Yet another hand holding question

[BSHoop96]

I found this one interesting.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/orans_posture.htm

Hope I did that right.

If you look at the bottom you will see it is from the EWTN site.

 

[Joe_5859]

I personally don’t like doing it. To me, in this society, it’s an artificial accretion.

I don’t feel uncomfortable, particularly, holding the hand of a woman (I’m a man) who is at least ten years older than I am. That’s not strange, as older women are somewhat given to that in this society, (though it might be regional) and it’s not considered weird to do it.

I cannot abide holding the hand of another man’s wife, and I just won’t do it. Under no circumstance would I consider doing it outside the Mass, so why should I be obliged to do at Mass something I would never do outside Mass, even with a good friend?

I don’t feel right holding the hand of an unmarried woman either, particularly a young one. I would never, ever, ever do that outside the Mass.

That goes quadruple for holding a man’s hand. Maybe somewhere on earth (Saudi Arabia, I guess) men hold hands. In this society it’s considered totally out of the way except in a certain perverse circumstance, and I won’t do it, no matter what.

In the outside world, nobody holds the hand of a child that isn’t his own relative. It’s considered exceptionally creepy to do it. I can see no reason why I should feel obliged to overcome that cultural taboo (with which, frankly, I agree) just because I am in church.

So, I just don’t do it other than occasionally under the “old lady” exception. But most older women don’t want to do it anyway, and I would be the last person on earth to force it on them.

In the parish we attend, there was all kinds of hand-holding, raising hands in what I am told is the “orans” position and so on. Then one day, the priest announced that, while we could do that, we were not obliged to do it. The very next Mass, almost nobody did, and it hasn’t come back, either. It seems to be slowly dying out entirely.

That suggests to me that most people are no more comfortable with it than I am, but do it because they think they’re expected to do it.

Having said all that, I don’t have a problem with the handshakes at the “kiss of peace”. That is considered normal in this society, breaks no cultural taboos, and is considered a friendly, but not intimate, gesture.

Oops! Blew my last post.

Interesting article, NeedImprovement, and I thank you for contributing it. What an odd basis for adopting the “orans position”! If your citation is correct, it is a gesture often used by African-Americans in the U.S. during worship, and the bishops thought it would be insensitive to exclude it.

Well, of course, most Catholics in the U.S. are not African-Americans, though I don’t begrudge African-Americans doing it if they wish. However, I come from stodgy old, non-hand-holding European forebears (Maybe southern Italians do it. One might suspect them of it. I don’t know. But that’s not my ancestery) among whom holding hands bespeaks familial or romantic intimacy only. (A major exception to the “familial” hand-holding being one’s son after about age four. Most won’t put up with it after that.)

As with some of the other, stranger things that have crept into the Liturgy here and there, (e.g., liturgical dance, rock bands, “kumbaya”, standing in circles, “encounter” etc) a stodgy fellow like me can be tempted to suspect a counter-cultural motivation to some of it. Some in the U.S. Church just plain don’t LIKE Western Civilization, and don’t make much secret of their desire to shove us down some other path, like so many blind puppies.

But whatever the motivation, I think it’s a mistake to try to force things onto a congregation that are otherwise culturally alien to it, so long as no significant religious purpose requires it. I do not, for instance, in the least way resent liturgical dance among Africans if, indeed, that is culturally inherent to them. Never would I insist that, e.g., Mexican Catholics repaint Our Lady of Guadalupe’s image to be a blue-eyed blonde or Auburn-haired woman, as she is most often represented in German parishes. Nor would I require, e.g., Japanese Catholics to play bagpipes and wear kilts at Catholic funerals or burials.

Ridgerunner, these are two very insightful posts. I have often wondered the same thing about forcing alien cultures onto other people. It does seem as though some people are so enamored with any culture that isn’t their own to the extent that they run away from their own culture. It’s like an odd sort of self-deprecation.

 

[otjm]

The question has been asked about the orans position.

Read Psalm 141.

It goes back long before the time of Christ as a prayer posture.

 

[Lisa44]

I’m so glad this subject was raised. Phew!
I am a new Catholic, baptized last year.

