Yet again -- OSAS and faith alone

[greggy53]

I believe a Catholic understanding of justification is declared at the end of the Christian life. Is my understanding correct? The Catholic understanding is by grace alone through a cooperative sense between God and man to receive final justification based on personal righteousness done through graces dispensed by the Church, correct?

No you are not correct. Justification, or salvation begins with the waters of Baptism. For many Catholics this is when we are infants. It is a life long process and struggle. As a Catholic school boy I was taught that our purpose was to love God with all our hearts and minds. We profess that he was crucified, and died for our sins, and on the third day he arose from the dead, and ascended into Heaven. We live in communion with Him through the sacraments and His Church. Which he established.

 

[JonNC]

As a follower of Jesus I believe that if you are called by the grace of God to be a believer and you are saved by your faith, his holy spirit “seals” you.

FY,
Just curious, what do you mean by “if you are called”? It sounds like you believe God does not offer His grace to be a believer to everyone.

Jon

 

[2nd_Adam]

No you are not correct. Justification, or salvation begins with the waters of Baptism. For many Catholics this is when we are infants. It is a life long process and struggle. As a Catholic school boy I was taught that our purpose was to love God with all our hearts and minds. We profess that he was crucified, and died for our sins, and on the third day he arose from the dead, and ascended into Heaven. We live in communion with Him through the sacraments and His Church. Which he established.

I understand the intital justification is through water baptism. But once you loose that initial justification, it is received again through the sacraments dispensed by the church, correct. The final justification is what I am making a distinction between historic Protestant theology and official Roman Catholic theology. A Catholic is actual made just for the sinner to enter Heaven, correct?

 

[Follow_Yeshua]

The Epistle of ST Paul to the Galatians which you quoted explains how we live new lives in faith in Christ, and that we should not cast away his grace by relying on the law. It does not tell us that we **cannot **disregard or throw away his grace, and our faith… Indeed by warning us it must be because we have the free will to do so. If anything this scripture is a good testimony against OSAS.

If I read you correctly: you believe that you are saved by “faith alone” even though the scriptures say specifically that we are not saved by faith alone. Do you find this belief outside of scripture in some church teaching perhaps? And when does the “spirit enter you”, and how do you know it?

When you say Amen to something you are saying you agree.

Romans
10
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Yes I know what Amen means. I was agreeing with Ephesians 2:8
and I whole heatedly agree with that verse!

What is the grave danger that I believe in Salvation through his grace alone and not how I act?

 

[greggy53]

I think the problem with American Christianity is that we tend to think it is an individual event between God and us personally. However, Christianity did not start with you and God and your personal reading of the Scriptures. Historic Christianity is God’s story of redemptive history throughout the ages. I think modern Christianity have turned professing Christians into Gnostics in a way. So, in your own beliefs, tell me why you are right with God. Christianity is really one body made up of redeemed sinners where there is no individuality. Christ is the head and believers are His body (the church).

You are half right here though the problem with individuality is a Protestant phenomena. Historic Christianity is the story God’s plan for salvation through his Church. Scripture tells us, indeed Christ’s own words tell us that the Church and Christ are one. He established one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church.

 

[greggy53]

I understand the intital justification is through water baptism. But once you loose that initial justification, it is received again through the sacraments dispensed by the church, correct. The final justification is what I am making a distinction between historic Protestant theology and official Roman Catholic theology. A Catholic is actual made just for the sinner to enter Heaven, correct?

Who says we have to loose it? Through Baptism we become part of the body of Christ. The sacrament of holy communion was instituted by our Lord, and given to the Church. All of the sacraments are given to us by God and the Church administers them by the authority He gave to it.

A Catholic is actual made just for the sinner to enter Heaven, correct?

I don’t understand what you are asking here, please clarify.

 

[greggy53]

Romans
10
8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

So, what you are trying to tell me here is that once we profess Christ, and become saved we cannot become un-saved.? Everything in the above scripture is true, and Catholics embrace it. But nowhere there does it say we cannot loose our salvation. On the other hand the writers of the NT consistantly tell us to be on guard against various heresies, and other snares. If salvation once obtained cannot be lost then why worry about it? You won’t ever sin again?, or it won’t matter if you do?

