Yes or no?

[House_Harkonnen]

The catholic church is a modern-day religion dating back to Jesus, who established the catholic church. From now on I will not be using the term Roman catholic church, as if it was a different church. Historical fact:

"The Catholic religion is the religion of the Catholic Church—i.e., that group of churches in communion with the pope. If a group isn’t in communion with the pope, it isn’t part of the Catholic Church.

Within the Catholic Church there are a number of individual churches, sometimes called rites. One of these is the Roman rite or Roman church. It includes most of the Catholics in the Western world. A Roman Catholic is a Catholic who is a member of the Roman rite.

There are many Catholics in the East who are not Roman Catholics, such as Maronite Catholics, Ukrainian Catholics, and Chaldean Catholics. These are all in communion with the pope, but they are not members of the Roman rite, so they are not Roman Catholics.

The Roman rite is not stricter than these other rights. They are equal. They all teach the same faith; it is only local customs that are different among them."

"The Catholic religion is the religion of the Catholic Church—i.e., that group of churches in communion with the pope. If a group isn’t in communion with the pope, it isn’t part of the Catholic Church.

In AD 537 when Justinian forced the pope to abdicate, then elected his own pope, was he a part of the Catholic Church? I thought the church was supposed to be unified in 537?

There are many Catholics in the East who are not Roman Catholics, such as Maronite Catholics, Ukrainian Catholics, and Chaldean Catholics. These are all in communion with the pope, but they are not members of the Roman rite, so they are not Roman Catholics.

Yes I am aware. I attended a Byzantine parish occasionally back when I was a Catholic.

The Roman rite is not stricter than these other rights. They are equal. They all teach the same faith; it is only local customs that are different among them.

Not equal. The Roman rite has consistently violated the eastern rites Sui Juris status. And I noticed some stark differences between the Byzantine and Roman rites.

 

[joe371]

A strange false dichotomy. Either Latin and Greek have capital letters or they don’t.

Latin and Greek have nothing to do with my reason for capitalizing catholic. I use it, to make a distinction between the “invisible” catholic church which all Christians, regardless of denomination, belong, and the visible catholic church in union with the Petrine office. It’s really quite harmless…

 

[House_Harkonnen]

The universal church is the catholic church.

It would prove what you are claiming, and I am all ears my friend.

The universal church is the catholic church.

Fine. But not the Roman Catholic Church.

It would prove what you are claiming, and I am all ears my friend.

What would suffice for proof?

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Latin and Greek have nothing to do with my reason for capitalizing catholic. I use it, to make a distinction between the “invisible” catholic church which all Christians, regardless of denomination, belong, and the visible catholic church in union with the Petrine office. It’s really quite harmless…

Then you have been adding to the original intent of the authors. Making your own little improvements to the text. That IS dishonest.

 

[joe371]

House Harkonnen;12207520]In AD 537 when Justinian forced the pope to abdicate, then elected his own pope, was he a part of the Catholic Church? I thought the church was supposed to be unified in 537?

The catholic church is one. By your logic the catholic church is not one if a member such as Nestorius, Arius or Justinian dissent. Makes no sense. The catholic church remains one in spite of dissension, thanks to God.

Emperor Justinain surely alienated the pope in Rome, going against the will of God, creating a schism (there have been a couple schisms but the church remained/remains one) and in AD 564, he adopted the heresy of Aphthartodocetism and tried to impose it. Before the matter was resolved, he died.

 

[joe371]

Then you have been adding to the original intent of the authors. Making your own little improvements to the text. That IS dishonest.

You are making no sense to me. I have already explained to you why I chose to capitalize the C.

Yoou are the one altering things, like replacing the word Christian, for catholic in the Nicene creed. What or who gives you the right to do that?

 

[House_Harkonnen]

The catholic church is one. By your logic the catholic church is not one if a member such as Nestorius, Arius or Justinian dissent. Makes no sense. The catholic church remains one in spite of dissension, thanks to God.

