Yet another hand holding question

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BSHoop96 said:
I love my parish but they do hold hands. I would prefer not to and of course I certainly don’t have to. I never initiate but I watch from the corner of my eye and if someone reaches out for my hand I will take it as I would not want my neighbor to feel as if I were rebuffing him/her and I can almost guarantee they would feel that way. Now many will say this is the chicken’s way out but hand-holding at the Our Father is not something I will make an issue out of at the expense of hurting someone unnecessarily.
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This reminds me of the people that have moved responding to ‘we lift up our hearts’ with raising their hands… :cool: Um… who told you to do that? But, because these are ‘nice’ people, they respond by doing the same.

Sheeple!:tsktsk:
 
Apryl said:
This reminds me of the people that have moved responding to ‘we lift up our hearts’ with raising their hands… :cool: Um… who told you to do that? But, because these are ‘nice’ people, they respond by doing the same.

Sheeple!:tsktsk:
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Apryl, not quite the same. I do not and would not make the gestures of the priest as that has been spoken to.

The norm in our parish is to hold hands. Since the magisterium has not spoken against I will do it if someone approaches me. If you feel it’s worth hurting someone’s feelings…🤷

I even spoke to my priest about two things, hand-holding and, I’m almost scared to bring this up, communion line blessings (my husband is in RCIA). I was uncomfortable telling my husband he could receive a blessing in the communion line. Our priest said while he would not deny someone a blessing, it was started spontaneously, not started by the magisterium and it was a “communion line”, not a blessing line. He said this in a very charitable way, not a harsh way. Needless to say, my husband does *not * go up for a blessing. He said hand-holding was the same, not started by the magisterium but has become very common and I certainly did not have to. In light of the fact that my parish seems to be a hand-holding parish I participate.

Indicidentally, he said he will speak of this in RCIA. My hope is that little by little people will be taught correctly as they come into the Church. I think the penduluum is beginning to swing back to a more conversative Church and that maybe individual Bishops will start to speak of these things in their dioceses and then the priests can speak of them and a few changes might result! 👍
 
BSHoop96 said:
I love my parish but they do hold hands. I would prefer not to and of course I certainly don’t have to. I never initiate but I watch from the corner of my eye and if someone reaches out for my hand I will take it as I would not want my neighbor to feel as if I were rebuffing him/her and I can almost guarantee they would feel that way. Now many will say this is the chicken’s way out but hand-holding at the Our Father is not something I will make an issue out of at the expense of hurting someone unnecessarily.
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Now why would they feel that way? If you clasp your hands together in prayer and lower your head, do you really think they would feel hurt or rejected? That really makes no sense at all.

If so then I would venture to say that they need to grow up a little bit.

As an aside if you have to peek out of the corner of your eye to see what the others are doing your mind isn’t in the right place. In Mass your mind should be focused on God, not the guy sitting next to you.
 
The “we lift up our hearts” things where people raise their hands up seems to be done some folks at my parish. Anytime the priest says The Lord be with you, or Lift up your hearts etc These folks will raise up their Hand in response. I just keep my hands folded in the traditional way or I have a Sunday missal in my hands.
 
BSHoop96 said:
Apryl, not quite the same. I do not and would not make the gestures of the priest as that has been spoken to.
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I’m glad that you wouldn’t;) but there are, sadly, a LOT of others that do. Again, not trying to be bad or difficult, but they see Mrs. Johnson doing it, and Ol’ Mr. Davis does it, so it *must be right, right??? 👍 (NO!)
BSHoop96 said:
The norm in our parish is to hold hands. Since the magisterium has not spoken against I will do it if someone approaches me. If you feel it’s worth hurting someone’s feelings
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Like you, I prefer to not hurt someone else’s feeings… esp when it’s during the time we should be mending fences and moving into communion 😊

I don’t think the point of those that have spoken to the hand holding during the Lord’s Prayer has been to hurt any one else’s feelings, or to encourage any one else to hurt any one else’s feelings, but to point out some things that have been happening that may not have been the most correct, with the idea that our Brothers and Sisters in the pews need our love and compassion, and sometimes, our direction. As they come into the church, or mover further into the church, the best way to help to make the stronger is if we move in the right direction.:cool:

Wouldn’t you agree?
 