Yes I know what Amen means. I was agreeing with Ephesians 2:8
and I whole heatedly agree with that verse!?

I’m glad we both do. I pray for my, and my families salvation regularly. I hope you do too!

What is the grave danger that I believe in Salvation through his grace alone and not how I act?

Wait a minute, didn’t you say before that you believed in Salvation through faith alone, not Grace???

 

[2nd_Adam]

You are half right here though the problem with individuality is a Protestant phenomena. Historic Christianity is the story God’s plan for salvation through his Church. Scripture tells us, indeed Christ’s own words tell us that the Church and Christ are one. He established one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church.

I appreciate Catholics for the value they have for church history and God’s unfolding plan for redemption for sinners. I too embrace the historic creeds that were formulated before the church split. I believe that the true church is the remnant of God which He creates for His own good pleasure. I believe the one holy Catholic apostolic Church is a spiritual reality. I believe church tradition is valuable but not authoritative over and above the Scriptures. The individuality of modern day Christianity is not a good thing… It is very gnostic when you think about it… creating God to any way that you personally want to create him to be, even through Scirpture twisting.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Who says we have to loose it? Through Baptism we become part of the body of Christ. The sacrament of holy communion was instituted by our Lord, and given to the Church. All of the sacraments are given to us by God and the Church administers them by the authority He gave to it.

I don’t understand what you are asking here, please clarify.

Are you saying that you never commited a mortal sin where you have to be restored through the sacarments to a state of justification? I think a Catholic enters Heaven through being made righteous as compared to being credited with the righteousness of Christ. Therefore, purgatory is where you will purge sins that still remain at your death, correct? I honesty want to understand the Catholic way of salvation through Christ and be able to represent it correct.

 

[Follow_Yeshua]

So, what you are trying to tell me here is that once we profess Christ, and become saved we cannot become un-saved.? Everything in the above scripture is true, and Catholics embrace it. But nowhere there does it say we cannot loose our salvation. On the other hand the writers of the NT consistantly tell us to be on guard against various heresies, and other snares. If salvation once obtained cannot be lost then why worry about it? You won’t ever sin again?, or it won’t matter if you do?

I’m glad we both do. I pray for my, and my families salvation regularly. I hope you do too!

Wait a minute, didn’t you say before that you believed in Salvation through faith alone, not Grace???

Meaning his salvation is a free Gift; an undeserving gift at that!
My faith in Jesus the Christ is what saved me. It is nothing special I did but it was coming to the realization that

1. Looking at the wonders of our world and how we were made led me to lean towards intelligent design.
2. Growing up in Catholic family and leading me to CCD to learn about God
3. Reading the bible wanting to learn more about who Jesus was. Because the way I was raised (Mexican Catholic,) Jesus was truely not the focal point of belief. In fact he was a leading actor in a cast of supporting characters. Somehow I was not comfortable with that
4. After reading the Word. Realizing that he (Jesus) is the only character and no other man or woman who walked the earth could do nothing for me in a spiritual manner unless they were alive and prayed for me.
   5)When I found out his salvation was a gift from only him. I accepted his work on the cross to declare me not guilty and that he was my only mediation between me and the father. I do believe that was when he spirit entered me.
5. I believe that his spirit has “sealed me” because my heart and belief were in the right condition not to ever want to turn away from him and now I await the day when he will appear with his reward with him.
6. I listen to the teachings of men but do not subscribe to everything I hear. I wait and listen for the Sheppard’s voice. I know his voice and he knows me.
7. When I fall away and focus on the things of this world. I have the choice to do so and when I do it is no longer I who sin but it is the sin that still is part of my carnal state. I try to be good and to do the right thing but I believe that his spirit is ultimately in control of my life.

Sorry I got a little windy there. I hope you can see where I come from on my beliefs. They are biblical but maybe not according to your views. And I respect that.

