Yes, how the liturgy is celebrated DOES matter!!

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maryjk said:
What you see as being “allowed to impinge upon the Mass,” I see as someone trying as best they can, to do the best they can.

No priest or deacon is perfect. All will make mistakes from time to time. But with the prayers of the faithful and a good attitude from all, everyone will get through the mistakes.
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But this simply is not the case. When he is present at a Mass we won’t be able to understand what he says. He’ll also exhibit obvious trouble with reading and there will be a half dozen or more breaks in continuity because he’s sure to become discombobulated. There is the arrogance I spoke about on top of all this. Is it really a good thing to allow him to impinge on Masses?
 
agnes_therese said:
Your quarrel is not with the deacon himself – these don’t sound like things he can help. Your quarrel is with the deacon formation program in your diocese. Have you told them you don’t think they’re doing a good job in choosing candidates?
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Actually you are quite correct. He was originally rejected for the program as being unfit. A couple of weeks of maneuvering and he was in. I am told his wife did his homework for him.
 
curlycool89 said:
If the Bishop has assigned him to this parish and given him faculties for these duties, then yes. It’s the bishops decision who gets permission to do stuff.

It’s not the job of the laity to decide who’s a “good” priest or “good” deacon, that’s the Bishop’s responsibility. If you have a problem, talk to the bishop. If he’s says there’s no problem, then you have to let it go (some people would probably say “write to a certain congregation of the Curia”, but so long as there’s no abuses happening they’re just going to punt it back to the bishop anyways since it’s a purely local matter).

Guilty. I totally forgot to clear off the altar during the communion procession the other day, and had to quickly do it while Father was returning the ciborium to the tabernacle. I wonder how many calls for my head I’d get for that around here?
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The bishop is not about to do anything the 1-2 times we see him each year. I wish some more of you had to endure Sunday Masses with this deacon taking part.
 
Laetus said:
Has nothing to do with “perfectionism.” It has to do with celebrating the Mass with great care and love each and every time.
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Indeed, and as a member of the laity your responsibility from God is for you yourself to celebrate Mass with great care and love each and every time, and to leave things outside of your responsibilities to those who have been given them.
 
Not one person has address one of the saddest realities I know of in the Catholic Christian faith – people leave the Church because the celebration of the Mass is treated with such indifference and in some cases outfight abuse.

Most Catholics’ greatest exposure to the Church by far is though attending Mass. I wonder how many millions of souls have left because they Mass was treated like a parking validation station and not like the miracle it is?
 
Stylites said:
Indeed, and as a member of the laity your responsibility from God is for you yourself to celebrate Mass with great care and love each and every time, and to leave things outside of your responsibilities to those who have been given them.
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That can be quite difficult when there are 2 minute pauses in the Mass while they hunt for a preface…
 
Laetus said:
Actually you are quite correct. He was originally rejected for the program as being unfit. A couple of weeks of maneuvering and he was in. I am told his wife did his homework for him.
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How did you come by this information? You seem to be very concerned with other people’s lives. Your other thread is concerned with the intentions for Mass being “taken” by one family, for a year.

Is the plank in your own eye bothering you at all?

Yes, it’s perfectionism, projected onto others.
 
Laetus said:
That can be quite difficult when there are 2 minute pauses in the Mass while they hunt for a preface…
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That’s what ribbons are for. If the deacon can’t manage to set the ribbons properly then maybe the sacristan should step in.
 
wasserfall said:
That’s what ribbons are for. If the deacon can’t manage to set the ribbons properly then maybe the sacristan should step in.
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Maybe the deacon should sit in the pews? Oh! NO! He is ordained! We must let him impinge upon the Mass! :rolleyes:
 
Laetus said:
That can be quite difficult when there are 2 minute pauses in the Mass while they hunt for a preface…
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Use the sacred silence to pray. And if it isn’t silent, simply use the time to pray.

Sorry a two minute pause is not a big deal.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
How did you come by this information? You seem to be very concerned with other people’s lives. Your other thread is concerned with the intentions for Mass being “taken” by one family, for a year.

Is the plank in your own eye bothering you at all?

Yes, it’s perfectionism, projected onto others.
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Stop judging me.

