Yet another OSAS thread

[Jerry-Jet]

As long as Jesus says that He is the tree and we are the branches and as Jesus says we CAN be cut off and burned then OSAS will forever be a lie!

Who is right–Jesus or the OSAS believing crowd?

There is NO way we the branches could be living united to Him without being saved–YET Jesus says that we those living branches CAN be cut off and burned!

Jesus doesn’t believe in OSAS–if He did He would never have said that the branches could be burned!

 

[WhatItSays]

Look, I wasn’t expecting to convert anyone here from Catholicism; I’ve been involved in these discussions before. I was just addressing your contention that OSAS is a heresy. You still haven’t addressed my responses.

Did Paul teach the church members in Romans 8 and Ephesians 1-3 that somebody is predestined to be united with God or not? If he did, then OSAS is true for someone somewhere. That is my argument. Again:

Romans 8:11 - “And if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead, dwell in you; he that raised up Jesus Christ from the dead, shall quicken also your mortal bodies, because of his Spirit that dwelleth in you.” Douay Rheims 1899

I very intentionally kept it focused on these passages because I know how roundabout these things can be…

 

[andrewstx]

when whatit says that he is espousing the reformed religion, is that not the same as Calvinism?

Perseverance of the saints is the P in tulip. Do you also believe in the other parts of TULIP like unconditional election?

 

[WhatItSays]

when whatit says that he is espousing the reformed religion, is that not the same as Calvinism?

Perseverance of the saints is the P in tulip. Do you also believe in the other parts of TULIP like unconditional election?

I actually nowhere stated that I espouse the Reformed religion. Interestingly enough, perhaps, I am not a Calvinist and I do not subscribe to Reformed theology. I was basing my argument based on the clear passages of scripture that are directed to somebody.

I would argue against most of the TULIP, though there is some truth contained therein. I am not a monergist, I am a synergist. I actually use the term preservation of the saints instead of perseverance of the saints, as it is a little different. However, once one receives the Holy Spirit of God, there is a certain destiny afforded the believer based purely on the will of God.

 

[WhatItSays]

JustaServant, would you agree that someone is predestined to salvation, but that he has to maintain good works in order to insure that he is one of the elect? Do you deny predestination altogether?

What is your take on the passage of Ephesians in which someone is seated in the heavenly realm with Christ?

 

[JustaServant]

WhatItSays,
Today is going to pretty busy. I’ll try to get back to you tonight.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Does the fundamentalist doctrine of once saved always saved lead to:

1. A lack of fear in regard to Hell?
2. A dismissive attitude toward sin?

Why or why not?

JustaServant,

Speaking from my personal experience as a former Southern Baptist; I would say the OSAS belief does remove the fear of Hell for one’s self. The fear of Hell remains for those who do not know Christ and are not “saved.” So, proselytizing is a big part of the Southern Baptist faith.

I wouldn’t say that, as a Southern Baptist, I was dismissive of sin; but I was far less worried about it in regards to myself. The focus was on the sin of others, which often leads to judgment of the souls of others–a judgement that belongs to God alone. There are Baptists who have no problem declaring who is and isn’t going to Hell.

As an Anglo Catholic acutely aware that salvation is a life long process; the focus has moved from the sins of others to the focus of my own sin and its consequences both in this life and the next. My focus is on the Holy Trinity and living the life of a “good and faithful servant”—of course I fail everyday. I realize that to claim salvation with absolute certainty is to judge my own soul. Since I am not God, I do not have the authority to judge my own soul, much less pass judgement on anyone else. If we look at the whole of Scripture, OSAS cannot be justified.

One of the things that made a big impression on me is the fact that Jesus did not even guarantee salvation for his Apostles. He said the one who endures to the end will be saved (Matthew Chapter 10).

 

[pablope]

JustaServant,

I wouldn’t say that, as a Southern Baptist, I was dismissive of sin; but I was far less worried about it in regards to myself. The focus was on the sin of others, which often leads to judgment of the souls of others–a judgement that belongs to God alone. There are Baptists who have no problem declaring who is and isn’t going to Hell.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . .How so true…I encountered just such a group…though they were not baptists…but believed that baptists can be traced back to John the Baptist…who had no qualms saying Mother Teresa is in hell…

Yes, and we know there is no historical evidence to support their claim. Saying Mother Teresa is in Hell is so disturbing, I really wouldn’t know where to begin.

Well said…Anna.

Thanks. I love it when someone actually agrees with me. Doesn’t happen all that often.

Anna

 

[JRKH]

JustaServant, would you agree that someone is predestined to salvation, but that he has to maintain good works in order to insure that he is one of the elect? Do you deny predestination altogether?

