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Nimzovik
Guest
Excuse me. Is that not why we have Judges? In terms of sentencing?
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L
LaSainte
Guest
From a pastoral level, we need to get into the minds of these people and help them to understand why we are all equal human beings. Susan B. Anthhony did it for women and Martin Luther King did it for blacks. Is it really that hard to understand that people need to have their misconceptions dispelled in an informative and compelling way in order to stop the perpetuation of violence against certain groups of people? What the hell was the point of the Civil Rights movement then?So, we need to pass laws to keep hateful people from killing those that they hate? From a PASTORAL level, what is the penalty for murder?It is ok to kill an unfaithful spouse?
Peace
Tim
No, it is obviously not ok to kill a spouse who you caught in bed with another man, but it is a crime of passion" for a reason. Temporary insanity is a defense for a reason. It means that an otherwise rational person made an irrational choice. A hate crime on the other hand, is NOT perpetrated by a rational person. It is perpetrated by an ignorant and hateful person who harbors these things deep in their heart. That person is much more dangerous and should be treated as such.
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LaSainte
Guest
It is, but it is also why we have different charges. Every killing of a human being isn’t Murder 1. You have different degrees of killing, from involuntary manslaughter, to reckless manslaughter, to murder, to pre-meditated murder. And you have different defenses for these crimes, such as temporary insanity or being abused, etc.Excuse me. Is that not why we have Judges?
Hate crimes are a beast of their own, because while not necessarily pre-meditated, there is an extraordinary amount of malice there that might not be present in say, a mugging gone wrong.
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Nimzovik
Guest
LaSainte wrote:
From a pastoral level, we need to get into the minds of these people and help them to understand why we are all equal human beings. Susan B. Anthhony did it for women and Martin Luther King did it for blacks. Is it really that hard to understand that people need to have their misconceptions dispelled in an informative and compelling way in order to stop the perpetuation of violence against certain groups of people? What the hell was the point of the Civil Rights movement then?
No, it is obviously not ok to kill a spouse who you caught in bed with another man, but it is a crime of passion" for a reason. Temporary insanity is a defense for a reason. It means that an otherwise rational person made an irrational choice. A hate crime on the other hand, is NOT perpetrated by a rational person. It is perpetrated by an ignorant and hateful person who harbors these things deep in their heart. That person is much more dangerous and should be treated as such.
Nimzovik Responds:
Okay. Let us not conflate here. The Civil Rights movement was initiated to assure, ahem,** equal** rights.
Society can** not** go down the slippery slope of giving others ‘more equaler’ rights of victim status.
From a pastoral level, we need to get into the minds of these people and help them to understand why we are all equal human beings. Susan B. Anthhony did it for women and Martin Luther King did it for blacks. Is it really that hard to understand that people need to have their misconceptions dispelled in an informative and compelling way in order to stop the perpetuation of violence against certain groups of people? What the hell was the point of the Civil Rights movement then?
No, it is obviously not ok to kill a spouse who you caught in bed with another man, but it is a crime of passion" for a reason. Temporary insanity is a defense for a reason. It means that an otherwise rational person made an irrational choice. A hate crime on the other hand, is NOT perpetrated by a rational person. It is perpetrated by an ignorant and hateful person who harbors these things deep in their heart. That person is much more dangerous and should be treated as such.
Nimzovik Responds:
Okay. Let us not conflate here. The Civil Rights movement was initiated to assure, ahem,** equal** rights.
Society can** not** go down the slippery slope of giving others ‘more equaler’ rights of victim status.
N
Nimzovik
Guest
Ahhhh… now you are making** my** point! Penalize the perpetrator for being a gang banger or a Klanner! Do not give the victim more status because he is Gay or what ever!It is, but it is also why we have different charges. Every killing of a human being isn’t Murder 1. You have different degrees of killing, from involuntary manslaughter, to reckless manslaughter, to murder, to pre-meditated murder. And you have different defenses for these crimes, such as temporary insanity or being abused, etc.
Hate crimes are a beast of their own, because while not necessarily pre-meditated, there is an extraordinary amount of malice there that might not be present in say, a mugging gone wrong.
Can you see it now?
Once one does that, one has just violated equality for all!
F
fix
Guest
It is very dangerous. It is all ideology and politics.Of course hate crimes exist. Hate crimes have been committed against gays, against blacks, against Jews, against Catholics, against gypsies, and numerous others. Strictly speaking a hate crime need not even refer to a particular group. One person might be assaulted and murdered by another simply because of personal hatred.
Crimes should be punished as crimes of assault, murder, aggravated assault, as the case may be. There are even particular penalties to be applied to crimes commited in a particularly heinous manner.
But the ‘hate crime’ category is a dangerous category. Proving a crime is one thing, proving motivation is another, and the consequences of the crime are the same.