Emperor Justinain surely alienated the pope in Rome, going against the will of God, creating a schism (there have been a couple schisms but the church remained/remains one) and in AD 564, he adopted the heresy of Aphthartodocetism and tried to impose it. Before the matter was resolved, he died.

The catholic church is one. By your logic the catholic church is not one if a member such as Nestorius, Arius or Justinian dissent. Makes no sense. The catholic church remains one in spite of dissension, thanks to God.

Dissent? Alienated? He did much more than that. He went with an army, conquered Rome and parts surrounding, forced the pope off his throne under threat of death, appointed his own pope who shared his views, and had the popes for the next 250 or so years bow to the authority of the Emperor and Patriarch. Was he “in union” with that first pope he threatened to kill?

 

[House_Harkonnen]

You are making no sense to me. I have already explained to you why I chose to capitalize the C.

Yoou are the one altering things, like replacing the word Christian, for catholic in the Nicene creed. What or who gives you the right to do that?

Yoou are the one altering things, like replacing the word Christian, for catholic in the Nicene creed.

I have made no such alteration. The synod authorized that many years ago. Anyway, that is in line with the original intent of the authors as they were speaking of the Christian Church which is the catholic, universal church. Not any particular denomination.

Do you see anything biblically wrong with professing the one holy Christian and apostolic church?

 

[benjohnson]

I would say a qualified ‘no’ for the following reasons:

As I understand it the modern definition of ‘Catholic’ means to be in communion with the Bishop of Rome - who has universal jurisdiction.

Many of the early churches were scattered in the Orient, India, Africa - and many didn’t even know who the Bishop of Rome was and yet they were in communion with him. However, they didn’t understand the Bishop of Rome as having universal jurisdiction.

So, we’re comparing two different things - early Popes who were understood to have primacy and who engaged in Ecumenical Councils. And modern Popes who can declare Dogma on their own understanding (and let’s pray, are guided by the Holy Spirit.)

 

[joe371]

benjohnson;12207607]I would say a qualified ‘no’ for the following reasons:

As I understand it the modern definition of ‘Catholic’ means to be in communion with the Bishop of Rome - who has universal jurisdiction.

Many of the early churches were scattered in the Orient, India, Africa - and many didn’t even know who the Bishop of Rome was and yet they were in communion with him. However, they didn’t understand the Bishop of Rome as having universal jurisdiction.

Your claim: the early churches which were scattered in the Orient, India, Africa did not belong to the same catholic church that Ignatius, Polycarp and Augustine etc. belonged. Could you support that idea somehow? If so then I will buy that…

So, we’re comparing two different things - early Popes who were understood to have primacy and who engaged in Ecumenical Councils. And modern Popes who can declare Dogma on their own understanding (and let’s pray, are guided by the Holy Spirit.)

Actually this is off topic, but would make for a great thread that I would love to be a part of…

 

[adf417]

Yes those folks were talking about the universal church. Not a particular denomination.

Also, what proof would suffice if I were to try to show you that the Roman Catholic Church is not the the universal church, only a part of it?

Greetings House,
How about showing us the other catholic church in which Luther did not originate from. I think you will only see the Orthodox lung right?

Peace!!!

 

[joe371]

I have made no such alteration. The synod authorized that many years ago. Anyway, that is in line with the original intent of the authors as they were speaking of the Christian Church which is the catholic, universal church. Not any particular denomination.

Do you see anything biblically wrong with professing the one holy Christian and apostolic church?

Oh, I did not know that the synod had the authority to alter the Nicene creed?

Unlike you, and my use of a big C, I see nothing wrong with your church professing the one holy Christian and apostolic church.

 

[benjohnson]

Your claim: the early churches which were scattered in the Orient, India, Africa did not belong to the same catholic church that Ignatius, Polycarp and Augustine etc. belonged. Could you support that idea somehow? If so then I will buy that…

I didn’t mean to give that impression - t would say that while they were separated by place and language, they would have received each other as members of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

Actually this is off topic, but would make for a great thread that I would love to be a part of…

I don’t think it’s quite off topic - I contend that meaning of Pope has changed over the years - in fact, if you were to say Pope in the 3rd century, most would understand it to refer to the Patriarch of Alexandria.