 

[greggy53]

I appreciate Catholics for the value they have for church history and God’s unfolding plan for redemption for sinners. I too embrace the historic creeds that were formulated before the church split. I believe that the true church is the remnant of God which He creates for His own good pleasure. I believe the one holy Catholic apostolic Church is a spiritual reality. I believe church tradition is valuable but not authoritative over and above the Scriptures. The individuality of modern day Christianity is not a good thing… It is very gnostic when you think about it… creating God to any way that you personally want to create him to be, even through Scirpture twisting.

Do you believe then that the scripture has the final authority over the Church?
If so where in the scriptures does it say that?
If so then who has the authority to interpret the scriptures?

When you say the Church split. Do you mean the reformation? or the great Schism?
I don’t believe the Church has split. The heresies and their deceivers have come out from within it just as the writers of the NT warned us they would. The Catholic Church is as united as it had ever been. I don’t know that the Orthodox Church is considered heretical. hence the word Schism.

 

[greggy53]

Are you saying that you never commited a mortal sin where you have to be restored through the sacarments to a state of justification? Therefore, purgatory is where you will purge sins that still remain at your death, correct? I honesty want to understand the Catholic way of salvation through Christ and be able to represent it correct.

I have sinned, make no mistake about that, and by repenting and confessing my sin God has forgiven. The Sacrament of reconciliation restores us to a state of Grace. I have never heard the word “justification” used in that sense. That doesn’t mean we HAVE to commit mortal sin. There have been saints who never committed mortal sin. Yet any sin damages our relationship with Christ. Purgatory is the cleansing of our imperfections, defects resulting from that sin. Of course our sins are forgiven so the souls that experience the cleansing fire of Purgatory are assured a place in Heaven. That is my best explanation. I am a layman, and do not have the theological background, or education to be considered an expert by any means. You might want to find a local priest to talk to.

I think a Catholic enters Heaven through being made righteous as compared to being credited with the righteousness of Christ. .

Again I am not a theologian, and I think we are treading a fine theological line here. We know that we are redeemed by Jesus Christ, and nothing of our own doing. So then it follows I think we could not have any righteousness on our own part. I could be wrong about it. We should ask a priest this one

 

[greggy53]

Meaning his salvation is a free Gift; an undeserving gift at that!
My faith in Jesus the Christ is what saved me. It is nothing special I did but it was coming to the realization that

1. Looking at the wonders of our world and how we were made led me to lean towards intelligent design.
2. Growing up in Catholic family and leading me to CCD to learn about God
3. Reading the bible wanting to learn more about who Jesus was. Because the way I was raised (Mexican Catholic,) Jesus was truely not the focal point of belief. In fact he was a leading actor in a cast of supporting characters. Somehow I was not comfortable with that
4. After reading the Word. Realizing that he (Jesus) is the only character and no other man or woman who walked the earth could do nothing for me in a spiritual manner unless they were alive and prayed for me.
   5)When I found out his salvation was a gift from only him. I accepted his work on the cross to declare me not guilty and that he was my only mediation between me and the father. I do believe that was when he spirit entered me.
5. I believe that his spirit has “sealed me” because my heart and belief were in the right condition not to ever want to turn away from him and now I await the day when he will appear with his reward with him.
6. I listen to the teachings of men but do not subscribe to everything I hear. I wait and listen for the Sheppard’s voice. I know his voice and he knows me.
7. When I fall away and focus on the things of this world. I have the choice to do so and when I do it is no longer I who sin but it is the sin that still is part of my carnal state. I try to be good and to do the right thing but I believe that his spirit is ultimately in control of my life.

Sorry I got a little windy there. I hope you can see where I come from on my beliefs. They are biblical but maybe not according to your views. And I respect that.

I want to tell you that though I may have gone after you about your theology. I never would question your salvation. We have much in common with our beliefs, some important ones to be sure. If we can both stand under the banner of Jesus Christ who died for our sins then I honestly believe you are my brother or sister

 

[Follow_Yeshua]

I want to tell you that though I may have gone after you about your theology. I never would question your salvation. We have much in common with our beliefs, some important ones to be sure. If we can both stand under the banner of Jesus Christ who died for our sins then I honestly believe you are my brother or sister

It truly saddens me that we have to be separated by our beliefs on certain issues. I have great love for my Catholic brethren (man I was there!) I can see your a very good person and you are 100% right. We must both stand under the banner of Jesus.

