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Eden
Guest
I still haven’t seen proof that Muhammed physically wrote the Quran.
But beyond that, you claim that the Quran is preserved, intact and the same as it was revealed.
Firstly, Muslim scholars state the earliest copy of the Koran was written no earlier than 150 years after Muhammad died. Do you have evidence that there is an earlier copy available? Where are all of the copies from the first 150 years? Is it possible they were burned after the Quran was rewritten several times?
Muslim scholars date the Samarqand MSS in Tashkent and the MSS in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul to no earlier than 200 years after the death of Muhammed, as they are written in the script style “Kufic”, not the earlier style called Ma’il or Mashq. Do you want to claim that they were written any earlier?
The text in the Quran (37:103) says “they had both submitted their wills (became Muslims)” while the Arabic text of the Tashkent MSS gives the exact opposite meaning, “they did not submitted their wills” (they did NOT become Muslims.) If the perfection of the Quran is a miracle, how do you explain this variation?
Which Quran is the one that has remained intact and the same as when it was revealed - the “mother of all books in heaven”? The Tashkent MSS or the modern Egyptian Quran? They vary, for instance, in 5 passages: 2:284, 2:283, 3:37, 3:109 and 5:119. The Tashkent MSS uses the word ‘Allah’ while the modern Egyptian Quran uses the word ‘huwa’.
If all Qurans are the same and uncorrupted, why will the authorities refuse the release of documentary photographs of the Topkapi manuscript?
And where in the Quran does it tell you that the Bible in the hands of the Christians at the time of Muhammed had been corrupted? (O.K., yes, I’ve asked this question several times before but since the Quran says no such thing, I never get an answer.)
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Eden
Guest
Thanks for clarifying.
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inJESUS
Guest
There are many proof that can be given about Quran variants but i don’t think we should focus on this point. Yes i know it is frustrating when Muslims say that no single word was changed when this is very far from truth and logic knowing that there are already different variants in different Qurans, and that Billions of vowels and dots were inserted later unto the previously unmarked arabic language…but i do not believe that preservation is a sign for divinity cuz we got many preserved works which are not divine and am sure all these variants in Quran do not affect a major Islamic doctrine, just like the Bible variants are for the most part meaningless.
So we better answer Meedo’s questions instead of questioning Quranic variants. Meedo is a logical person and we can share interesting stuff
So we better answer Meedo’s questions instead of questioning Quranic variants. Meedo is a logical person and we can share interesting stuff
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Eden
Guest
That’s fine. We’ll just leave it at that then. The claim that the Quran is intact and unchanging is not accurate. So, let’s move on.There are many proof that can be given about Quran variants but i don’t think we should focus on this point. Yes i know it is frustrating when Muslims say that no single word was changed when this is very far from truth and logic knowing that there are already different variants in different Qurans, and that Billions of vowels and dots were inserted later unto the previously unmarked arabic language…but i do not believe that preservation is a sign for divinity cuz we got many preserved works which are not divine and am sure all these variants in Quran do not affect a major Islamic doctrine, just like the Bible variants are for the most part meaningless.
So we better answer Meedo’s questions instead of questioning Quranic variants. Meedo is a logical person and we can share interesting stuff
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Eireann
Guest
I **do not **believe that an angel from Heaven appeared to Muhammed.
Like I said above, Paul had already warned us about those that preach another…
John 14: 8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied.”
9: Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? ** He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father’? **
10: Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me?
How would you explain this verse above ?
Care to elaborate on idol worship ? forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=110497
There is reference to the Trinity, if you look closely enough, the Baptism in the river Jordan for one.
Matt: 3:16 And Jesus being baptized, forthwith came out of the water: and lo, the heavens were opened to him: and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him. 17 And behold a voice from heaven, saying: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Here you have Jesus on earth, the Holy Spirit descending, and the voice of the Father.
It’s not pure and solid, like Saint Paul warned, and Muhammed was well informed about the Bible, even used the same style chapter and verse type quoting.
