faith (as with Abraham and his other OT examples) by referring to traditional Judaic teaching. I really don’t think the author was intending to teach the novelty that Enoch was taken up to that Heaven, which Jesus clearly denies in the Gospel.

In verse 4, just previous to the Enoch one, the Author speaks of Abel, who though dead, yet he speaks. Surely we do not suppose that dead Abel was still speaking literally.

It seems more reasonable IMHO to suppose the author of Hebrews is using Biblical language to affirm the necessity of Faith, not to advance any notion that Enoch never died or was assumed into Heaven.

Ambrose thank you, I am sorry that this part was in capital letters; I didn’t intend to. What I really wanted to emphasize was the sentence before, that Enoch should not taste death. It may not change anything for you, though. It would be interesting, nevertheless, to see what the bible as a whole means whe it is said that someone doesn’t taste death, if possible. I guess this isn’t the easiest thing to do.

Also, I see that you take Jesus’ statement as a negative judgement on possible “assumptions”. But what about eternity? Why is it impossible, in your opinion, that people were taken up “before Jesus”, this is, before He died and ascended in time. COuldn’t his merits be given to others, who would wait for the Lord to open the gates? I hope it doesn’t sound like I am forcing your opinion, but why is Jesus’ statement an absolute negative?

 

[Faith1960]

Faith, do you think they died? Ok, but how do you understand these passages?

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

and

Sirach 44:16 Enoch pleased the Lord and was transferred, an example of a changed heart and mind for generations.

on Elijah I posted before (Sirach 48:9-10)

As I think Fr. Ryland said, there are three heavens…and there was a letter from Enoch (or Elijah?) that came long after he was taken up.

 

[Faith1960]

As I think Fr. Ryland said, there are three heavens…and there was a letter from Enoch (or Elijah?) that came long after he was taken up.

Elijah.

 

[MarcoPG]

As I think Fr. Ryland said, there are three heavens…and there was a letter from Enoch (or Elijah?) that came long after he was taken up.

From Elijah

But many commmentaries note that the letter contained prophecies and was delivered after being taken up. That doesn’t mean he wrote it after his death or assumption, but simply that Elisha received it after the event.

 

[Faith1960]

From Elijah

But many commmentaries note that the letter contained prophecies and was delivered after being taken up. That doesn’t mean he wrote it after his death or assumption, but simply that Elisha received it after the event.

Many commentaries say all kinds of opinions. Mine is on the side of Fr. Ryland.

 

[MarcoPG]

Many commentaries say all kinds of opinions. Mine is on the side of Fr. Ryland.

It is fine. But would you mind check my questions to you in post 82?

 

[Faith1960]

It is fine. But would you mind check my questions to you in post 82?

I answered it in post 85.

 

[MarcoPG]

I answered it in post 85.

You think Elijah died. Do you think the same of Enoch? It is still unclear to me.

 

[Faith1960]

You think Elijah died. Do you think the same of Enoch? It is still unclear to me.

As Fr. Ryland said, “he walked with God, and he was no longer here, for God took him” ‘this seems simply to say he died’ IMO I agree with Fr. Ryland.

 

[MarcoPG]

As Fr. Ryland said, “he walked with God, and he was no longer here, for God took him” ‘this seems simply to say he died’ IMO I agree with Fr. Ryland.

and about Hebrews 11:5?

WHat do you think of the belief of the early CHurch that they both didn’t die?

Irenaeus says the following:

“The disciples of the Apostles say that they (Enoch and Elijah) whose living bodies were taken up from the earth, have been placed in an earthly paradise, where they will remain until the end of the world.” 2 (Ibid, Page 466. Adversus Haereses, Liber 4, Cap. 30).

In speaking of Elijah, Pope St. Gregory the Great (540 - 604 AD) writes:

"Elijah has not evaded death, but put it off. He was raised into this (aerial) Heaven, in order that he might suddenly be conveyed to some secret region of the earth, where he might live in great repose of the spirit and the flesh, until he shall return at the end of the world to pay the debt of death."3 (The Prophet of Carmel; Fr. Charles B. Garside, M.A.; Carmelite Monastery of Wheeling; 1924; Page 263. Lib. ii, Hom. xxix, in Evang. sec. 5).

