YHWH Alleluia!

[Freshman88]

The Jews have no say in our Mass. The name JHWH is not used in either the ordinary or the proper of the Mass. It is used in some songs, and its use has been proscribed, not by the Jews, but by the competent authorities in Rome,

I understand this already, I’m a lifelong mass-attending Catholic.

out of respect for Jewish usage.

That is just sad. That should have played zero consideration in the decision.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

I figured that by your juxtaposition of “Alleluia” and “Hallel YHWH” you were equating the two.

I guess you’re asking if it’s permitted to say, for example, “Alleluia” in private prayers during Lent? I would say that’s against the spirit of the reason the word is “suspended” during Lent; I would personally advise against using the word “Alleluia” during Lent at all.

As for saying “Hallel YHWH” outside of the liturgy, the Church is not going to stop you.

But the Son uses the phrase “I AM” about himself (in John 8, I believe); and the epistle to the Hebrews says that Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and always (alluding, perhaps, to the “was, is, is to come”-ness of the Divine Name). The Name describes all three Persons – all three are.

Hmmm… No, I am not worried whether or not the church is going to “stop” me. Some things are right, because they are right – not because one is or isn’t stopped from doing it. I was just curious if such a reason existed here, and perhaps no one knows who has yet read the thread.

God spoke to moses three times, using two different forms of “I Am” – and the third time (at least in Greek) the verb is hidden by “Kyrios” (LORD). I have been told by others that when Kyrios is used in the Greek, that the Hebrew has YHWH. I am also told, that in Hebrew, there is more than one possible combination of vowels which fit between the four consonants YHWH.

I don’t know Hebrew/Aramaic, so, I have no way to verify the details. However, the varied vowels – I understand – refer to three different ways to say “I Am” – I suppose, just as Isaiah and Jesus contain the same essential meaning – God spoke his name to Moses in triplicate.

If that is the case, then God saying , I AM, I AM WHO AM, I Am HE WHO IS, would be the three variations … though perhaps three different variations are meant.


So, If I say Hallel! JAH! (on guarded times) , which person of the trinity would I be addressing? I thought 'Aleluia and YAHWEH address the Father, but after reading other people’s posts, I wonder if perhaps I used the wrong name.

In private Eucharistic adoration (eg: 12:30-3:00AM) when no one is around to bother, sometimes I sing the chaplet of divine mercy, sometimes I just feel inspired to praise God – and the Father who has given his son to be with me. So, I have sung an Alleluia alternated with Hallel Yahweh in the past, eg: because I was led to believe that the particular combination of Vowels yAhwEh refers to the Father. Now, I’m not so sure I was right, and I would feel kind of silly if it referred to the Holy Spirit, and someone has told me a whopper. I plan on learning Hebrew when I get my family situation/duties taken care of properly — but until then, I have to just listen to what the church says – which sometimes is too little for comfort, but plenty for obedience.

You know! that’s another thought!! – “Yahweh, I know you are near – standing always at my side” sounds like it might be improper semantics. I don’t think the father is incarnate to “stand” by any human’s side, rather I thought that was Jesus’ job – and the paraclete (Holy Spirit.)…

So, now I have managed to confuse myself. Who am I praising when I sing Alleluia, and is it the same person I praise when I sing Hallel YHWH? Maybe someone can get an email / (or even snail mail address) for Arinze (sp?) and I could ask him directly. That might be the thing to do. Isn’t that the congregation for divine worship – or something like that? Hmmm…

Happy Advent, the “other” penitential season of the year. Prepare for the coming of the Christ! (Hmm… not exactly a second lent.)

P.S. sorry for my pelling errors, if any, I am not too good at people’s names.

Peace.
–Andrew.

 

[DaveBj]

snip

So, now I have managed to confuse myself. Who am I praising when I sing Alleluia, and is it the same person I praise when I sing Hallel YHWH? Maybe someone can get an email / (or even snail mail address) for Arinze (sp?) and I could ask him directly. That might be the thing to do. Isn’t that the congregation for divine worship – or something like that? Hmmm…

Andrew, what exactly is it that you are trying to say when you are using these forms?

In the Psalms, the word “hallel-u-jah” was a second-person plural imperative, whereby the psalm-writer was ordering his [multiple] hearers to praise JHWH. In this case, the “hallel” is the stem, the “-u-” is the 2nd person plural suffix, and, as we have seen, the “-jah” is the short form of JHVH used in combination with other words.

You state that in your private devotions, you say “hallel JHWH.” I would have to look this up in my grammar refs to be sure, but I believe that what you are saying is a 2nd person singular imperative, telling some one person who is with you to praise JHWH.