As Eden said above, it hasn’t been preserved.
Does the Quran say to force others to convert to Islam ?
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Tah_Dah_Man
Guest
The many BIBLICAL prophecies already fulfilled in Jesus Christ’s first coming, leave little doubt that the rest will come to pass - about His second coming.
bibleprobe.com/365messianicprophecies.htm
biblia.com/jesusbible/prophecies.htm
bprc.org/topics/fulfill.html
greatcom.org/resources/areadydefense/ch19/default.htm
godonthe.net/evidence/messiah.htm
100prophecies.org/
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pismopal
Guest
Let me just point out that you are not a Christian but you think of yourself as an expert on our religion. All I have read from you is standard muslim misunderstanding about Jesus and who He was and what He said He was.Well, most probably you as a catholic is more knowledgable than i am about islam as i am only a muslim .
Also you seem so unbiased and fair.
Have fun Eden
salam
Robert Spenser has written volumes about Islam and it hasn’t been refuted. Try " The Truth About Muhammad" for openers and then on to “The World’s Most Intolerant Religion”.
Why would the Koran tell muslims to kill Jews? If you deny that it does you have lost all credibility. By their fruits you shall know them takes on a special meaning here.
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paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
I would like to answer as follows.
- There is no verse in Quran, which says that a look-alike was killed on Cross by hands of the Jews. If you are positive on this kindly quote from Quran.
Following is the verse in Quran:
[3:94] All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel forbade himself before the Torah was sent down. Say, ‘Bring, then, the Torah and read it, if you are truthful.’
[3:95] Now whoso forges a lie against Allah after this, then it is these that are the wrongdoers.
[3:96] Say, ‘Allah has declared the truth; follow, therefore, the religion of Abraham who was ever inclined to Allah; and he was not of those who associated gods with Him.’
[3:97] Surely, the first House founded for all mankind is that at Becca, abounding in blessings and a guidance for all peoples.
[3:98] In it are manifest Signs; it is the place of Abraham; and whosoever enters it, is safe. And pilgrimage to the House is a duty which men - those who can find a way thither - owe to Allah. And whosoever disbelieves, let him remember that Allah is surely Independent of all creatures.
[3:99] Say, 'O People of the Book! Why deny ye the signs of Allah, while Allah is Witness of what you do?
[3:100] Say, ‘O People of the Book! Why hinder ye the believers from the path of Allah, seeking to make it crooked, while you are witnesses thereof? And Allah is not unmindful of what you do.’
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=3&verse=90
3.
There is no verse in its support in Quran.
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If you mean that Gabriel delivered a bound book to Muhammad, that is not correct and it is not supported by Quran. If you mean that Gabriel brought revelation from GodAllahYHWH as messenger angel, to the heart of Muhammad, that is correct.
Thanks
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De_Maria
Guest
Mohammed made unverified claims. His writings were never completed. Uthman burned the originals and substituted his copy.
The truth of the Gospels was witnessed and testified.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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De_Maria
Guest
Why not? Simply because you say so? We have four books which recount His miracles and His Resurrection and the miracles of His followers. Why should we disregard that evidence for what you say?
But that is a false statement. Each Gospel can be traced to Jesus since Jesus is the subject of each Gospel.
People were killed? Where’d you get that?
And the original versions of the Quran were all burned. Yet you believe it.
And people were killed who opposed Uthman burning the Quran. Yet you believe it.
And the Uthman Rescension was selected by committee. Yet you believe that.
Why do Muslims have the right to claim what should be the true Quran but Christians don’t have the right to decide what is a true Gospel?
Typical Muslim reasoning.
Yet He was accused of claiming to be God:
John 10
33 The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, maketh thyself God.
These are the remnant of the Jews. The disbelievers. The true Jews converted by the thousands until the synagogues were virtually empty.
But it was prophecied.
No. It is blind faith in Mohammed. Mohammed’s vision was never substantiated.