What is your take on the passage of Ephesians in which someone is seated in the heavenly realm with Christ?

Do you mind if someone else pops in on this?

I haven’t read through the entire thread, but to me the problem with “predestination” etc comes down to this.

Predestination can exist from God’s viewpoint since he knows everything.
Predestination cannot exist from our viewpoint since we cannot know…

As an example…Suppose you are going to be out and you set the machine to record the ball game. While you are out, you hear winner and the score…
Later you sit down to watch the game…
YOU know the outcome…But the people you are watching do not.
For you the outcome is “Predetermined”. for them it is not.

So - from a purely theoretical or academic standpoint the gist of what you say might have some merit…But from a practical standpoint … well it’s pointless since it offers nothing of help to our daily walk with Christ in faith…

Just my 2 cents…

Peace
James

 

[WhatItSays]

Do you mind if someone else pops in on this?

I haven’t read through the entire thread, but to me the problem with “predestination” etc comes down to this.

Predestination can exist from God’s viewpoint since he knows everything.
Predestination cannot exist from our viewpoint since we cannot know…

As an example…Suppose you are going to be out and you set the machine to record the ball game. While you are out, you hear winner and the score…
Later you sit down to watch the game…
YOU know the outcome…But the people you are watching do not.
For you the outcome is “Predetermined”. for them it is not.

So - from a purely theoretical or academic standpoint the gist of what you say might have some merit…But from a practical standpoint … well it’s pointless since it offers nothing of help to our daily walk with Christ in faith…

Just my 2 cents…

Peace
James

I can appreciate this attempt at explaining predestination, but it is not the argument for predestination presented in the scriptures.

For instance, the outcome of world history is predestined and revealed to the church and even to the OT hearers of the prophets through means of the prophetic utterances and visions which have been written down for all generations. There is a predestination in the apocalypse, or unveiling of Christ, which is actually given for the believer to know and to apply to his daily walk with Christ in faith. The effect of the apocalypse and the thousands of corroborating prophecies is that it teaches us to hold this world loosely and to be sober towards the power of evil in our present state.

In both Romans 8 and Ephesians 1, the Apostle Paul uses the word predestined or predestinate in reference to “us”, seemingly the body of believers in Jesus Christ. If you will read the thread, you will see my argument is that someone, somewhere in the scriptures very plainly has the promise of predestined union with God applied to his or her life.

“As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity. Who hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose of his will: Unto the praise of the glory of his grace, in which he hath graced us in his beloved son.”

Ephesians 1:4-6 Douay Rheims 1899

 

[JustaServant]

JustaServant, would you agree that someone is predestined to salvation, but that he has to maintain good works in order to insure that he is one of the elect? Do you deny predestination altogether?

What is your take on the passage of Ephesians in which someone is seated in the heavenly realm with Christ?

God created man for Himself and of all his creation, he chose man to be in His image and likeness. Through the Incarnation, He sanctifies humanity by uniting it to His divinity. Through the cross, He makes **salvation possible **for man.
Since our hearts yearn for God and God yearns for us, we are predestined, meaning that God has a plan. However, predestination as Protestants want to interpret it is really predetermination. The idea being God has predetermined who will be saved and who will be lost.
God knows, because he lives outside of space and time. To say that God predetermines means that God tampers with human freedom, in which case, there is no freedom.
God never tampers with our freedom.
Part of his love for us professed in his respect for us. We see this respect for humanity in all of Christ’s encounters, especially with sinners. He is forthright, but he is not manipulative. He invites, but he does not proselytize. He’s not out to market himself and his message. “Let those who have ears hear.”
He gives men the choice.
St. Augustine said “Our hearts will not rest until they rest in Thee O Lord.”

 

[JustaServant]

But lets get back to OSAS.
Let me ask this question.
What is purpose of OSAS? What does OSAS do for the Christian that it would not do otherwise?

 

[JRKH]

I can appreciate this attempt at explaining predestination, but it is not the argument for predestination presented in the scriptures.

For instance, the outcome of world history is predestined and revealed to the church and even to the OT hearers of the prophets through means of the prophetic utterances and visions which have been written down for all generations. There is a predestination in the apocalypse, or unveiling of Christ, which is actually given for the believer to know and to apply to his daily walk with Christ in faith. The effect of the apocalypse and the thousands of corroborating prophecies is that it teaches us to hold this world loosely and to be sober towards the power of evil in our present state.