When I was in RCIA at the end of the class we all had to stand in a circle holding hands and praying.

It nearly drove me away from the Catholic Faith. (That and the speaking in tongues extravaganza they had in the church one evening that we were required to attend).

Then, I get to Mass and we have to hold hands again.

I wish so badly that we didn’t have to hold hands in church but I’m a very shy person and the LAST thing I EVER want to do is draw attention to myself and I know that is what would happen if I declined to hold hands.

I’m going to ask the Priest what I should do. Ohhh, its so irritating for a non-touchy/feely person. My husband hates it too.

He is irritated because he never had to do that in church growing up.

If I wanted to speak in tongues or see people doing it, I would have joined the Pentacostal church! If I wanted to hold hands with strangers I would have joined the Baptist church! Lord have mercy! I thought the Catholic Church was more sensible and down to earth.

Sorry for venting people.

 

[Lisa44]

Apparently I’m not done venting as it just occurred to me that its a form of ‘forced’ intimacy with a stranger.

And its insincere. If two people wanted to hold hands it should be because they want to, not that they have to!

Ohhh, I really hate being forced to hold hands with strangers.
Especially when I’m focusing on God.

To be honest, a more absurd gesture I could not imagine.

What is next, hugging in church??? Maybe a grope or two???

Do you know how awkward it is for a woman to suddenly have to hold hands with a man next to her? Its unnatural!

Oh, I pray this absurd practice is ended soon once and for all.

I NEVER read in the bible that people were to hold hands.

 

[elgar]

Apparently I’m not done venting as it just occurred to me that its a form of ‘forced’ intimacy with a stranger.

And its insincere. If two people wanted to hold hands it should be because they want to, not that they have to!

Ohhh, I really hate being forced to hold hands with strangers.
Especially when I’m focusing on God.

To be honest, a more absurd gesture I could not imagine.

What is next, hugging in church??? Maybe a grope or two???

Do you know how awkward it is for a woman to suddenly have to hold hands with a man next to her? Its unnatural!

Oh, I pray this absurd practice is ended soon once and for all.

I NEVER read in the bible that people were to hold hands.

I recommend a book written by Thomas Day, titled “Why Catholics Can’t Sing”. In it he quotes an elderly woman’s response when someone reached for her hand at the kiss of peace. She curtly responded, “I don’t believe in that sh*t”. In fact, Day devotes–and names–an entire chapter after her quote. Humor of course, but I know others who feel the same way but don’t have the guts to hold their ground.

 

[Joe_5859]

I’m going to ask the Priest what I should do. Ohhh, its so irritating for a non-touchy/feely person. My husband hates it too.

I should let you know that I am a touchy/feely kind of person, but even I am extremely uncomfortable with this practice.

 

[EasterJoy]

Apparently I’m not done venting as it just occurred to me that its a form of ‘forced’ intimacy with a stranger.

And its insincere. If two people wanted to hold hands it should be because they want to, not that they have to!

Ohhh, I really hate being forced to hold hands with strangers.
Especially when I’m focusing on God.

To be honest, a more absurd gesture I could not imagine.

What is next, hugging in church??? Maybe a grope or two???

Do you know how awkward it is for a woman to suddenly have to hold hands with a man next to her? Its unnatural!

Oh, I pray this absurd practice is ended soon once and for all.

I NEVER read in the bible that people were to hold hands.

“…forced to hold hand with strangers”? Not to specifically endorse any sort of physical contact, but since when are the baptized strangers? We are one in the Body of Christ, baptized into his death and resurrection. We hope to spend eternity together. There is a sense in which it doesn’t get any more intimate than that. Even marriage doesn’t last for eternity! So while deciding what is and isn’t appropriate touching, let’s not start with the premise that we worship with strangers. Whether or not we know them yet, these are not strangers with whom we become one by sharing Our Lord’s real and substantial Presence in Holy Communion…how could that be? Open your eyes! These are our brothers and sisters!

You did not find hand-holding, but you did read in the Bible that we are to greet each other with a holy kiss or an embrace. You’re OK with that, right?

“Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ send you greetings.” Romans 16:16

“All the brothers greet you. Greet one another with a holy kiss.”
Corinthians 16:20

“Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the holy ones send greetings to you.”
2 Corinthians 13:12

“Greet all the brothers with a holy embrace.”
1 Thessalonians 5:26

“Greet one another with the embrace of true love. Peace to all of you who are in Christ.”
1 Peter 5:14

“Peace be with you. The beloved here send you their greetings; greet the beloved there, each by name.”
3 John:15

 

[otjm]

“…forced to hold hand with strangers”? Not to specifically endorse any sort of physical contact, but since when are the baptized strangers? We are one in the Body of Christ, baptized into his death and resurrection. We hope to spend eternity together. There is a sense in which it doesn’t get any more intimate than that. Even marriage doesn’t last for eternity! So while deciding what is and isn’t appropriate touching, let’s not start with the premise that we worship with strangers. Whether or not we know them yet, these are not strangers with whom we become one by sharing Our Lord’s real and substantial Presence in Holy Communion…how could that be? Open your eyes! These are our brothers and sisters!

You did not find hand-holding, but you did read in the Bible that we are to greet each other with a holy kiss or an embrace. You’re OK with that, right?

“Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ send you greetings.” Romans 16:16

“All the brothers greet you. Greet one another with a holy kiss.”
Corinthians 16:20

“Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the holy ones send greetings to you.”
2 Corinthians 13:12

“Greet all the brothers with a holy embrace.”
1 Thessalonians 5:26

“Greet one another with the embrace of true love. Peace to all of you who are in Christ.”
1 Peter 5:14

“Peace be with you. The beloved here send you their greetings; greet the beloved there, each by name.”
3 John:15

I wondered how long it might take before someone commented on this. The sad part is that with all too many Catholics, that is a fact of life; they go to Mass with a “get in and get out” attitude and the closest they come to any sense of community is that after a period of time attending the same Mass (8:30 Sunday morning, 5:30 Satturday night, or whatever), they recognize some of the people who are also there when they run into them somewhere else in the community. Mention anything about worshiping in community and the charge of “horizontal” immediately flies.

But, like the little old lady said, she doesn’t put up with that s**t. It is just her and Jesus.

 

[Matt33]

I wondered how long it might take before someone commented on this. The sad part is that with all too many Catholics, that is a fact of life; they go to Mass with a “get in and get out” attitude and the closest they come to any sense of community is that after a period of time attending the same Mass (8:30 Sunday morning, 5:30 Satturday night, or whatever), they recognize some of the people who are also there when they run into them somewhere else in the community. Mention anything about worshiping in community and the charge of “horizontal” immediately flies.

But, like the little old lady said, she doesn’t put up with that s**t. It is just her and Jesus.

Jesus is what makes us a community, not touching eachother, there will always be more sense of “community” at a football game than at mass and for good reason. Mass itself is about us and God, I do many things outside of Mass with the Church, Youth ministry, fundraising etc and that is a great sense of community. I think some credibility needs to be given to The way the mass was set up by our Lord and Our Church, sure we shake hands, kiss and hug our brothers and sisters when we meet , but in mass, at the Lords supper, why? It isn’t horizontal worship but it isnt focused worship either, Most work 40 hours, have a family or friends to hang with and gernerallly have plenty of time for community, how about one hour a week when we all come together and it isn’t about us but about holding Gods hand?

 

[otjm]

Jesus is what makes us a community, not touching eachother, there will always be more sense of “community” at a football game than at mass and for good reason. Mass itself is about us and God, I do many things outside of Mass with the Church, Youth ministry, fundraising etc and that is a great sense of community. I think some credibility needs to be given to The way the mass was set up by our Lord and Our Church, sure we shake hands, kiss and hug our brothers and sisters when we meet , but in mass, at the Lords supper, why? It isn’t horizontal worship but it isnt focused worship either, Most work 40 hours, have a family or friends to hang with and gernerallly have plenty of time for community, how about one hour a week when we all come together and it isn’t about us but about holding Gods hand?