Even without that bit of trivia - the Bishop of Rome’s role in the universal church has changed over they years - so our ancestors would have to understand the new definition first before we could claim to speak for them.

 

[joe371]

Dissent? Alienated? He did much more than that. He went with an army, conquered Rome and parts surrounding, forced the pope off his throne under threat of death, appointed his own pope who shared his views, and had the popes for the next 250 or so years bow to the authority of the Emperor and Patriarch. Was he “in union” with that first pope he threatened to kill?

No doubt Satan and all of hell, wants to destroy Jesus’ catholic church, and yet the catholic church survived, even to this day, and Justinian is just a passing thought. He never destroyed the catholic church…Jesus would not allow that…Justinain never adversely affected or altered doctrinal truth…he never altered the Petrine office and the true lineage of popes i.e. the catholic church is one, and Jesus gets all the credit. :thumbsup:Stick with the Petrine office and unity will prevail in spite of anything.

 

[Richard_White]

There is only One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church and that is the Catholic Church, which was founded by Our Lord and Savior, God the Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ about 2,000 years ago on the Rock of Saint Peter, our first Pope.

Jesus said Himself, “Thou art Peter, and on this Rock I will build My Church, and the gates of netherworld shall NEVER prevail against it.”

 

[joe371]

benjohnson;12207662]I didn’t mean to give that impression - t would say that while they were separated by place and language, they would have received each other as members of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

Oh, OK.

I don’t think it’s quite off topic - I contend that meaning of Pope has changed over the years - in fact, if you were to say Pope in the 3rd century, most would understand it to refer to the Patriarch of Alexandria.

I do not see the connection with the OP. Seriously, you should start a thread on that very interesting topic.

 

[robwar]

One non-Catholic asked me to capitalize the C to make a distinction between the visible catholic church which I belong to and the “invisible” catholic church; you disagree with that person. Hmmm…I am rather torn…Should I listen to him or you?

It’s one in the same Joe, so some non-Catholic asked you to capitalize the C to make some bogus distinction to make a bogus point? It’s one and the same and all of this is splitting hairs over nothing but some anti-Catholic ideas.

 

[joe371]

There is only One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church and that is the Catholic Church, which was founded by Our Lord and Savior, God the Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ about 2,000 years ago on the Rock of Saint Peter, our first Pope.

Jesus said Himself, “Thou art Peter, and on this Rock I will build My Church, and the gates of netherworld shall NEVER prevail against it.”

In other words, all of those catholic leaders mentioned in the OP belonged to the same catholic church.

 

[joe371]

It’s one in the same Joe, so some non-Catholic asked you to capitalize the C to make some bogus distinction to make a bogus point? It’s one and the same and all of this is splitting hairs over nothing but some anti-Catholic ideas.

:yup: I tried to play along, but am done placating…

 

[phil19034]

Even today, there is only one Holy Catholic Church. The “Roman Catholic Church” is only PART of the Catholic Church (yes, the largest part, but only part). “Roman Catholic” refers to the Roman Rite of the Latin Church.

The term became popular in English due to the Anglicans as a way to distinguish the fact that Catholics were loyal to the Pope and were viewed as being disloyal to the King of England.

The few times that “Roman Catholic” was even mentioned by Catholics before the time of Henry VIII was simply to differentiate the Roman Rite from other Latin and Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church (who are ALL in union with the Bishop of Rome).

Anyone who says anything else is simply wrong.

Another fact that people need to understand is that there were different Rites in the West before the Council of Trent made most Catholics use the Roman Rite. Norway, Sweeden, England, etc all had their own Rites and Uses. When the Pope suppressed the newer Rites in favor of the Roman Rite, I’m sure this angered some and lead to more revolts in the Northwestern Europe.

God Bless