If what you want to say is that you yourself are praising JHWH, the form would be “Ahallel et JHWH,” but the meaning is that you are telling someone else that you are praising JHWH. If you wanted to tell the Lord that you are praising him, there is a masculine singular pronominal suffix that would be attached to “ahallel,” but off the top of my head I’m not sure what it is.

The bottom line here is that if you’re not familiar with foreign language, you’re better off sticking with your native language; otherwise, you wind up saying things that either are meaningless or have a meaning that’s completely different from what you intended.

On the other hand, it’s also true that the Boss knows what you intended to say, even if you do get the Hebrew wrong.

DaveBj

 

[malphono]

…The Jews have no say in our Mass. The name JHWH is not used in either the ordinary or the proper of the Mass. It is used in some songs, and its use has been proscribed, not by the Jews, but by the competent authorities in Rome, out of respect for Jewish usage. …

That is just sad. That should have played zero consideration in the decision.

I rather doubt that it figured in to the decision, at least not in the way the comment appears to be couched. The tetragrammaton historically has never been used liturgically in any orthodox Christian liturgy (whether in the East or West), and that is based on the Old Testament. The Universal Church, (both East and West), accepts the OT, and has, from the beginning, respected the non-use of the tetragrammaton. Then came the touchy-feely 1960s and the post-conciliar liturgical free-for-all. Rome is not acceding to another religious group: She is simply reinforcing a very ancient tradition of the Universal Church.

 

[DaveBj]

I rather doubt that it figured in to the decision, at least not in the way the comment appears to be couched. The tetragrammaton historically has never been used liturgically in any orthodox Christian liturgy (whether in the East or West), and that is based on the Old Testament. The Universal Church, (both East and West), accepts the OT, and has, from the beginning, respected the non-use of the tetragrammaton. Then came the touchy-feely 1960s and the post-conciliar liturgical free-for-all. Rome is not acceding to another religious group: She is simply reinforcing a very ancient tradition of the Universal Church.

Thank you for bringing that up

DaveBj

 

[malphono]

Andrew, what exactly is it that you are trying to say when you are using these forms?

In the Psalms, the word “hallel-u-jah” was a second-person plural imperative, whereby the psalm-writer was ordering his [multiple] hearers to praise JHWH. In this case, the “hallel” is the stem, the “-u-” is the 2nd person plural suffix, and, as we have seen, the “-jah” is the short form of JHVH used in combination with other words.

You state that in your private devotions, you say “hallel JHWH.” I would have to look this up in my grammar refs to be sure, but I believe that what you are saying is a 2nd person singular imperative, telling some one person who is with you to praise JHWH.

If what you want to say is that you yourself are praising JHWH, the form would be “Ahallel et JHWH,” but the meaning is that you are telling someone else that you are praising JHWH. If you wanted to tell the Lord that you are praising him, there is a masculine singular pronominal suffix that would be attached to “ahallel,” but off the top of my head I’m not sure what it is.

The bottom line here is that if you’re not familiar with foreign language, you’re better off sticking with your native language; otherwise, you wind up saying things that either are meaningless or have a meaning that’s completely different from what you intended.

On the other hand, it’s also true that the Boss knows what you intended to say, even if you do get the Hebrew wrong.

DaveBj

While I agree (especially with the penultimate paragraph ), a problem I see is that the tetragrammaton was not pronounced in Hebrew. It is never pointed (i.e. voweled) so while we can posit which vowels might apply, without vowels the combination of consonants is unpronounceable. So really any discussion of its use is moot.

Even in modern Hebrew, the tetragrammaton is avoided. Let’s look at the example of numbers expressed the “old way” (meaning using letters instead of imported numerals). Aleph is “1” etc right down to yodh (“10”). And then the fun begins. The number “15” is represented by the letters tet-waw (or tet-vov, either way meaning 9+6) rather than the more obvious combination yodh-heh (10+5) and the number “16” by tet-zayn (9+7) rather than the more obvious yodh-waw (or yodh-vov, either way 10+6) precisely to avoid even the hint of the tetragrammaton.

 

[DaveBj]

While I agree (especially with the penultimate paragraph ), a problem I see is that the tetragrammaton was not pronounced in Hebrew. It is never pointed (i.e. voweled) so while we can posit which vowels might apply, without vowels the combination of consonants is unpronounceable. So really any discussion of its use is moot.