You are quite right that God has revealed certain things through prophetic utterance and same have been recorded in Scripture. But I would note that even these are not particularly clear to those who hear them - or in the case of the book of Revelation - are not very clear to those who read them…Look at that many interpretations attached to that book over the years…
So - in many ways - even when God DOES tell us (humanity) ahead of time, we simply don’t understand Him, or ignore what He says.

In both Romans 8 and Ephesians 1, the Apostle Paul uses the word predestined or predestinate in reference to “us”, seemingly the body of believers in Jesus Christ. If you will read the thread, you will see my argument is that someone, somewhere in the scriptures very plainly has the promise of predestined union with God applied to his or her life.

“As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity. Who hath predestinated us unto the adoption of children through Jesus Christ unto himself: according to the purpose of his will: Unto the praise of the glory of his grace, in which he hath graced us in his beloved son.”

Ephesians 1:4-6 Douay Rheims 1899

Also very true and in isolation would firmly support your position. Unfortunately we do not have the option of taking such things in isolation.
I’m not a chapter and verse man…But I am sure that you recognize that St Paul also says some other things…
He mentions about the persevering till the end.
He warns the Church in Corinth to expel a member for sin - delivering such a one to the destruction of the flesh - in the hope that the spririt might be saved.
He warns them also about receiving the body and blood of Christ Unworthily and thus eating and drinking Judgement on themselves.

St John likewise speaks of Those who went out from us - who were never really a apart of us (though surely they believed they were)…

St James speaks of those who claim belief but do not act on that belief (Faith and works). He warns that belief without action is of no use (Faith alone without works is dead)

And let us not forget Jesus own words in the parable of the Sower and the seed…In two of the four cases mentioned there, the word is received by the hearer, but they do not persevere…They are obviously trying to persevere, and while they are persevering they believe themselves saved…(the human perspective)…but God knows the soil and knows they will not persevere (God’s perspective)…

So in taking Scripture as a whole, one is left (or should be left) with both a joy and a hope, but at the same time a caution and a firm reminder to “be sober and watch”…

In summary, I don’t deny that predestination exists - From God’s perspective - I only deny that it does not exist from our perspective.

Can you understand that simple point?

Peace
James

 

[WhatItSays]

But lets get back to OSAS.
Let me ask this question.
What is purpose of OSAS? What does OSAS do for the Christian that it would not do otherwise?

It should imprint on them the notion that they belong to God, that they are bought with a price, a purchased possession. The Christians can know that they are serving God because they are slaves to their master as opposed to seekers trying to earn favor. It places salvation squarely in the hands of God (who is unshakable and immutable) and outside the hands of men (who will fail). It enables the proclamation of the gospel with boldness and assurance, and, as the former Southern Baptist attested, it draws a starker distinction between the goats and the sheep.

OSAS gets to the heart of what the gospel of Jesus Christ actually “is”. It is the proclamation of salvation assured through the merits of Christ to all who will believe. This is a radically different gospel than that espoused by the Catholic Church, and thus it is labelled a heresy. Does it breed arrogance and presumption? Admittedly, at times. This is sometimes a by-product, as even the early days of the church saw much of the opposition to Christianity come in the form of complaints from the citizens of the Roman Empire that the Christians were arrogant about how right they were and how wrong the established order of worship throughout the regions was. Thank God they didn’t back down!

 

[WhatItSays]

Also very true and in isolation would firmly support your position. Unfortunately we do not have the option of taking such things in isolation.
I’m not a chapter and verse man…But I am sure that you recognize that St Paul also says some other things…
He mentions about the persevering till the end.
He warns the Church in Corinth to expel a member for sin - delivering such a one to the destruction of the flesh - in the hope that the spririt might be saved.
He warns them also about receiving the body and blood of Christ Unworthily and thus eating and drinking Judgement on themselves.

St John likewise speaks of Those who went out from us - who were never really a apart of us (though surely they believed they were)…

So in taking Scripture as a whole, one is left (or should be left) with both a joy and a hope, but at the same time a caution and a firm reminder to “be sober and watch”…

In summary, I don’t deny that predestination exists - From God’s perspective - I only deny that it does not exist from our perspective.

Can you understand that simple point?

Peace
James

There is clearly an element of preserving a pure and holy testimony to the world contained in the New Testament scriptures to which you allude. I believe that these instructions are aimed at keeping the testimony of the redeemed pure for the sake of genuine worship and to prevent unbelievers from presuming that they were a “Christian” without the genuine transformation that conversion brings. A little leaven leavens the whole lump as St. Paul writes in Galatians, so it is necessary to believe the gospel and walk in faith, which includes confronting error and even expunging it from the assembly when it becomes a problem.

