Yes or no?

[joe371]

Was there just one Catholic Church from the 1st century to the 5th century? **I am told no by some. **

Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, student of John the Apostle Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world… (The Martyrdom of Polycarp 8 A.D. 110]).

“[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished.” Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).

“…to be in honour however with the Catholic Church for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline…one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul’s name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church…But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all.” The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177).

The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Irenaeus Against Heresies 1:10 A.D. 189]).

Where was Marcion then, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus then, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled (Tertullian The Prescription Against Heretics 22,30 A.D.200])

“But for those who say, There was when He was not, and, Before being born He was not, and that He came into existence out of nothing, or who assert that the Son of God is of a different hypostasis or substance…these the Catholic and apostolic Church anathematizes.” Creed of Nicea (A.D. 325).

“Concerning those who call themselves Cathari, if they come over to the Catholic and Apostolic Church, the great and holy Synod decrees that they who are ordained shall continue as they are in the clergy…and a time [of restoration] fixed so that in all things they will follow the dogmas of the Catholic Church…” Council of Nicaea I (A.D. 325).

Concerning this Holy Catholic Church Paul writes to Timothy, ‘That thou mayest know haw thou oughtest to behave thyself in the House of God, which is the Church of the Living God, the pillar and ground of the truth’” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures,18:25(A.D. 350).

“And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the life-giver, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is together worshiped and together glorified, Who spoke through the prophets; in one holy Catholic, and apostolic Church.” Constantinopolitan Creed (A.D. 381).

“Those who from heresy turn to orthodoxy, and to the portion of those who are being saved, we receive according to the following method and custom: Arians, and Macedonians, and Sabbatians, and Novatians, who call themselves Cathari or Aristori, and Quarto-decimans or Tetradites, and Apollinarians, we receive, upon their giving a written renunciation [of their errors] and anathematize every heresy which is not in accordance with the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of God.” Council of Constantinople I, Canon 7 (A.D. 381).

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard.” Augustine, The True Religion, 7:12 (A.D. 390).

“Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith…” Council of Chalcedon, Session III (A.D. 451).

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Was there just one Catholic Church from the 1st century to the 5th century? **I am told no by some. **

Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, student of John the Apostle Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

When finally he concluded his prayer, after remembering all who had at any time come his way – small folk and great folk, distinguished and undistinguished, and the whole Catholic Church throughout the world… (The Martyrdom of Polycarp 8 A.D. 110]).

“[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished.” Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).

“…to be in honour however with the Catholic Church for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline…one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul’s name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church…But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all.” The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177).

The Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said (Irenaeus Against Heresies 1:10 A.D. 189]).

Where was Marcion then, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus then, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago – in the reign of Antoninus for the most part – and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled (Tertullian The Prescription Against Heretics 22,30 A.D.200])

“But for those who say, There was when He was not, and, Before being born He was not, and that He came into existence out of nothing, or who assert that the Son of God is of a different hypostasis or substance…these the Catholic and apostolic Church anathematizes.” Creed of Nicea (A.D. 325).

“Concerning those who call themselves Cathari, if they come over to the Catholic and Apostolic Church, the great and holy Synod decrees that they who are ordained shall continue as they are in the clergy…and a time [of restoration] fixed so that in all things they will follow the dogmas of the Catholic Church…” Council of Nicaea I (A.D. 325).

Concerning this Holy Catholic Church Paul writes to Timothy, ‘That thou mayest know haw thou oughtest to behave thyself in the House of God, which is the Church of the Living God, the pillar and ground of the truth’” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures,18:25(A.D. 350).

“And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the life-giver, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son is together worshiped and together glorified, Who spoke through the prophets; in one holy Catholic, and apostolic Church.” Constantinopolitan Creed (A.D. 381).

“Those who from heresy turn to orthodoxy, and to the portion of those who are being saved, we receive according to the following method and custom: Arians, and Macedonians, and Sabbatians, and Novatians, who call themselves Cathari or Aristori, and Quarto-decimans or Tetradites, and Apollinarians, we receive, upon their giving a written renunciation [of their errors] and anathematize every heresy which is not in accordance with the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of God.” Council of Constantinople I, Canon 7 (A.D. 381).

“We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church, which is Catholic and which is called Catholic not only by her own members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they will not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard.” Augustine, The True Religion, 7:12 (A.D. 390).

“Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith…” Council of Chalcedon, Session III (A.D. 451).

Not the Roman Catholic Church, but the catholic church. All of these quotes of dishonestly and erroneously capitalized it as to make it seem like they were speaking of a particular modern day denomination.

