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myfavoritmartin
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Can a sinner by good works, obtain the grace of justification?
YES OR NO?
YES OR NO?
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RyanML
Guest
No. He may be able to dispose himself to receive that grace through doing good, but justification and salvation are gifts the come by faith through grace. Of course our faith must be a faith in action or it is a dead faith (James 2:24)
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Neil_Anthony
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ziapueblo
Guest
No. A person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
have you guys ever heard of the “doctrinal catechism” by stephen keenan?
imprimatur by bishop mcclosjey?
imprimatur by bishop mcclosjey?
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
from that catechism chapter 1 on justification page 139 This question is posed AND answered…
LOOK
Q. Must we then conclude, that the sinner cannot, by good works, obtain the grace of justification?
A. The sinner may obtain the grace of justification by good works proceeding from a broken and penitent heart,
LOOK
Q. Must we then conclude, that the sinner cannot, by good works, obtain the grace of justification?
A. The sinner may obtain the grace of justification by good works proceeding from a broken and penitent heart,
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davidv
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How is this answer different than the ones provided by the other posters?
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RyanML
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Please be honest in your posting. The catechism continues: because these are necessary predispositions and conditions, but no works of his own can ever MERIT the grace of justification.
It also teaches: Q. What is justification?
A. It is a grace which makes us friends of God.
Q. Can a sinner merit this justifying grace?
A. No, he cannot; because all the good works which the sinner performs whilst he is in a state of mortal sin, are dead works, which have no merit sufficient to justify.
Q. Is it an article of the Catholic faith, that the sinner, in mortal sin, cannot merit the grace of justification?
A. Yes; it is decreed in the seventh chap of the sixth sess. of the Council of Trent, that neither faith, nor good works, preceding justification, can merit the grace of justification.
Q. How then is the sinner justified?
A. He is justified gratuitously by the pure mercy of God, not on account of his own or any human merit, but purely through the merits of Jesus Christ; for Jesus Christ is our only mediator of redemption, who alone, by his passion and death, has reconciled us to his Father.
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Sean_Boyle
Guest
What is your point???
Same answer that you’ve been given and will get from those who understand Christ and his Church.
So you misunderstand Catholic teaching because it’s been taught to you from a less than reputible source? yes or no?
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cfrancis
Guest
Full disclosure is an important part of any discussion such as this.
From the same DOCTRINAL CATECHISM, Justification, Ch 1 (pp138-139
Q. What is justification?
A. It is a grace which makes us friends of God.
Q. Can a sinner merit this justifying grace?
A. No, he cannot; because all the good works which the sinner performs whilst he is in a state of mortal sin, are dead works, which have no merit sufficient to justify.
Q. Is it an article of the Catholic faith, that the sinner, in mortal sin, cannot merit the grace of justification?
A. Yes; it is decreed in the seventh chap of the sixth sess. of the Council of Trent, that neither faith, nor good works, preceding justification, can merit the grace of justification.
Q. How then is the sinner justified?
A. He is justified gratuitously by the pure mercy of God, not on account of his own or any human merit, but purely through the merits of Jesus Christ; for Jesus Christ is our only mediator of redemption, who alone, by his passion and death, has reconciled us to his Father.
Q. Why then do Protestants charge us with
[pg. 139]
believing, that the sinner can merit the remission of his sins?
A. Their ignorance of the Catholic doctrine as the cause of this, as well as many other false charges.
*** Q. Must we then conclude, that the sinner cannot, by good works, obtain the grace of justification?*
A. The sinner may obtain the grace of justification by good works proceeding from a broken and penitent heart, because these are necessary predispositions and conditions, but no works of his own can ever MERIT the grace of justification.**
From the same DOCTRINAL CATECHISM, Justification, Ch 1 (pp138-139
Q. What is justification?
A. It is a grace which makes us friends of God.
Q. Can a sinner merit this justifying grace?
A. No, he cannot; because all the good works which the sinner performs whilst he is in a state of mortal sin, are dead works, which have no merit sufficient to justify.