Perhaps if you will slow down and read the chain of emails you will be able to see what is being said.

I did not say, and neither did the poster to whom I responded say, that hand holding is what makes community. I don’t have a dog in the fight; I was attending Mass long before hand holding started (which was about 40+ years ago). I don’t find hand holding necessary; neither do I get myself offended if it occurs.

And as far as the simplistic comment that “Jesus makes us community”, the other poster and I were responding to a third poster who talked about the “stranger” next to them. Both of us were responding that no one in Mass is a “Stranger”; they are fellow Catholics who are, along with us, members of the Body of Christ. To call the person next to you a stranger seems to fly in the face of the teachings of the Church. I was responding to the numerous Catholics I have met over the years who have no interest at all in a Catholic community and being active members of it - even the activity of meeting the person next to you after Mass. Youth ministry, fundraising and a whole lot of the rest of the activities of a parish are done by a minority, and often a small minority; many won’t even come to the events that the small minority puts on; they can’t be bothered associatiiong with strangers.

Whether or not people hold hands is essentially irrelevant to me; it neither upsets me if they do or if they don’t. What does upset me goes back to issues that existed long before hand holding started, and exist to this day: people acting as if they were isolated in a sea of strangers, when we are supposed to be members of the Body of Christ.

 

[Matt33]

Perhaps if you will slow down and read the chain of emails you will be able to see what is being said.

I did not say, and neither did the poster to whom I responded say, that hand holding is what makes community. I don’t have a dog in the fight; I was attending Mass long before hand holding started (which was about 40+ years ago). I don’t find hand holding necessary; neither do I get myself offended if it occurs.

And as far as the simplistic comment that “Jesus makes us community”, the other poster and I were responding to a third poster who talked about the “stranger” next to them. Both of us were responding that no one in Mass is a “Stranger”; they are fellow Catholics who are, along with us, members of the Body of Christ. To call the person next to you a stranger seems to fly in the face of the teachings of the Church. I was responding to the numerous Catholics I have met over the years who have no interest at all in a Catholic community and being active members of it - even the activity of meeting the person next to you after Mass. Youth ministry, fundraising and a whole lot of the rest of the activities of a parish are done by a minority, and often a small minority; many won’t even come to the events that the small minority puts on; they can’t be bothered associatiiong with strangers.

Whether or not people hold hands is essentially irrelevant to me; it neither upsets me if they do or if they don’t. What does upset me goes back to issues that existed long before hand holding started, and exist to this day: people acting as if they were isolated in a sea of strangers, when we are supposed to be members of the Body of Christ.

slow down there slick…
I just disagree with you here, I don’t hate you.

1. If people aren’t part of a community outside of mass what makes you think they would be more open to “strangers” in Mass? Because that is what we are when we are not “together in Christ” and are just there for socialization.
2. If Jesus was the focus (It may be simplistic to you but to me it is true. I just must not be as complicated as you are) Then we would not be strangers weather we hold hands or not. But as it stands at least at my parish when we snake the hands around the church, the “band” huddles up together facing away from the altar and congregation it isn’t so much about strangers, but about cliques.

 

[Matt33]

Perhaps if you will slow down and read the chain of emails you will be able to see what is being said.

.

And as far as the** simplistic **comment that "Jesus makes us community

Are these the types of quotes and attitudes that would make a person that you don’t assume to be a stranger want to hold your hand. Nice community.

people acting as if they were isolated in a sea of strangers, when we are supposed to be members of the Body of Christ.

Perhaps people don’t want a buddy, perhaps they are sad, sick, mad, having a bad day, or just a different personality than you. Perhaps they need God and solitude. As you point out a FEW are in ministry or Church activities. Only a few are called, only a few are capable of responding for whatever reason. Careful not to judge people that don’t have the same relationship with the Church and the members of the body that you do. For reasons you just pointed out Few are involved so that DOES make us strangers in a sense. Sad, but certainly not something a little slap and tickle can fix.

