Yes, I am sinner , but I am saved sinner.

[Mannyfit75]

What James is saying in (James 2:24) is that genuine faith (which is the only ground of justification before God) will always be a faith that produces good works before men as evidence of true faith. The good works themselves will not justify anyone.
(James 2:24) as compared to (Romans 4:2) “For as Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.”

A study bible I have reconciles both verses this way:
“These are two aspects of one truth. Paul speaks of that which justifies “before God”, viz. : faith alone, wholly apart from works; James of the proof “before men”, that he who professes to have justifying faith really has it. Paul speaks of what God sees—faith; James of what men see—works, as the visible evidence of faith. Paul draws his illustration fron (Gen. 15:6); James from (Gen. 22:1-19).
James’ key-phase is “you see” (Jas.2:24), for men cannot see faith except as manifested through works.”

As I read this this, it only nullifies the doctrine of faith alone. In your statement you wrote. of what men see—works, as the visible evidence of faith.

In the end faith without works is dead, likewise, works without faith is also dead.

 

[brkn1]

As I read this this, it only nullifies the doctrine of faith alone. In your statement you wrote. of what men see—works, as the visible evidence of faith.

In the end faith without works is dead, likewise, works without faith is also dead.

I understand what you are pointing out, but the main point is that we are not justified before men.
If you are saying that God will only justify us with a combination of both works and faith, then we can glory before God in our works, which contradicts (Romans 4:2).
God could not be said to have given us the gift of grace, if we first had to earn it with some works along with the faith. Even the faith needed to be saved is by the gift of grace, but it is only by faith that we are justified before God and nothing else.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I understand what you are pointing out, but the main point is that we are not justified before men.
If you are saying that God will only justify us with a combination of both works and faith, then we can glory before God in our works, which contradicts (Romans 4:2).
God could not be said to have given us the gift of grace, if we first had to earn it with some works along with the faith. Even the faith needed to be saved is by the gift of grace, but it is only by faith that we are justified before God and nothing else.

Your just contradicted yourself in the previous post. Now you just said, but it is only by faith that we are justified.

This would also contradict Jesus own words in Matthew 25:31-46.

31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32
and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33
He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35
For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36
naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37
Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38
When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39
When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40
And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41
17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42
For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43
a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44
18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46
And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

If you say you are justified by faith alone then how do you justify standing before the Lord when he ask you these questions? Are you saying you are excluded from judgment, just because you have faith?

 

[brkn1]

Your just contradicted yourself in the previous post. Now you just said, but it is only by faith that we are justified.

This would also contradict Jesus own words in Matthew 25:31-46.

If you say you are justified by faith alone then how do you justify standing before the Lord when he ask you these questions? Are you saying you are excluded from judgment, just because you have faith?

The true faith that saves me will have the resulting good works that come out of that true faith.
It will not be the works that saves me though, just the true faith.

How can you explain (Romans 3:24-28) ? Certainly not by “works”. That is excluded very strongly in these verses as a method of justification.

I have not seen anyone, who believes that works earn some part in our justification before God, explain adequately: (Romans 11:6) “And if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace; otherwise work is no more work.”

 

[Mannyfit75]

The true faith that saves me will have the resulting good works that come out of that true faith.
It will not be the works that saves me though, just the true faith.

How can you explain (Romans 3:24-28) ? Certainly not by “works”. That is excluded very strongly in these verses as a method of justification.

If you look down the passage in Roman 3:31: Do we then overthrown the law by this faith? By no MEANS! On, contrary, we must uphold the law. So again its not by faith alone.

I have not seen anyone, who believes that works earn some part in our justification before God, explain adequately: (Romans 11:6) “And if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace; otherwise work is no more work.”

We profess that by God’s grace we are saved and justified before God. It is grace through faith acted by our deeds that we merit our salvation. Most Non-Catholic Christians like yourself like to separate faith OR works. Catholic is both faith, works, and through the grace of God.

 

[brkn1]

If you look down the passage in Roman 3:31: Do we then overthrown the law by this faith? By no MEANS! On, contrary, we must uphold the law. So again its not by faith alone.
Hi Mannyfit, My study bible answers this better than I could:
"The sinner establishes the law in its right use and honor by confessing his guilt, and acknowledging that by it he is justly condemned. Christ, on the sinner’s behalf, establishes the law by enduring its penalty, death. Cf. Mt. 5:17-18.

We profess that by God’s grace we are saved and justified before God. It is grace through faith acted by our deeds that we merit our salvation. Most Non-Catholic Christians like yourself like to separate faith OR works. Catholic is both faith, works, and through the grace of God.

The problem I have with the “merit of works” part of our obtaining salvation is that “merit” and “grace” exclude each other according to ( Romans 11:6).

Instead of going on about this, I would like to say that we do agree that someone who claims to be saved by faith and does not do good works, is very likely fooling themselves. True faith will definitely incline a believer towards obeying God and doing good works “through the grace of God”.

We have more in common (especially in Christ, on our behalf) than we have in difference.
God Bless.