Even in modern Hebrew, the tetragrammaton is avoided. Let’s look at the example of numbers expressed the “old way” (meaning using letters instead of imported numerals). Aleph is “1” etc right down to yodh (“10”). And then the fun begins. The number “15” is represented by the letters tet-waw (or tet-vov, either way meaning 9+6) rather than the more obvious combination yodh-heh (10+5) and the number “16” by tet-zayn (9+7) rather than the more obvious yodh-waw (or yodh-vov, either way 10+6) precisely to avoid even the hint of the tetragrammaton.

It was intended to be pronounced; the Torah makes that very clear. And it was pronounced before the Babylonian Exile; the substitution of euphemisms for the Name was a post-Exilic human tradition. The vowel points weren’t added to Hebrew until some hundreds of years after Christ, which means that by that time there were almost a thousand years in which the true pronunciation had been forgotten, and people were used to seeing “JHWH” and saying “Adonai.” The reconstructed pronunciation “Jahweh” (remember, German consonants) is a best guess by Hebrew experts that are way smarter than I am. What is means, however, is obvious to anyone who can conjugate Hebrew verbs in the present tense–“He is.”

In any case, I ran the references in my PC Study Bible software today, and here’s the scoop on expressing praise to God in Hebrew.

“I praise/am praising/will praise the LORD” is something one would say to someone else, not to God himself. There are several variants, only one of which uses the “hallal” verb:

1. Odeh et JHWH (“et” is a particle that marks the direct object)
2. Odeh JHWH (without “et”)
3. Odeh Jah
4. Ahallah JHWH

When one is expressing praise TO God, there were three options:

1. Ahalleka (one time, if I remember right)
2. Odkha (used way more times than all others together)
3. Odeka (one time)

(O = in “home,” e = in “met,” a = in “father,” kh = ch in German “ich,” double consonant held twice as long as single, final “-h” is consonant in its own right, and it is pronounced)

DaveBj

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Andrew, what exactly is it that you are trying to say when you are using these forms?

In the Psalms, the word “hallel-u-jah” was a second-person plural imperative, whereby the psalm-writer was ordering his [multiple] hearers to praise JHWH. In this case, the “hallel” is the stem, the “-u-” is the 2nd person plural suffix, and, as we have seen, the “-jah” is the short form of JHVH used in combination with other words.

Now, I understand that in Greek, the uppercase letter Y is the lowercase letter “u” – “Youpsilon” which in English is pronounced “u” not “Why”.

:hypno:

And, I gather that “j” in German (Lutheran?) is really pronounced “Y”. The German alphabet, as I learned in high-school, sounds something like “haaa iiiiie yOht Ka EHL EHM EHN OH Pay …”, but the letters in German for the former are just " H I J K L M N O P " — so when yo write JHVH – I am not upset at your not using the Greek (YHWH).

BUT Now, in Greek the tetragramaphone YHWH starts with either an english "U’ sound, and in our alphabet – copying the Greek (partially) we say the letter “U” sounds like “You” – as every child garden(er) knows.
(This is the Kindergarten, Verst… sie? )
And DON’T forget to bringen the “folks Wagon” instead of the “VolksWagon” – for the joy of driving’s sake!

So, when the Spanish pronounce “HeySoos” for “Jesus”, which others will promply say “Yesus” or “Yeshua” — trying to pretend they have a 2000 year old tape recorder –

I simply note the Greek sound alike for Jesus is “Iesus” – as there is no “J” sound in Greek, and “Ie” spoken quickly soundls like the English “Y”! also, in Latin (eg: as in John Paul…). which is written something like “Iohannes Paulus”
Some say “Yohan” — as in, how one pronounces German composer “BACH’s” first name.

OK. But setting all that aside

:hey_bud:

:newidea:

What you appear to say in your post is that, when I say Alleluia! , as in singing it before the Gospel en masse –
That what I am singing is something like “Oh! You-all PRAISE the LORD” – but that no one in church is actually praising the LORD, rather they’re just expecting everyone else to do it?!



How did that ever become the tradition?
I mean if Fr. Jim Stenge gave his homily and said (as usual) – “Laws were meant to be broken” and then added " AllelUUUUia! ", I wouldn’t find it strange that the congregation responded “Praise the LORD, Amen” – but if it isn’t the pastor telling the congregation – rather the congregation telling – ummmm – rather the congregation passing the buck (so to speak) – then, please, :whacky:, explain. I am still a bit confused by the Hebrew. I do get the German…

If what you want to say is that you yourself are praising JHWH, the form would be “Ahallel et JHWH,” but the meaning is that you are telling someone else that you are praising JHWH.