Not only that, but hate crime laws often lead to ‘hate speech’ laws, where particular kinds of speech are deemed to be ‘hate speech’ and can be criminally or civilly prosecuted. This puts freedom of speech at risk. One might even be prosecuted for publicly reading certain passages of the bible.
When ‘hate speech’ is a crime, can ‘thought crime’ be far behind?
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Nimzovik
Guest
Precisely.
N
Nimzovik
Guest
My my! What an apparent oversimplification!This is far from the only case. Just 35mi from where I live two young men shot an older homosexual to death, and that is just one case I know of personally. When the case came to trial in Midland TX, home of President Bush the two played the “gay card” for their defense and got off with just a slap to the wrist.
The man who shot Milk Never worked for him. He was a former policeman on city council as well. He too played the “gay card” and also got off with a slap to the wrist.
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andrewstx
Guest
Show of hands please. How many here really think they are equal to a homosexual drug dealer?If we are all equal, why is there more punishment for a so-called hate crime?
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Nimzovik
Guest
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh… Your wording leaves a lot to be clarified…
Oh wait. This is* humor* right?
Oh wait. This is* humor* right?
O
Orogeny
Guest
Except “hate crimes” mean that we are not equal, that some people are worth more than others.From a pastoral level, we need to get into the minds of these people and help them to understand why we are all equal human beings.
It certainly wasn’t to make some people more valuable than others.What the hell was the point of the Civil Rights movement then?
Ok, should someone who kills a gay man because he is gay get a tougher sentence than a man who plans and executes a rape/murder of a heterosexual female? Is a gay man’s life worth more than a heterosexual woman’s life? Under the “hate crime” mentality, it clearly is.A hate crime on the other hand, is NOT perpetrated by a rational person. It is perpetrated by an ignorant and hateful person who harbors these things deep in their heart. That person is much more dangerous and should be treated as such.
Peace
Tim
S
SwizzleStick
Guest
Crimes should be punished as crimes of whatever the case may be without the status of the victim becoming a factor because that particular status suits a particular agenda.Show of hands please. How many here really think they are equal to a homosexual drug dealer?
O
Orogeny
Guest
Did *your *hand go up?Show of hands please. How many here really think they are equal to a homosexual drug dealer?
Peace
Tim
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Nimzovik
Guest
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…
When Gay activists violate law and intimidate, and assault (like the Femen do for example) it should be a ‘Hate Crime’ too, then, right?
Hmmmmmmmmmmm… Rape is a crime of hate often. So when gay men rape men in prisons (often to establish ‘turf’ and dominance of their gang) that should be a Hate Crime too, yes? What about that eh?
When Gay activists violate law and intimidate, and assault (like the Femen do for example) it should be a ‘Hate Crime’ too, then, right?
Hmmmmmmmmmmm… Rape is a crime of hate often. So when gay men rape men in prisons (often to establish ‘turf’ and dominance of their gang) that should be a Hate Crime too, yes? What about that eh?
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sw85
Guest
But the reason we punish those two differently is because there is a difference in culpability on the part of the murderer, not because of anything to do with the nature of the victim. “Hate crime” doesn’t touch on culpability; it may or may not be premeditated. In what way does the motivation of “hate,” then, merit a more substantial punishment?For the same reason that there is more punishment for a pre-meditated murder than for a crime of passion.
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JimG
Guest
Or maybe it’s a hate crime if a radical Occupy Wall Street protester assaults a rich guy because he hates rich guys as a class.
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andrewstx
Guest
What were you expecting. court transcripts? I was nearby in the Midland case, but still knew none of the principals. I had heard about the victim, he was notorious in the area but still did not deserve being shot.My my! What an apparent oversimplification!
The shooter of Milk’s identity is at least near common knowledge. Needless to say an Irish Catholic policeman would have never dreamed of working for a Jewish camera store in the notorious “gay district”.
The hand slapping is just on record for anyone to see. Huge riots broke out in SF when the verdict came out.
The man who shot Milk shot another, himself.
That better?
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Nimzovik
Guest
Indeed!
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andrewstx
Guest
Just as one human to another, yes I think we are equal. Though I have never been a drug dealer heaven forbid.Did *your *hand go up?
Peace
Tim
N
Nimzovik
Guest
San Francisco eh? Hmmm…What were you expecting. court transcripts? I was nearby in the Midland case, but still knew none of the principals. I had heard about the victim, he was notorious in the area but still did not deserve being shot.
The shooter of Milk’s identity is at least near common knowledge. Needless to say an Irish Catholic policeman would have never dreamed of working for a Jewish camera store in the notorious “gay district”.
The hand slapping is just on record for anyone to see. Huge riots broke out in SF when the verdict came out.
The man who shot Milk shot another, himself.
That better?
No it is not better. You have links to reputable sources?
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