Yet another reason to honor (NOT worship) the Blessed Virgin Mary

[Poco]

I came across this while I was viewing the forums:

Re: What would have happened if Mary had said no?

Mary’s choice to say yes to God was perfectly free because she has free will; however, because of his omniscience, God knew that Mary would say yes, so he wasn’t faced with the prospect you proposed. For the sake of argument, if Mary had said no, she would not have sinned by that decision. At that point, God could either have chosen another means by which to offer humanity redemption; or he could have chosen not to redeem humanity(emphasis mine). The choice would have been his. Thankfully, we need not worry about it since Mary did indeed say yes to God.

Michelle Arnold

I don’t think He would have made that choice, He loves all His children, but I have no way of knowing. But isn’t that a scary thought! I’ve never considered this before.

Please forgive me if this is the wrong forum. I’m still somewhat new here!

 

[Soutane]

I came across this while I was viewing the forums:

I don’t think He would have made that choice, He loves all His children, but I have no way of knowing. But isn’t that a scary thought! I’ve never considered this before.

Please forgive me if this is the wrong forum. I’m still somewhat new here!

Unlike the first Eve’s NO to God the second Eve’s YES opened the door to our redemption by her Son.I think that’s where some people get their justification for the word co-redemptrix,a word IMHO that is totally unnessary and ultimately divisive as it is confusing to Protestants and has a totally seperate meaning to them than it does to Catholics.

 

[mariahloves]

For people opposed to honoring the Virgin Mary, this arugment would simply not suffice. Some Protestants do not believe Mary had any say in the matter, or even if she did, God would have chosen to save humanity some other way, making Mary sort of a neutral figure in salvation.

I however agree, I think it’s another good reason to honor our mother

 

[Soutane]

“Some Protestants do not believe Mary had any say in the matter,”

Wouldn’t that make God a rapist?

It isn’t at all Biblical either," “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word.”
Thus, giving her consent to God’s word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God’s grace.

 

[mariahloves]

I’m not like defending it…I have no idea why they think that. I just know what Baptists, Seventh Day Adventists, my non-denom dad and mom think that Mary didn’t have a say…

but you’re right that would make God a rapist in a way…that’s a disturbing thought for people who don’t believe she gave consent.

 

[Publisher]

“Some Protestants do not believe Mary had any say in the matter,”

Wouldn’t that make God a rapist?

It isn’t at all Biblical either," “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be [done] to me according to your word.”
Thus, giving her consent to God’s word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God’s grace.

By “rape” surely you’re not suggesting that by saying “Yes” and thereby giving God her consent…He had sex with her?

 

[stbruderklaus]

I have a very high regard for the Blessed Virgin, and attempt to honor her through her Son. However, I was hoping someone here might educate me on a question which arose in my mind from the statement below.

If Mary was entirely without sin, why did she die? It would seem to me, that she would have to have been subject to sin in some manner like the rest of us, or else she wouldn’t be under the curse of sin, which is death. I firmly believe that God could have preserved Mary from sin for the purpose of the Incarnation, or preserved the Incarnation from Mary’s inherited sin through equally miraculous means. However, what I don’t understand (from a Roman Catholic perspective) is how Mary would have suffered a natural death if she was in fact sinless for her entire life.

Thanks for the help.

Thus, giving her consent to God’s word, Mary becomes the mother of Jesus. Espousing the divine will for salvation wholeheartedly, without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and to the work of her Son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with him and dependent on him, by God’s grace.

 

[Soutane]

I have a very high regard for the Blessed Virgin, and attempt to honor her through her Son. However, I was hoping someone here might educate me on a question which arose in my mind from the statement below.

If Mary was entirely without sin, why did she die? It would seem to me, that she would have to have been subject to sin in some manner like the rest of us, or else she wouldn’t be under the curse of sin, which is death. I firmly believe that God could have preserved Mary from sin for the purpose of the Incarnation, or preserved the Incarnation from Mary’s inherited sin through equally miraculous means. However, what I don’t understand (from a Roman Catholic perspective) is how Mary would have suffered a natural death if she was in fact sinless for her entire life.

Thanks for the help.

Christ died and He was sinless,so,why not Mary?The Orthodox believe in the Dormition of Mary(google it)I myself am ambivilent as to whether she died(according to Holy Catholic Tradition)it is not Dogma.Or whether she fell asleep according to Orthodox Tradition it doesn’t really matter.What does matter is her Assumtion body and soul into Heaven.Now THAT is Dogma.

 

[Soutane]

By “rape” surely you’re not suggesting that by saying “Yes” and thereby giving God her consent…He had sex with her?

Of course not.I hope you’re pulling my legI should have said figurative rapist but it really amounts to the same thing,no?Mary WAS NOT asimple vessel that God “used”.Quakers believe in Free Will don’t they?Well obviously Mary exercised hers.Read the Magnificat:

                   My soul magnifies the Lord,

And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Doen’t sound like much of an indifferent,passive or even unwilling vessel to me

 

[wmscott]

I have a very high regard for the Blessed Virgin, and attempt to honor her through her Son. However, I was hoping someone here might educate me on a question which arose in my mind from the statement below.