No. It is obedience to Mohammed. Or perhaps Uthman. But not to God.
You expressed your opinion. But you provided no substance.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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Tah_Dah_Man
Guest
From The Bible (Take it, or leave it.)
The Trinity (or, the plurality of the One God)
Revealed in the Old Testament:
At the Creation - Genesis 1:1-3, 26.
At the Tower of Babel - Genesis 11:7. (11:4-9.)
In the Personality of the Spirit - Isaiah 40:13, 16.
By an Angel - Judges 13:8-23.
By Wisdom - Proverbs 8:22-31.
By Threefold “Holy” - Isaiah 6:3.
By Aaronic Benediction - Numbers 6:24-27.
Revealed in the New Testament:
At the Creation - John, chapter 1.
At Christ’s Baptism - Matthew 3:16-17.
In Christ’s Teaching - John 14:26. 15:26. Ch. 17.
Baptismal Formula - Matthew 28:19.
Apostolic Benediction - 2 Corinthians 13:14.
Apostolic Teaching - Galatians 4:4-6.
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Tah_Dah_Man
Guest
Jesus is God Almighty in human flesh. Fully God. Fully Man.
1 Timothy 2:5-6. and 3:16. John 1:1-18. Isaiah 7:14. and 9:6. Matthew 1:18-25. and 28:16-20. Acts 4:10-12. and 10:34-47. Philippians 2:5-13. 2 Corinthians 4:1-6. Hebrews 1:1-14. and 13:8,15. Colossians 1:9-29. and 2:1-15. Romans 9:5. John 20:26-31. Revelation 1:1-20 and 7:9-17. and 19:11-16. and 21:1-8.
(Exodus 3:14. - John 6:35. and 8:12, 58. and 10:7,11. and 14:6. and 15:1.)
Enjoy!
1 Timothy 2:5-6. and 3:16. John 1:1-18. Isaiah 7:14. and 9:6. Matthew 1:18-25. and 28:16-20. Acts 4:10-12. and 10:34-47. Philippians 2:5-13. 2 Corinthians 4:1-6. Hebrews 1:1-14. and 13:8,15. Colossians 1:9-29. and 2:1-15. Romans 9:5. John 20:26-31. Revelation 1:1-20 and 7:9-17. and 19:11-16. and 21:1-8.
(Exodus 3:14. - John 6:35. and 8:12, 58. and 10:7,11. and 14:6. and 15:1.)
Enjoy!
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Tah_Dah_Man
Guest
I saw a video years ago, of an Islamic preacher who illustrated the condemning Islamic view of those who believe God has a Son.
They believe that such an idea is an insult to God (Allah). He even went so far as to say that it is an insulting “animalistic” sexual thing to suggest that God had a Son.
And, when Christians find this out, it is so unbelievable.
Because, you know, that we believe that it was a miracle, that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and not of an “animalistic” sexual nature.
So, how many Muslims still believe that Christians believe that?
This is going to take a lot of patience and Bible doctrine to lay it all out plainly before Muslims.
I hope that this makes an impression, to say the least.
And, it should be noted that the Mormons believe (since 1827) that God the Father is a man, who came down to have sex with Mary for the conception of Jesus.
The Mormon Church is a cult, indeed.
Maybe, they are partly to blame.
They believe that such an idea is an insult to God (Allah). He even went so far as to say that it is an insulting “animalistic” sexual thing to suggest that God had a Son.
And, when Christians find this out, it is so unbelievable.
Because, you know, that we believe that it was a miracle, that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and not of an “animalistic” sexual nature.
So, how many Muslims still believe that Christians believe that?
This is going to take a lot of patience and Bible doctrine to lay it all out plainly before Muslims.
I hope that this makes an impression, to say the least.
And, it should be noted that the Mormons believe (since 1827) that God the Father is a man, who came down to have sex with Mary for the conception of Jesus.
The Mormon Church is a cult, indeed.
Maybe, they are partly to blame.
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