I did not deny that there is a “process” to salvation, but it is a practical process, a maturity if you will, as opposed to a soteriological process. As I stated in the post above, the Christian life is viewed as an outgrowth of the work that God has begun in us rather than an effort to merit God’s favor at the Final Judgment. We hope to be resurrected, but as Paul explains in Romans 8, the resurrection is assured to whosoever has received the Spirit of God. All of the warnings in the scripture after the resurrection of Christ are aimed at making sure individuals are truly in the body of Christ as opposed to merely being professors, as in the allusion of John in his epistle.

I believe that predestination is a promise given to the believer in God who has genuinely received the Spirit of God, and that the believer can know that he is predestined to salvation based on the witness of the scriptures and Spirit in his life. No one is able to judge whether another has received the Spirit in any sense other than whether his testimony matches up with the way of the Lord. This would include perseverance.

 

[WhatItSays]

Since our hearts yearn for God and God yearns for us, we are predestined, meaning that God has a plan. However, predestination as Protestants want to interpret it is really predetermination. The idea being God has predetermined who will be saved and who will be lost.

I just wanted to address this as well. I do not subscribe to TULIP Calvinism, so I would agree with you about Monergistic predetermination as being in error (though obviously God knows all). I am arguing for the predestination spoken of by Paul to the believers who have received the Spirit of God and are thus afforded an assurance of their end.

 

[JRKH]

There is clearly an element of preserving a pure and holy testimony to the world contained in the New Testament scriptures to which you allude. I believe that these instructions are aimed at keeping the testimony of the redeemed pure for the sake of genuine worship and to prevent unbelievers from presuming that they were a “Christian” without the genuine transformation that conversion brings. A little leaven leavens the whole lump as St. Paul writes in Galatians, so it is necessary to believe the gospel and walk in faith, which includes confronting error and even expunging it from the assembly when it becomes a problem.

I did not deny that there is a “process” to salvation, but it is a practical process, a maturity if you will, as opposed to a soteriological process. As I stated in the post above, the Christian life is viewed as an outgrowth of the work that God has begun in us rather than an effort to merit God’s favor at the Final Judgment. We hope to be resurrected, but as Paul explains in Romans 8, the resurrection is assured to whosoever has received the Spirit of God. All of the warnings in the scripture after the resurrection of Christ are aimed at making sure individuals are truly in the body of Christ as opposed to merely being professors, as in the allusion of John in his epistle.

I believe that predestination is a promise given to the believer in God who has genuinely received the Spirit of God, and that the believer can know that he is predestined to salvation based on the witness of the scriptures and Spirit in his life. No one is able to judge whether another has received the Spirit in any sense other than whether his testimony matches up with the way of the Lord. This would include perseverance.

I think that there is much of real merit in what you say above - even though we might express things a bit differently in some aspects and understand things a bit differently in others…

You strike me as one who does not hold to, or teach others, the sorts of errors that are often brought up in connection to OSAS - That you would see some of the things mentioned here and in other threads as evidence of, as you say above…"unbelievers…presuming that they were a “Christian” without the genuine transformation that conversion brings.
And this is as it should be.

Peace
James

 

[JustaServant]

I just wanted to address this as well. I do not subscribe to TULIP Calvinism, so I would agree with you about Monergistic predetermination as being in error (though obviously God knows all). I am arguing for the predestination spoken of by Paul to the believers who have received the Spirit of God and are thus afforded an assurance of their end.

But you see, only God know that. When the mind of man tries to probe the mind of God in determining who the “elect” are and are not, they play a dangerous game. That was one factor that turned me off about Calvinism.

 

[JustaServant]

It should imprint on them the notion that they belong to God, that they are bought with a price, a purchased possession. The Christians can know that they are serving God because they are slaves to their master as opposed to seekers trying to earn favor. It places salvation squarely in the hands of God (who is unshakable and immutable) and outside the hands of men (who will fail). It enables the proclamation of the gospel with boldness and assurance, and, as the former Southern Baptist attested, it draws a starker distinction between the goats and the sheep.

OSAS gets to the heart of what the gospel of Jesus Christ actually “is”. It is the proclamation of salvation assured through the merits of Christ to all who will believe. This is a radically different gospel than that espoused by the Catholic Church, and thus it is labelled a heresy. Does it breed arrogance and presumption? Admittedly, at times. This is sometimes a by-product, as even the early days of the church saw much of the opposition to Christianity come in the form of complaints from the citizens of the Roman Empire that the Christians were arrogant about how right they were and how wrong the established order of worship throughout the regions was. Thank God they didn’t back down!

Where do you find the concept, if not the actual phrasology, of OSAS in the early Church?
I am talking extra-Biblical historical mention, in the early centuries of the Church?