 

[nicolep]

We are being a community when we pray the Lord’s Prayer together. I don’t recall Jesus saying we should hold hands when He told us to recite those words. Saying the words as one body of Christ says a whole lot more about who we are than holding hands. That’s true especially considering the number of issues that develop because of the issue. Has holding hands really brought us all together? It’s an empty gesture for some people (not all obviously).

I don’t personally care if others are holding hands, but I don’t appreciate being forced. Or being made to feel like a complete arse for saying, “No, thank you” to someone. So, that leaves me at doing it when someone sticks their hand in my face. It takes away from the community aspect.

We are a community when we sing together, recite the Nicene Creed together and receive the same Christ in the Holy Eucharist…the whole Mass is a community worship. It’s not a “personal” experience, but holding hands doesn’t make it a community experience either.

 

[EasterJoy]

I was NOT saying that we ought to be physically touching each other at Mass. The “culturally relevant” sword cuts both ways. That early Christians kissed or embraced each other without a thought does not mean that we have to. How we “embrace” each other will depend on the culture we have.

I was only saying that we do need to have the attitude in every age that every other baptized person in the Church is our brother or sister in Christ. They are not strangers. That attitude is out of place because it is contrary to Christ’s explicitly expressed desire that we be one as He and the Father are one.

In our own families, though, the fact that some of our siblings are not “touchy” doesn’t mean that these siblings don’t love us or don’t think of us as family. In the same way, not everyone who is willing to walk up and give us a hug is necessarily willing to take on the full responsibility of a brother or a sister.

We are not free to reject our parents’ other children. We didn’t choose them, but we may not disown them. That doesn’t mean that they can do no wrong or that everything they do is OK. It doesn’t mean the authorities in the family can’t impose discipline. It doesn’t mean we have no perogative when it comes to defining our own personal boundaries, either!

In our family, we teach the kids that the “kiss of peace” we offer to those we know well should be something we are willing to offer everyone–don’t kiss Mom unless you’re willing to kiss everybody–but that others have a right to offer a sign of peace to us that is less physical than what we’re offering. We have a guy at church who very definitely does not touch anybody. I think his non-physical way of expressing a sign of peace should be respected, and I teach our kids that.

IMHO, someone who “doesn’t put up with that s**t” ought to follow the rubrics and offer a sign of peace, but has every right to offer the sign of peace in his or her own way. If they’re not up to touching, that shouldn’t be forced on them.

We should look to the comfort of the other. That’s my two bits.

 

[EasterJoy]

I don’t personally care if others are holding hands, but I don’t appreciate being forced. Or being made to feel like a complete arse for saying, “No, thank you” to someone. So, that leaves me at doing it when someone sticks their hand in my face. It takes away from the community aspect.

Although I think you have the choice not to allow someone to run a guilt trip on you, that how someone “makes you feel” is really your choice, I agree with what you’re saying. I don’t think people should try to manipulate anyone into doing anything at Mass, particularly those things not specified by the rubrics. Even with with regards to the rubrics, very few of us have the standing to enforce others to observe them. Most of us are responsible for the compliance of ourselves alone, assuming we don’t have children whose behavior is our responsibility. Excepting those actually committing a sacrilege, we should leave the rest of our brothers and sisters alone.

 

[nicolep]

Although I think you have the choice not to allow someone to run a guilt trip on you, that how someone “makes you feel” is really your choice, I agree with what you’re saying. I don’t think people should try to manipulate anyone into doing anything at Mass, particularly those things not specified by the rubrics. Even with with regards to the rubrics, very few of us have the standing to enforce others to observe them. Most of us are responsible for the compliance of ourselves alone, assuming we don’t have children whose behavior is our responsibility. Excepting those actually committing a sacrilege, we should leave the rest of our brothers and sisters alone.

I completely accept that I allow myself to feel that way. I think it’s because I wouldn’t typically ever turn down a hand shake, etc. Also, I didn’t think you were saying that we should all hold hands. I see your point, but I do think some people fail to realize that we are (well, should be) behaving as a community without holding hands.

 

[EasterJoy]

I completely accept that I allow myself to feel that way. I think it’s because I wouldn’t typically ever turn down a hand shake, etc. Also, I didn’t think you were saying that we should all hold hands. I see your point, but I do think some people fail to realize that we are (well, should be) behaving as a community without holding hands.