 

[joe371]

Not the Roman Catholic Church, but the catholic church. All of these quotes of dishonestly and erroneously capitalized it as to make it seem like they were speaking of a particular modern day denomination.

Please stop calling me dishonest. Question: All of these leaders, spanning the centuries as well as the Roman Empire, geographically, from Rome to France to Turkey etc. all belonged to the same Catholic Church?

 

[dronald]

Not the Roman Catholic Church, but the catholic church. All of these quotes of dishonestly and erroneously capitalized it as to make it seem like they were speaking of a particular modern day denomination.

I actually think this needs to be addressed as I’ve seen you bring it up twice; and that is the capitalization of “Catholic” as if they were capitalizing that word before.

Perhaps it merits its own thread? What do you think? Because we certainly know that catholic should be translated to universal, to which there is no problem. But Catholics tend to capitalize Catholic as if it was done by the Early Church Fathers.

 

[cmodrmac]

I would encourage you to read the works by Pagels and Ehrman on early or lost Christianities-ther were a host of competing factions at the time-the Gnostics perhaps the most prominent but there were Arians and Manicheans

there was also a group still extant today that followed the Teachings of John the Baptis( although they fit in the Gnostic camp

the early Church did not have 1000 page + catechisms and other rigorous rituals early on -

plus there were local variations on the theme such as early Celtic Christianity

 

[Corki]

Not the Roman Catholic Church, but the catholic church. All of these quotes of dishonestly and erroneously capitalized it as to make it seem like they were speaking of a particular modern day denomination.

The Catholic Church and the catholic church were the same entity in the early days of Christianity. The adjective “Roman” was not added until the time of King Henry VIII.

These quotes are not speaking of any denomination. They refer to the Catholic Church which is not a denomination at all.

And yes, there was only one Church at that time. There were some heretical sects even early on and by the 5th Century, there was more differentiation between the Eastern and Western “lungs” of the Church but they were still one.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Please stop calling me dishonest. Question: All of these leaders, spanning the centuries as well as the Roman Empire, geographically, from Rome to France to Turkey etc. all belonged to the same Catholic Church?

Not you. Whoever transcribed the quotes and capitalized the word is dishonest. Since they were speaking of the catholic that is the universal church and not a particular denomination.

 

[CompSciGuy]

There has only ever been one holy, Catholic and apostolic church and it was one in both doctrine and leadership. If you read the Church fathers this is the case. During the times those were written, there was only the Catholic Church, and then there were heretics. In that letter of Ignatius if you read the whole letter he was saying that you have to be in communion with the bishop and you cannot partake of the eucharist with heretics “who deny that it is the flesh and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.” The writings of the early church fathers are rife with examples where the one church was appealed to on matters of doctrine, and where apostolic succession was cited as a certificate of authenticity of the Catholic Church.

If anyone tries to deny these claims they need to do better than misquoting the church fathers or the scripture in order to make it sound like they are saying something different than they actually are.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

The Catholic Church and the catholic church were the same entity in the early days of Christianity. The adjective “Roman” was not added until the time of King Henry VIII.

These quotes are not speaking of any denomination. They refer to the Catholic Church which is not a denomination at all.

And yes, there was only one Church at that time. There were some heretical sects even early on and by the 5th Century, there was more differentiation between the Eastern and Western “lungs” of the Church but they were still one.

The Catholic Church and the catholic church were the same entity in the early days of Christianity. The adjective “Roman” was not added until the time of King Henry VIII.

What if I told you that the Roman Catholic Church was calling itself “Roman” for hundreds of years before old Henry even showed up?

These quotes are not speaking of any denomination. They refer to the Catholic Church which is not a denomination at all.

They refer to the universal church but not specifically to the Roman Catholic Church.

And yes, there was only one Church at that time. There were some heretical sects even early on and by the 5th Century, there was more differentiation between the Eastern and Western “lungs” of the Church but they were still one.

Kind of. The early church was rife with factions and dissent. Nothing like the modicum of unity we see today. We are simply more honest today about what divides us.

 

[joe371]

I actually think this needs to be addressed as I’ve seen you bring it up twice; and that is the capitalization of “Catholic” as if they were capitalizing that word before.

Perhaps it merits its own thread? What do you think? Because we certainly know that catholic should be translated to universal, to which there is no problem. But Catholics tend to capitalize Catholic as if it was done by the Early Church Fathers.

One non-Catholic asked me to capitalize the C to make a distinction between the visible catholic church which I belong to and the “invisible” catholic church; you disagree with that person. Hmmm…I am rather torn…Should I listen to him or you?