It was a VERY big deal when he was rejected. He had been telling people for years that he was already a deacon (long before there was a formation in our diocese.) As an altar server he literally pretended to be one (as far as the pastor would allow.) I was one of the people asked to write a letter on his behalf. That’s how I know.

As I said, stop judging me.
 
Laetus said:
Not one person has address one of the saddest realities I know of in the Catholic Christian faith – people leave the Church because the celebration of the Mass is treated with such indifference and in some cases outfight abuse.

Most Catholics’ greatest exposure to the Church by far is though attending Mass. I wonder how many millions of souls have left because they Mass was treated like a parking validation station and not like the miracle it is?
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I wonder how many people prefer to worship worship rather than God.
 
maryjk said:
Use the sacred silence to pray. And if it isn’t silent, simply use the time to pray.

Sorry a two minute pause is not a big deal.
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“Sorry” but it is. The celebration of the Mass deserves better.
 
Laetus said:
Stop judging me.

It was a VERY big deal when he was rejected. He had been telling people for years that he was already a deacon (long before there was a formation in our diocese.) As an altar server he literally pretended to be one (as far as the pastor would allow.) I was one of the people asked to write a letter on his behalf. That’s how I know.

As I said, stop judging me.
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“For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.”
 
Laetus said:
Stop judging me.

It was a VERY big deal when he was rejected. He had been telling people for years that he was already a deacon (long before there was a formation in our diocese.) As an altar server he literally pretended to be one (as far as the pastor would allow.) I was one of the people asked to write a letter on his behalf. That’s how I know.

As I said, stop judging me.
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You’re putting yourself out on a public forum. I am raising reasonable questions. Your posts have been critical and the other thread is seriously petty.

You didn’t ask, but if it were me, I’d find another parish, but I suspect that one won’t be perfect either.
 
TheRealJuliane said:
You’re putting yourself out on a public forum. I am raising reasonable questions. Your posts have been critical and the other thread is seriously petty.

You didn’t ask, but if it were me, I’d find another parish, but I suspect that one won’t be perfect either.
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Once more, please stop judging me.

Your snide remark aside I would go to the other parish in town but it is downright abusive. I don’t want to listen to the Gospel being read by the “deacon couple.”
 
Joan_M said:
I totally agree with you. I have come to realize that most priests and bishops have no idea how many of their brethern in Holy Orders are messing with the Mass. I can understand a priest making an error. We can all make mistakes. What I cannot take is priests deliberately making up or changing the prayers as they go along. What is it that makes them think they can disobey the Church, the Pope, and so disobey God? Do they not realize that they will answer for their arrogance, eventually? Do they not realize that they are also abusing their congregations, since the Church has made it clear that the laity is entitled to an authentic liturgy - which means a liturgy exactly as directed by the Church?

I do not go to Mass looking for mistakes or deliberate changes done by the priest. I go to Mass to participate in the Worship of the Church for God Almighty. I have a Missal and I follow it - because following the written word helps to deepen understanding of what is said. Unfortunately, it shows clearly when Father Ad-libby ad-libs. Yesterday I went to Mass in a chapel I do not frequent. The Mass was celebrated by a priest I can recognize but do not know. He had me hunting in the missal to try to see what Mass he was celebrating - even though knew, since he was wearing red vestments and had announced that it was St. Justin Martyr! Why? Because the opening prayer he “read” had a first half that was nothing like what was in the Missal! When he started the Eucharistic Prayer, I was checking to see which one he was saying, and could not find it at first (it was the 2nd one - the commonest one read in my diocese) - because he had totally changed the start of it. When a priest does things like this they cannot be missed, unless the hearer has no clue what the prayers of the Mass really are. It is not being a liturgy police. It is being a faithful Catholic who has zeal for the Liturgy and is being abused by priests.

Why cannot our priests practice the virtue of obedience - to the Church, the Pope and God? Why will they not “Say the Black, do the Red”? Pride. Arrogance. Disobedience. And we should be thankful for that???
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I agree with you. We have a share of outright abuses but they have dropped in number over the past several years. I’m speaking more or less about celebrating the Mass with very little care and then getting defensive when anyone mentions it.
 
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