 

[Brendan]

Instead of going on about this, I would like to say that we do agree that someone who claims to be saved by faith and does not do good works, is very likely fooling themselves. True faith will definitely incline a believer towards obeying God and doing good works “through the grace of God”.

God Bless.

You say that the believe is ‘inclined’ to perform works.

But do they still retain the Free Will to choose not to perform the works?

And if so, what are the effects if they choose not to perform Good Works? Are they still ‘saved’,(in light of Mt 25)?

In other words, if someone recieves and accepts Faith, but chooses not to perform the works outlined in Matthew 25, what will their judgement be?

 

[brkn1]

You say that the believe is ‘inclined’ to perform works.

But do they still retain the Free Will to choose not to perform the works?

And if so, what are the effects if they choose not to perform Good Works? Are they still ‘saved’,(in light of Mt 25)?

In other words, if someone recieves and accepts Faith, but chooses not to perform the works outlined in Matthew 25, what will their judgement be?

Once a person becomes a born-again believer, the Holy Spirit indwells him/her as a new Divine Nature.
Our sin-nature is still there too, but “grace for grace” gives us the ability through the Holy Spirit to overcome our original sin nature (sin-tendencies) unlike before. We are not robots and we will still struggle to obey God, but we will find that we no longer can “enjoy” sin the way we used to. Sin will make us very uncomfortable and guilty compared to before.

As one of God’s children, we will now be severly chastened if we continue to choose to sin. Look at David’s life to see what happened when he chose to sin deliberately and seriously.
Jesus said that He would not lose one of His sheep, and if that means He has to strike us down to keep us in line, that’s what He does to His own.

Yes, a saved person still has the Free Will to choose not to perform “good works through grace”, but the Divine Nature in us inclines us towards choosing the good works and we pay a severe penalty on earth if we don’t.
(Hebrews 12:6) “For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.”

 

[Brendan]

Then why does the entire Matthew 25 discourse exist if those with Faith will unfailling do what Christ has outlined.

Or James 5 for that matter.

If what you say is true, it seems God is being redundant.

Or if what you say is true, the only real way a person will know if they are ‘saved’ at all is if they actually do the works.

Is that your premise?

And this ‘striking down’ you speak of, how would that work if a person recieves Faith, but again chooses not to act upon it.

According to Matt 25, such a person would be cast into the everlasting fire, is that what you mean by ‘striking down’

 

[brkn1]

Then why does the entire Matthew 25 discourse exist if those with Faith will unfailling do what Christ has outlined.
’

Matthew 25 is talking about a judgement of people and nations that have not died yet. You are confusing this judgement with the last judgement after the resurrection of all the dead in Revelation 20:11-25. Unless you can show me where the people in Matthew 25 are resurrected dead, then we can not be speaking about the same thing.

Christ must return in His glory while we are still alive for Matthew 25 to apply to us.

I have a question for you:
If a person once comes to Jesus in true faith, how is it possible for that person to later be told by Jesus: “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you.] : depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”? (Matthew 7:23)

No matter how much you twist the meaning of this verse, Jesus could not ever say I never knew you.] if we once came to Him in true faith.

 

[Brendan]

Matthew 25 is talking about a judgement of people and nations that have not died yet. You are confusing this judgement with the last judgement after the resurrection of all the dead in Revelation 20:11-25. Unless you can show me where the people in Matthew 25 are resurrected dead, then we can not be speaking about the same thing.

The prophesy happens “When the Son of Man comes into his glory” and is seated on his throne. Where does it say that this has to happen when we are still alive. How is this not His throne in Heaven

I have a question for you:
If a person once comes to Jesus in true faith, how is it possible for that person to later be told by Jesus: “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you.] : depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”? (Matthew 7:23)

No matter how much you twist the meaning of this verse, Jesus could not ever say I never knew you.] if we once came to Him in true faith.

He rejects those who reject Him. And if we have Free Will, as we both agree that we do, that remains a possibility to happen AFTER we have accepted Him.

Much as Judas did.

 

[brkn1]

He rejects those who reject Him. And if we have Free Will, as we both agree that we do, that remains a possibility to happen AFTER we have accepted Him.

Much as Judas did.

Your example of Judas proves that Jesus was not speaking in the physical sense or everyone who saw Jesus would have been saved.

Jesus was speaking of the spiritual knowing that can only happen when a person is born-again of the Holy Spirit.
True faith in Jesus has this condition, so a once born-again person can not be “unborn” as you suggest, and Jesus would not say “never known” to one of His sheep whose “works of iniquity” (all sins) had already forever been covered by His redemptive Blood.

 

[brkn1]

The prophesy happens “When the Son of Man comes into his glory” and is seated on his throne. Where does it say that this has to happen when we are still alive. How is this not His throne in Heaven

My point was that “we” might not be alive when this happens and what is said in Matt. 25 may not directly apply to us.

All the resurrected dead must come before Jesus as individuals, not as nations. The word “nations” can only apply to the living of the world.

God continuously judges the nations, even now, and Jesus promised that He would come back as He last left in glory to this world “at the last days”. This will be to first establish an earthly kingdom (the Kingdom of Heaven) as described in Isaiah Chapter 2. This kingdom later gets turned over to the Kingdom of God which is all-encompassing of all creation.