I’m Brandon by the way. Yes! A Mexican named Brandon! Ha!

 

[OHCAC]

I was never a filthy rag. I have always been a beloved creation of God. I may have some dirt on me, and even perhaps a few rips. But God always washes me and repairs those tears. I am cloth, continually being restored to the original state of good repair and cleanliness that God intended for me in the beginning. Still, its my job to make sure the tears and stains don’t make me completely ruined and unusable. That will get me thrown into the garbage bag that is hell. I may need to go through purgatorial washing machines and seamstresses, but I will go to heaven, if the damage I do to myself is not too great, and I keep myself as clean and as rip-free as possible.

Well said!

 

[greggy53]

To 2nd Adam, I would really like to continue our conversation from yesterday. I thought we were communicating well and coming to agreement on some important issues concerning the faith.

Do you believe then that the scripture has the final authority over the Church?
If so where in the scriptures does it say that?
If so then who has the authority to interpret the scriptures?

When you say the Church split. Do you mean the reformation? or the great Schism?
I don’t believe the Church has split. The heresies and their deceivers have come out from within it just as the writers of the NT warned us they would. The Catholic Church is as united as it had ever been. I don’t know that the Orthodox Church is considered heretical. hence the word Schism.

 

[traillius]

Meaning his salvation is a free Gift; an undeserving gift at that!
My faith in Jesus the Christ is what saved me. It is nothing special I did but it was coming to the realization that

1. Looking at the wonders of our world and how we were made led me to lean towards intelligent design.
2. Growing up in Catholic family and leading me to CCD to learn about God
3. Reading the bible wanting to learn more about who Jesus was. Because the way I was raised (Mexican Catholic,) Jesus was truely not the focal point of belief. In fact he was a leading actor in a cast of supporting characters. Somehow I was not comfortable with that
4. After reading the Word. Realizing that he (Jesus) is the only character and no other man or woman who walked the earth could do nothing for me in a spiritual manner unless they were alive and prayed for me.
   5)When I found out his salvation was a gift from only him. I accepted his work on the cross to declare me not guilty and that he was my only mediation between me and the father. I do believe that was when he spirit entered me.
5. I believe that his spirit has “sealed me” because my heart and belief were in the right condition not to ever want to turn away from him and now I await the day when he will appear with his reward with him.
6. I listen to the teachings of men but do not subscribe to everything I hear. I wait and listen for the Sheppard’s voice. I know his voice and he knows me.
7. When I fall away and focus on the things of this world. I have the choice to do so and when I do it is no longer I who sin but it is the sin that still is part of my carnal state. I try to be good and to do the right thing but I believe that his spirit is ultimately in control of my life.

Sorry I got a little windy there. I hope you can see where I come from on my beliefs. They are biblical but maybe not according to your views. And I respect that.

Everything that you believe is 95% catholic. the remaining 5% is a misunderstanding of christian belief, and not your fault.

 

[Tomster]

there’s a difference between being saved and a conversion experience. Pop-evangelicals actually think they are the same!

No one is really saved until he has passed beyond sickness, death, judgement, and resurrection, and hears that his most joyful voice, “come, o blessed of my father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”

then you are saved.

exactly!

 

[traillius]

to use a nascar analogy, starting the race does not mean you finish the race. You have to get through the entire race to win, or even finish.

 

[MrS]

I have found… after decades of discussion with our separated brethren… that the underlying difference is often NOT built on OSAS, or S.F., or S.S. … but a rather sublet misunderstanding of the Doctrine of the Atonement.

If non-Catholics had a better understanding… all Scriptural… they wold come to see the strong reasonableness of the Catholic position from Scripture.

And many would see the flaws that are the fruits of the reformers who doth "protest’ too much.,

.