I agree that there seems to be some idea that there is a right to reciprocation of the outstretched hand. Oh, well. This vale of tears is nothing if not an on-going education. We certainly don’t all learn the lessons in the same order!!

I try to have a pleasant look on my face when I am put in the position of having to bluntly refuse something like holding hands at Mass, but other than that, the choice to take the refusal personally is theirs. If they want an explanation, they can always ask.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I just wish I knew why we could not ‘drop’ this ‘innovation’ of hand-holding in Mass.

Can’t we spend one hour without ‘having’ to hold hands because somewhere, sometime about 35 or 40 years ago, some people decided Mass wasn’t ‘relevant enough’ and we needed to ‘be church by touching each other’ and ever since, people keep doing it?

I’ll shake your hand after Mass (even when it hurts my shoulder). I’ll hug you after Mass for half an hour or** more** if that’s what you need. I’ll gather round the donut station holding hands with the entire congregation and sing Kum Ba Yah. . .if it is AFTER MASS.

Why, why, why can’t all the ‘extras’ and additions be done AFTER MASS??

(in case you can’t tell, I recently moved. My otherwise lovely parish and lovely priest have --unfortunately for me–at some point made it ‘mandatory’ that everybody holds hands for the Our Father. I stand off to the side, hands wrapped around prayerbook and eyes tightly shut and so far I haven’t had my shoulder/arm/hand pulled, thank goodness–but why do I have to have that worry of possible physical pain, and certainly why do have the of being ‘outside the group’ when this whole hand holding is not mandatory and should not be?)

 

[Lisa44]

“…forced to hold hand with strangers”? Not to specifically endorse any sort of physical contact, but since when are the baptized strangers? We are one in the Body of Christ, baptized into his death and resurrection. We hope to spend eternity together. There is a sense in which it doesn’t get any more intimate than that. Even marriage doesn’t last for eternity! So while deciding what is and isn’t appropriate touching, let’s not start with the premise that we worship with strangers. Whether or not we know them yet, these are not strangers with whom we become one by sharing Our Lord’s real and substantial Presence in Holy Communion…how could that be? Open your eyes! These are our brothers and sisters!

You did not find hand-holding, but you did read in the Bible that we are to greet each other with a holy kiss or an embrace. You’re OK with that, right?

“Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the churches of Christ send you greetings.” Romans 16:16

“All the brothers greet you. Greet one another with a holy kiss.”
Corinthians 16:20

“Greet one another with a holy kiss. All the holy ones send greetings to you.”
2 Corinthians 13:12

“Greet all the brothers with a holy embrace.”
1 Thessalonians 5:26

“Greet one another with the embrace of true love. Peace to all of you who are in Christ.”
1 Peter 5:14

“Peace be with you. The beloved here send you their greetings; greet the beloved there, each by name.”
3 John:15

EasterJoy-
The definition of stranger is ‘a person with whom one has no personnal aquaintance.’

Whether they are Christians or not, I still don’t know them.

Especially since the only Catholic I know is my husband. I went to Mass by myself, literally everyone was a stranger to me.

There are many reasons a person may not want to hold hands during Mass. For me it mainly disrupts the experience for me, turning my attention to an awkward social gesture with someone I’ve never met before.

Am I OK with greeting Christians I have never met before (aka strangers) with a kiss or embrace. No, I’m really not. I think that I would reserve that for Christians who I knew, and was comfortable with, and with whom such acts of affection felt appropriate.

I read your quotes from the bible as they mostly relate to a “holy kiss”. Most of the contexts for those instructions are very specific in that the letter is describing certain people or saints who are coming to those people to preach. They are to greet them warmly, ie: a holy kiss.

Also, the holy kiss has been adapted in our times as the handshake as its not our custom to kiss people.

Lets try not to take the bible out of context and use it as a prop for our own liturgical adaptations. If Pope Benedict says we must hold hands then I’ll believe him. Otherwise, I’ll ask my Priest about it and see what he says.