If Mary was entirely without sin, why did she die? It would seem to me, that she would have to have been subject to sin in some manner like the rest of us, or else she wouldn’t be under the curse of sin, which is death. I firmly believe that God could have preserved Mary from sin for the purpose of the Incarnation, or preserved the Incarnation from Mary’s inherited sin through equally miraculous means. However, what I don’t understand (from a Roman Catholic perspective) is how Mary would have suffered a natural death if she was in fact sinless for her entire life.

Thanks for the help.

I am not sure if this will answer your question, but this link is from this site. It talks about the assumption.

 

[wmscott]

I have a very high regard for the Blessed Virgin, and attempt to honor her through her Son. However, I was hoping someone here might educate me on a question which arose in my mind from the statement below.

If Mary was entirely without sin, why did she die? It would seem to me, that she would have to have been subject to sin in some manner like the rest of us, or else she wouldn’t be under the curse of sin, which is death. I firmly believe that God could have preserved Mary from sin for the purpose of the Incarnation, or preserved the Incarnation from Mary’s inherited sin through equally miraculous means. However, what I don’t understand (from a Roman Catholic perspective) is how Mary would have suffered a natural death if she was in fact sinless for her entire life.

Thanks for the help.

Also this Site explaines it, just not sure if it will be to your satisfaction.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Christ died and He was sinless,so,why not Mary?

Because sin was accounted to Him.

 

[Publisher]

Of course not.I hope you’re pulling my legI should have said figurative rapist but it really amounts to the same thing,no?Mary WAS NOT asimple vessel that God “used”.Quakers believe in Free Will don’t they?Well obviously Mary exercised hers.Read the Magnificat:

                   My soul magnifies the Lord,

And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.

Doen’t sound like much of an indifferent,passive or even unwilling vessel to me

“Not a simple vessel”… a “chosen vessel” is hardly a derogatory term, “simple vessel” is more of a Catholic characterization of what Protestants believe about Mary than what they actually do.

Yes, Mary had free will…she said “Yes”…and she also said “whatever he says to you, do it.” So for those of us who do not embrace Catholic mariology and anything more than “pious speculation”, we honor her in the highest possible sense…we seek to obey her Son according to her own words.

 

[Soutane]

“Not a simple vessel”… a “chosen vessel” is hardly a derogatory term, “simple vessel” is more of a Catholic characterization of what Protestants believe about Mary than what they actually do.

Yes, Mary had free will…she said “Yes”…and she also said “whatever he says to you, do it.” So for those of us who do not embrace Catholic mariology and anything more than “pious speculation”, we honor her in the highest possible sense…we seek to obey her Son according to her own words.

I agree with you that Mary was chosen before time began and that she was created for that specific purpose,but she still had the option of saying NO.God knew she would not say no but that is beside the point.God did not deny her free will and allow the rest of us Free Will.Denial of free will is rather Calvinistic and reeks of the concept of pre-destination.Eve was created without sin,God knew she would say NO but he did not create her for the purpose of saying NO.He gave her Free Will and fair warning.

“we seek to obey her Son according to her own words”.As do Catholics my Quaker friend

Didn’t she say,“Do whatever He tells you”?And THAT is exactly what Catholics aspire to do.

I hope this thread isn’t going to degenerate into "You Catholics worship Mary ! No we don’t ! Because if it is I will no longer participate because it usually degenerates into Catholic/Protestant baiting.It’s been done hundreds of times at CA.So if that’s the case Buh-bye.

 

[Publisher]

I agree with you that Mary was chosen before time began and that she was created for that specific purpose,but she still had the option of saying NO.God knew she would not say no but that is beside the point.God did not deny her free will and allow the rest of us Free Will.Denial of free will is rather Calvinistic and reeks of the concept of pre-ordination.Eve was created without sin,God knew she would say NO but he did not create her for the purpose of saying NO.He gave her Free Will and fair warning.

“we seek to obey her Son according to her own words”.As do Catholics my Quaker friend

Didn’t she say,“Do whatever He tells you”?And THAT is exactly what Catholics aspire to do.

I hope this thread isn’t going to degenerate into "You Catholics worship Mary ! No we don’t ! Because if it is I will no longer participate because it usually degenerates into Catholic/Protestant baiting.It’s been done hundreds of times at CA.So if that’s the case Buh-bye.

Good, we both agree Mary had free will.

 

[Soutane]

Good, we both agree Mary had free will.

 

[adstrinity]

If Mary was entirely without sin, why did she die?

Because She, like Her Son, CHOSE to die. I think somebody had an aparition (non-binding on the faithful, of course) and She was given the opportunity to die or to be taken up into Heaven as is. She had always said yes to God, and wanted to follow Her Son in everything, so, She chose to die to follow Him perfectly as well.