Finally, St. Thomas Aquinas (1225 - 1274 AD) confirms what St. Gregory has said and refines it:

“Elijah was raised into the aerial, not the empyrean heaven, which is the abode of the Saints, and in like manner Enoch was carried away to a terrestrial paradise, where he and Elijah, it is believed, will live together until the coming of the Antichrist.”

Taken from dailycatholic.org/issue/10Mar/030407sm.htm

And yes for sure they could all be wrong, but no one seems to believe they died, in the early age of the Church.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

MarcoPG:

Also, I see that you take Jesus’ statement as a negative judgement on possible “assumptions”. But what about eternity? Why is it impossible, in your opinion, that people were taken up “before Jesus”, this is, before He died and ascended in time. COuldn’t his merits be given to others, who would wait for the Lord to open the gates? I hope it doesn’t sound like I am forcing your opinion, but why is Jesus’ statement an absolute negative?

I don’t mean to sound dogmatic about my opinion. As I mentioned earlier, I would not argue FOR these exceptions, but would rather lean in the opposite direction of Church Doctrine; that because of Original Sin, All children of Adam (save the BVM) are subject to its consequences. Even in the case of the BVM, I have ever thought it was not as a special grace to her personally, as a sort of honor, that she would be exempt from Original Sin, but rather as a necessary grace for the Most Holy Incarnation. Therefore, the merits of the Incarnation were applied in advance, for the sake of the Incarnation; Itself a profound mystery.

As we know, the idea of the Immaculate Conception was sore point for St. Thomas Aquinas, based not on the problem of applying the grace in advance, but rather in the way souls are created.

Who can say with assurance what really happened to Enoch and Elijah? Certainly Jesus seems to answer this question himself.

I am therefore satisfied that His answer rules out that ANYONE has escaped death or entered Heaven before Jesus.

But the speculations involving the non-deaths of Elijah and Enoch, as well as the presumed Assumptions seriously touch upon Church doctrines. So much so that it is necessary to create special “out of time” exemptions as well as “out of world” ones. To my way of thinking (and it is only my opinion) it is creating problems where there are none.

The reason I have a special concern in this debate, is that I also feel it derogates from the unique and special grace given to the BVM in her Assumption. Although you may disagree, I believe this train of thought with Enoch and Elijah tends in that direction. IOW, the BVM alone has been privileged with such a grace. There aren’t others like her.

 

[Faith1960]

and about Hebrews 11:5?

WHat do you think of the belief of the early CHurch that they both didn’t die?

Irenaeus says the following:

“The disciples of the Apostles say that they (Enoch and Elijah) whose living bodies were taken up from the earth, have been placed in an earthly paradise, where they will remain until the end of the world.” 2 (Ibid, Page 466. Adversus Haereses, Liber 4, Cap. 30).

In speaking of Elijah, Pope St. Gregory the Great (540 - 604 AD) writes:

"Elijah has not evaded death, but put it off. He was raised into this (aerial) Heaven, in order that he might suddenly be conveyed to some secret region of the earth, where he might live in great repose of the spirit and the flesh, until he shall return at the end of the world to pay the debt of death."3 (The Prophet of Carmel; Fr. Charles B. Garside, M.A.; Carmelite Monastery of Wheeling; 1924; Page 263. Lib. ii, Hom. xxix, in Evang. sec. 5).

Finally, St. Thomas Aquinas (1225 - 1274 AD) confirms what St. Gregory has said and refines it:

“Elijah was raised into the aerial, not the empyrean heaven, which is the abode of the Saints, and in like manner Enoch was carried away to a terrestrial paradise, where he and Elijah, it is believed, will live together until the coming of the Antichrist.”

Taken from dailycatholic.org/issue/10Mar/030407sm.htm

And yes for sure they could all be wrong, but no one seems to believe they died, in the early age of the Church.

Then what became of their bodies? We’re they immediately glorified or just mortal, regular bodies floating around?

 

[Faith1960]

Then what became of their bodies? We’re they immediately glorified or just mortal, regular bodies floating around?

By this, I mean, when they were first in heaven…we’re they glorified or what? What state were their bodies in?

 

[Nelka]