BSHoop96 said:
I love my parish but they do hold hands. I would prefer not to and of course I certainly don’t have to. I never initiate but I watch from the corner of my eye and if someone reaches out for my hand I will take it as I would not want my neighbor to feel as if I were rebuffing him/her and I can almost guarantee they would feel that way. Now many will say this is the chicken’s way out but hand-holding at the Our Father is not something I will make an issue out of at the expense of hurting someone unnecessarily.
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Here is a brilliant way to get around this and no hurt feelings: Attend a Tridentine Latin Mass. No hand holding, no “kiss of peace” embraces, distractions, etc.
 
I don’t hold hands with anyone who has his hands folded or arms down at sides. I will try to hold hands with someone who has his hands up and going in my direction, so I suggest you not do that.
 
Sit far away from the others, then just give them a little wave instead–just kidding.😉

But seriously, could you sit a few rows away from the hand holders? That would make it pretty hard for them to hold hands with you, unless they’re really zealous on the hand holding thing.
 
Apryl said:
I’m glad that you wouldn’t;) but there are, sadly, a LOT of others that do. Again, not trying to be bad or difficult, but they see Mrs. Johnson doing it, and Ol’ Mr. Davis does it, so it *must be right, right??? 👍 (NO!)

Like you, I prefer to not hurt someone else’s feeings… esp when it’s during the time we should be mending fences and moving into communion 😊

I don’t think the point of those that have spoken to the hand holding during the Lord’s Prayer has been to hurt any one else’s feelings, or to encourage any one else to hurt any one else’s feelings, but to point out some things that have been happening that may not have been the most correct, with the idea that our Brothers and Sisters in the pews need our love and compassion, and sometimes, our direction. As they come into the church, or mover further into the church, the best way to help to make the stronger is if we move in the right direction.:cool:

Wouldn’t you agree?
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Of course. I came to my decision after I read several posters who told their experience of people not taking it well when someone wouldn’t hold their hand. I decided since it is the norm in my parish that I would not initiate but would respond.

The decision about not going up for a blessing is easier as that does not put you in the position of doing anything that can be taken as a rejection by your fellow parisioner. Of course, if and when, the magisterium speaks to this (hand-holding) I will be more than happy to lead the way. 😉
 
Why oh why do Catholics now ignore so many of the required liturgical actions - such as genuflectiing when passing in front of a tabernacle, bowing at the Incarnatus during the Credo etc - yet persist in making up their own personal “liturgical” actions?

No, you should not hold hands during the Our Father. If the 2000 year wisdom of Holy Mother Church has not EVER directed that it should be done, then don’t let some amateur liturgist start making you do it! Also it is quite wrong for the laity to hold their hands up during the Our Father, because this is a priestly action meant to be done by the celebrant.
 
I personally don’t like doing it. To me, in this society, it’s an artificial accretion.

I don’t feel uncomfortable, particularly, holding the hand of a woman (I’m a man) who is at least ten years older than I am. That’s not strange, as older women are somewhat given to that in this society, (though it might be regional) and it’s not considered weird to do it.

I cannot abide holding the hand of another man’s wife, and I just won’t do it. Under no circumstance would I consider doing it outside the Mass, so why should I be obliged to do at Mass something I would never do outside Mass, even with a good friend?

I don’t feel right holding the hand of an unmarried woman either, particularly a young one. I would never, ever, ever do that outside the Mass.

That goes quadruple for holding a man’s hand. Maybe somewhere on earth (Saudi Arabia, I guess) men hold hands. In this society it’s considered totally out of the way except in a certain perverse circumstance, and I won’t do it, no matter what.

In the outside world, nobody holds the hand of a child that isn’t his own relative. It’s considered exceptionally creepy to do it. I can see no reason why I should feel obliged to overcome that cultural taboo (with which, frankly, I agree) just because I am in church.

So, I just don’t do it other than occasionally under the “old lady” exception. But most older women don’t want to do it anyway, and I would be the last person on earth to force it on them.

In the parish we attend, there was all kinds of hand-holding, raising hands in what I am told is the “orans” position and so on. Then one day, the priest announced that, while we could do that, we were not obliged to do it. The very next Mass, almost nobody did, and it hasn’t come back, either. It seems to be slowly dying out entirely.

That suggests to me that most people are no more comfortable with it than I am, but do it because they think they’re expected to do it.

Having said all that, I don’t have a problem with the handshakes at the “kiss of peace”. That is considered normal in this society, breaks no cultural taboos, and is considered a friendly, but not intimate, gesture.
 
Nice word Ridgerunner - accretion. After blowing the dust off my dictionary to find out what it meant, I’d say it’s almost a tailor -made fit the way you used it.