 

[joe371]

The Catholic Church and the catholic church were the same entity in the early days of Christianity. The adjective “Roman” was not added until the time of King Henry VIII.

These quotes are not speaking of any denomination. They refer to the Catholic Church which is not a denomination at all.

And yes, there was only one Church at that time. There were some heretical sects even early on and by the 5th Century, there was more differentiation between the Eastern and Western “lungs” of the Church but they were still one.

As a former non-Catholic, that is what I eventually learned, much to my surprise…

 

[House_Harkonnen]

One non-Catholic asked me to capitalize the C to make a distinction between the visible catholic church which I belong to and the “invisible” catholic church; you disagree with that person. Hmmm…I am rather torn…Should I listen to him or you?

To us, because those writers were writing in Greek and Latin which contained no capital letters.

 

[joe371]

There has only ever been one holy, Catholic and apostolic church and it was one in both doctrine and leadership. If you read the Church fathers this is the case. During the times those were written, there was only the Catholic Church, and then there were heretics. In that letter of Ignatius if you read the whole letter he was saying that you have to be in communion with the bishop and you cannot partake of the eucharist with heretics “who deny that it is the flesh and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.” The writings of the early church fathers are rife with examples where the one church was appealed to on matters of doctrine, and where apostolic succession was cited as a certificate of authenticity of the Catholic Church.

If anyone tries to deny these claims they need to do better than misquoting the church fathers or the scripture in order to make it sound like they are saying something different than they actually are.

I would have provide the whole quote…not enough space…

 

[joe371]

House Harkonnen They refer to the universal church but not specifically to the Roman Catholic Church.

Universal means catholic (small c). You keep claiming that the Roman catholic church is not the universal church, and yet you show no proof. What they never refer to was a protestant church, all offshoots of the one catholic church, but you have no problem with that…

 

[joe371]

To us, because those writers were writing in Greek and Latin which contained no capital letters.

So ignore one non-catholic in favor of another non-catholic, namely you, regarding the following: One non-Catholic asked me to capitalize the C to make a distinction between the visible catholic church which I belong to and the “invisible” catholic church; you disagree with that person. Hmmm…I am rather torn…

OK, as long as you don’t insist that Jesus’ catholic church is the invisible body of all believers, regardless of denomination? If you make that claim then I am forced to capitalize the C.

 

[joe371]

To us, because those writers were writing in Greek and Latin which contained no capital letters.

Who are you referring to when you say - “us”?

 

[joe371]

Not the Roman Catholic Church, but the catholic church. All of these quotes of dishonestly and erroneously capitalized it as to make it seem like they were speaking of a particular modern day denomination.

The catholic church is a modern-day religion dating back to Jesus, who established the catholic church. From now on I will not be using the term Roman catholic church, as if it was a different church. Historical fact:

"The Catholic religion is the religion of the Catholic Church—i.e., that group of churches in communion with the pope. If a group isn’t in communion with the pope, it isn’t part of the Catholic Church.

Within the Catholic Church there are a number of individual churches, sometimes called rites. One of these is the Roman rite or Roman church. It includes most of the Catholics in the Western world. A Roman Catholic is a Catholic who is a member of the Roman rite.

There are many Catholics in the East who are not Roman Catholics, such as Maronite Catholics, Ukrainian Catholics, and Chaldean Catholics. These are all in communion with the pope, but they are not members of the Roman rite, so they are not Roman Catholics.

The Roman rite is not stricter than these other rights. They are equal. They all teach the same faith; it is only local customs that are different among them."

 

[House_Harkonnen]

So ignore one non-catholic in favor of another non-catholic, namely you, regarding the following: One non-Catholic asked me to capitalize the C to make a distinction between the visible catholic church which I belong to and the “invisible” catholic church; you disagree with that person. Hmmm…I am rather torn…

OK, as long as you don’t insist that Jesus’ catholic church is the invisible body of all believers, regardless of denomination? If you make that claim then I am forced to capitalize the C.

A strange false dichotomy. Either Latin and Greek have capital letters or they don’t.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Universal means catholic (small c). You keep claiming that the Roman catholic church is not the universal church, and yet you show no proof. What they never refer to was a protestant church, all offshoots of the one catholic church, but you have no problem with that…

Yes those folks were talking about the universal church. Not a particular denomination.

Also, what proof would suffice if I were to try to show you that the Roman Catholic Church is not the the universal church, only a part of it?

 

[joe371]

Yes those folks were talking about the universal church. Not a particular denomination.

Also, what proof would suffice if I were to try to show you that the Roman Catholic Church is not the the universal church, only a part of it?

The universal church is the catholic church.

It would prove what you are claiming, and I am all ears my friend.