PS: I have to go back to work now, but I will check in this evening. God Bless.

 

[lumendelumine]

My point was that “we” might not be alive when this happens and what is said in Matt. 25 may not directly apply to us.

Are you serious? Are you really saying that God will make a difference between people who are “dead” and people who are “alive” at the Last Judgment? Everyone will be resurrected, so everyone will be alive!

And how do you think Mt 25 does not apply to people who have been “lucky enough” do die before the Last Judgment? It’s just beyond me…

All the resurrected dead must come before Jesus as individuals, not as nations. The word “nations” can only apply to the living of the world.

??? What are you talking about? And where did you get this from?

 

[JoeyWarren]

Brkn1, what you don’t understand, is that the majorirty of non-catholics believe that…how is the best way to say this…they believe that once they are saved…there is nothing left to do…even though they believe their faith will produce good works…they are not bothered by the fact that they have nothing to show for it…no attempt has been made to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, quench the thirsty, visit the sick, and visit the imprisoned on a regular basis.

The average run of the mill non-catholic believes they only accept the Lord Jesus Christ as savior and it’s all done. They have either convinced themselves or others have convince them that they can never sin again, so when they do sin, they don’t recognize it as sin, because the mind has masked it.

I know non-catholic christians that gossip all day and then make the claim they don’t sin. This is typical of most run of the mill.

They judge, judge, judge and use the scripture “you shall know them by their fruit” as the excuse to judge and talk about people.

You on the other hand are not a typical run of the mill non-catholic.

It’s the mentality of the majority that is messed up.

 

[FCEGM]

-What is the difference between the Catholic Moral Assurance of Salvation and Evangelical Absolute Assurance of Salvation ?

-What is the meaning of the statement ,that Evangelicalism often separates profound, life-transforming repentance, and penance ?

Athanasiy, you might find these articles helpful:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a119.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/a127.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/a53.htm

 

[brkn1]

Are you serious? Are you really saying that God will make a difference between people who are “dead” and people who are “alive” at the Last Judgment? Everyone will be resurrected, so everyone will be alive!

And how do you think Mt 25 does not apply to people who have been “lucky enough” do die before the Last Judgment? It’s just beyond me…

??? What are you talking about? And where did you get this from?

What I tried to point out is that Mt 25 does not seem to be referring to the Last Judgement as many assume. There is going to be a final judgement of nations on earth before the Last Judgement.
The Catholic Church and many Protestants disagree with those who see a possible Millenial Kingdom before the Last Judgement, so you are in good company. It is not a subject that I am especially interested in right now and I sort of regret bringing it up. It is another subject than this thread is about.

 

[brkn1]

Brkn1, what you don’t understand, is that the majorirty of non-catholics believe that…how is the best way to say this…they believe that once they are saved…there is nothing left to do…even though they believe their faith will produce good works…they are not bothered by the fact that they have nothing to show for it…no attempt has been made to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, quench the thirsty, visit the sick, and visit the imprisoned on a regular basis.

The average run of the mill non-catholic believes they only accept the Lord Jesus Christ as savior and it’s all done. They have either convinced themselves or others have convince them that they can never sin again, so when they do sin, they don’t recognize it as sin, because the mind has masked it.

I know non-catholic christians that gossip all day and then make the claim they don’t sin. This is typical of most run of the mill.

They judge, judge, judge and use the scripture “you shall know them by their fruit” as the excuse to judge and talk about people.

You on the other hand are not a typical run of the mill non-catholic.

It’s the mentality of the majority that is messed up.

Hi JoeyWarren,
As I told you before, I understand and agree that the “once saved always saved” mentality can be very dangerous for those who use it as an excuse to “live like the devil and not worry about the penalty”.
We are told to “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” (2 Corintians 13:5)
Those who do not show the fruits of true faith are likely fooling themselves about even having true faith. We should always be trying to obey and please our Lord and God in gratitude for His wonderful Grace.
God Bless.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Hi JoeyWarren,
As I told you before, I understand and agree that the “once saved always saved” mentality can be very dangerous for those who use it as an excuse to “live like the devil and not worry about the penalty”.
We are told to “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” (2 Corintians 13:5)
Those who do not show the fruits of true faith are likely fooling themselves about even having true faith. We should always be trying to obey and please our Lord and God in gratitude for His wonderful Grace.
God Bless.

amen.

 

[charlye]

Hi JoeyWarren,
As I told you before, I understand and agree that the “once saved always saved” mentality can be very dangerous for those who use it as an excuse to “live like the devil and not worry about the penalty”.
We are told to “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” (2 Corintians 13:5)
Those who do not show the fruits of true faith are likely fooling themselves about even having true faith. We should always be trying to obey and please our Lord and God in gratitude for His wonderful Grace.
God Bless.

You fail to understand, however, that when one is born again they are a new creation in Christ Jesus … **we are not given a license to sin **… we are dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Read Romans 8:1 on the power of sanctification … and Romans 6 on righteousness and sanctification for further edification.

Charlye