You’re 2 for 2 in the “teaching me” category today. I didn’t know what the “orans” position meant either…don’t assume/use that position during the Our Father myself (keep 'em clasped) and I was never able to figure out why others (not presiders) do it. I found this link:

adoremus.org/1103OransPosture.html
 
I have always been curious as to where the “orans position” came from. Was it from support groups, or the evangelicals? What ever happened to when I was little which was only back in 1990 and we were taught in Kindergarten to Fold your hands together with your thumbs crossed when praying.
 
rjs1 said:
Why oh why do Catholics now ignore so many of the required liturgical actions - such as genuflectiing when passing in front of a tabernacle, bowing at the Incarnatus during the Credo etc - yet persist in making up their own personal “liturgical” actions?

No, you should not hold hands during the Our Father. If the 2000 year wisdom of Holy Mother Church has not EVER directed that it should be done, then don’t let some amateur liturgist start making you do it! Also it is quite wrong for the laity to hold their hands up during the Our Father, because this is a priestly action meant to be done by the celebrant.
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Yes, I believe we have already covered that.
 
rjs1 said:
Why oh why do Catholics now ignore so many of the required liturgical actions - such as genuflectiing when passing in front of a tabernacle, bowing at the Incarnatus during the Credo etc - yet persist in making up their own personal “liturgical” actions?
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I feel almost Baptist when I say :amen: !
 
Apryl said:
I feel almost Baptist when I say :amen: !
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:rotfl: :rotfl:

Something interesting I saw read. Someone on another thread just posted about how a visiting priest set some ground rules for them before he began. He said “no hand-holding during Our Father” and do not respond to him with arms raised at the “and also with you” as these things were added by the laity and we needed to obey even in the small things, etc. When I read that I was thinking 👍 👍

Unfortunately, it was spoiled a little bit when the poster then went on to say how the priest went on and on about how great an unapproved, controversial apparition was and how they should visit. 🤷
 
BSHoop96 said:
:rotfl: :rotfl:

Something interesting I saw read. Someone on another thread just posted about how a visiting priest set some ground rules for them before he began. He said “no hand-holding during Our Father” and do not respond to him with arms raised at the “and also with you” as these things were added by the laity and we needed to obey even in the small things, etc. When I read that I was thinking 👍 👍

Unfortunately, it was spoiled a little bit when the poster then went on to say how the priest went on and on about how great an unapproved, controversial apparition was and how they should visit. 🤷
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One doesn’t have to be right in all things in order to be right in some things.
 
NeedImprovement said:
. I didn’t know what the “orans” position meant either…don’t assume/use that position during the Our Father myself (keep 'em clasped) and I was never able to figure out why others (not presiders) do it. I found this link:

adoremus.org/1103OransPosture.html
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Oops! Blew my last post.

Interesting article, NeedImprovement, and I thank you for contributing it. What an odd basis for adopting the “orans position”! If your citation is correct, it is a gesture often used by African-Americans in the U.S. during worship, and the bishops thought it would be insensitive to exclude it.

Well, of course, most Catholics in the U.S. are not African-Americans, though I don’t begrudge African-Americans doing it if they wish. However, I come from stodgy old, non-hand-holding European forebears (Maybe southern Italians do it. One might suspect them of it. I don’t know. But that’s not my ancestery) among whom holding hands bespeaks familial or romantic intimacy only. (A major exception to the “familial” hand-holding being one’s son after about age four. Most won’t put up with it after that.)

As with some of the other, stranger things that have crept into the Liturgy here and there, (e.g., liturgical dance, rock bands, “kumbaya”, standing in circles, “encounter” etc) a stodgy fellow like me can be tempted to suspect a counter-cultural motivation to some of it. Some in the U.S. Church just plain don’t LIKE Western Civilization, and don’t make much secret of their desire to shove us down some other path, like so many blind puppies.

But whatever the motivation, I think it’s a mistake to try to force things onto a congregation that are otherwise culturally alien to it, so long as no significant religious purpose requires it. I do not, for instance, in the least way resent liturgical dance among Africans if, indeed, that is culturally inherent to them. Never would I insist that, e.g., Mexican Catholics repaint Our Lady of Guadalupe’s image to be a blue-eyed blonde or Auburn-haired woman, as she is most often represented in German parishes. Nor would I require, e.g., Japanese Catholics to play bagpipes and wear kilts at Catholic funerals or burials.
 
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