Q. Is it an article of the Catholic faith, that the sinner, in mortal sin, cannot merit the grace of justification?
A. Yes; it is decreed in the seventh chap of the sixth sess. of the Council of Trent, that neither faith, nor good works, preceding justification, can merit the grace of justification.
Q. How then is the sinner justified?
A. He is justified gratuitously by the pure mercy of God, not on account of his own or any human merit, but purely through the merits of Jesus Christ; for Jesus Christ is our only mediator of redemption, who alone, by his passion and death, has reconciled us to his Father.
Q. Why then do Protestants charge us with
[pg. 139]
believing, that the sinner can merit the remission of his sins?
A. Their ignorance of the Catholic doctrine as the cause of this, as well as many other false charges.
*** Q. Must we then conclude, that the sinner cannot, by good works, obtain the grace of justification?*
A. The sinner may obtain the grace of justification by good works proceeding from a broken and penitent heart, because these are necessary predispositions and conditions, but no works of his own can ever MERIT the grace of justification.**
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Usagi
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What are the questions and answers that lead up to that one? I’d have to disagree with the writer based on just what you’ve quoted, but I’d be interested to see how he gets to that point. It’s obviously a follow-up question of some kind.
Like all your respondents so far (and, I’m pretty sure, the Council of Trent), I’d answer a strong no to your opening question.
Catholics do give good works a greater role than many Protestants, but they are never the source of the initial grace of justification. Justification is always an undeserved gift, never an earned reward.
Usagi
Like all your respondents so far (and, I’m pretty sure, the Council of Trent), I’d answer a strong no to your opening question.
Catholics do give good works a greater role than many Protestants, but they are never the source of the initial grace of justification. Justification is always an undeserved gift, never an earned reward.
Usagi
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VociMike
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Wow, major deceitful post by the OP! What was the point of this attempt at misleading, myfavoritemartin?
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Usagi
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Ah, never mind. My question was answered at least twice while I was typing, and someone even gave the specific Trent citation.
Usagi
Usagi
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myfavoritmartin
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don’t you think thats a lil harsh dude? I was reading the catechism I came across this question and thought to myself I bet not to many catholics understand it this way…But you in turn suggest I am doing satans work…
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Neil_Anthony
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Martin,
I think the key words there are “broken and penitent heart”. We do believe that those are necessary to receive the grace of justification.
The actual difference between Catholic theology and your beliefs is actually very very slight… Please let’s not overblow it into something it is not. No one here believes that we can somehow ever earn or deserve justification.
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e61iuser
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Typical fundamentalist tactic of lies, obfuscation and deception.
Next he’ll probably come back with a different misquote from someplace else, completely and conveniently ignoring the replies posted herein.
There is nothing new under the sun…
Next he’ll probably come back with a different misquote from someplace else, completely and conveniently ignoring the replies posted herein.
There is nothing new under the sun…
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myfavoritmartin
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I am NOT speaking about merit I AM speaking about OBTAINING… And I would beg to differ the answer specifically addresses “obtaining the grace of justification” by “good works”
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myfavoritmartin
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Nice…the rest of the context has nothing to do with what I am questioning but heh thanks for calling me a deceiver…
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Neil_Anthony
Guest
Well, if you get something, you have obtained it. The word doesn’t (or isn’t supposed to) imply anything about how you ‘got’ it.
People use words differently, their meaning changes over time, and there is always a range of meanings. I agree with you that in common speak, to say “i obtained” something sounds like I did the work of getting it. But it is also correct to say “for my birthday I obtained gifts”, even if you did nothing to obtain the gifts.
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VociMike
Guest
Selective quoting where leaving off the following text changes the apparent meaning of the quoted text 180 degrees is deceitful, pure and simple. Can you possibly disagree?
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