OK, so could you do this – NOT – off the top of your head, eg: could you actually look this up – and point out a reasonably short link which explains the grammar of the Hebrew a bit?
(I am not unwilling to work a bit to get to the truth here, and I would take it as an American Gift, not a German one – to grasp the truth.)

The bottom line here is that if you’re not familiar with foreign language, you’re better off sticking with your native language; otherwise, you wind up saying things that either are meaningless or have a meaning that’s completely different from what you intended.

To be paraGraphOros, now, why (therefore) does the chuch allow the "congregation to sing the alleluia proclamation before the Gospel – especially, with music written by non-Catholics (again).

Now, since you say, “et” figures in there – I will ask “et te Brute?”

Now, I don’t know Hebrew – and I COULD be wrong, but I am having difficulty swallowing this.

It’s like, well, like the bishop saying in a Homily – “As our separated brethren had such a conscientious founder in Luther …” at which I simply say, OK – I can see that one (barely)

But, now when the Greek Orthodox priest (Fr. George Gray – a real down to earth kind of Guy) who teaches Theology 101 at the “Catholic” University of Portand (read: Heretic?! ) he crossed the Mason Dixon line when he said “Luther was just being a GOOD Augustinian”. I reminded him politely, that If I really wanted to argue the point in a Catholic college, I would simply say that the TRUE Augustine is one of the greatest NORTH AFRICANS to ever live. Luther was NOT a good Augustinian.

And I promptly dropped his class at this liberal arts college.
eg:The bad never get fired, they just “invent” ways to justify teaching “semi” Pelagian heresy.

eg: There is no difference between a Lie and a Joke; And Note – if a liar is caught, they will "Always excuse themselves by sayin “it was a Joke”. And like the Priest out here in St. Helens, who said to me regarding disobeying the bishop – “Its only a VENIAL sin, Do it anyway”

:doh2:

As for the University of Portland fans – if anyone meets the head of security – there – just say “anyone who doesn’t promote Augustine is 3/5th a man” (I didn’t but I would now!)
See what reaction you get! When I politely discussed the subject (unlike my last quote) with the (Jesuit – Fr. Pacwa – bragging man) head of security;
He began to pick on Augustine…in favor of St. Thomas.

Well, talk about the kettle! This is no Abe-Lincoln in office!
Remember – the Jesuits are the school rivals of the Holy Cross fathers. Foxes.

(P.S. as an aside – Frt. Yim Stenge(sp?) — a diocesan priest in nead of prayers for his prostate cancer —says his favorite movie is “the mission” – and his favorite scene is the water fall – there goes another Yesuit )

 

[thistle]

Now, I understand that in Greek, the uppercase letter Y is the lowercase letter “u” – “Youpsilon” which in English is pronounced “u” not “Why”.

:hypno:

And, I gather that “j” in German (Lutheran?) is really pronounced “Y”. The German alphabet, as I learned in high-school, sounds something like “haaa iiiiie yOht Ka EHL EHM EHN OH Pay …”, but the letters in German for the former are just " H I J K L M N O P " — so when yo write JHVH – I am not upset at your not using the Greek (YHWH).

BUT Now, in Greek the tetragramaphone YHWH starts with either an english "U’ sound, and in our alphabet – copying the Greek (partially) we say the letter “U” sounds like “You” – as every child garden(er) knows.
(This is the Kindergarten, Verst… sie? )
And DON’T forget to bringen the “folks Wagon” instead of the “VolksWagon” – for the joy of driving’s sake!

So, when the Spanish pronounce “HeySoos” for “Jesus”, which others will promply say “Yesus” or “Yeshua” — trying to pretend they have a 2000 year old tape recorder –

I simply note the Greek sound alike for Jesus is “Iesus” – as there is no “J” sound in Greek, and “Ie” spoken quickly soundls like the English “Y”! also, in Latin (eg: as in John Paul…). which is written something like “Iohannes Paulus”
Some say “Yohan” — as in, how one pronounces German composer “BACH’s” first name.

OK. But setting all that aside

:hey_bud:

:newidea:

What you appear to say in your post is that, when I say Alleluia! , as in singing it before the Gospel en masse –
That what I am singing is something like “Oh! You-all PRAISE the LORD” – but that no one in church is actually praising the LORD, rather they’re just expecting everyone else to do it?!



How did that ever become the tradition?
I mean if Fr. Jim Stenge gave his homily and said (as usual) – “Laws were meant to be broken” and then added " AllelUUUUia! ", I wouldn’t find it strange that the congregation responded “Praise the LORD, Amen” – but if it isn’t the pastor telling the congregation – rather the congregation telling – ummmm – rather the congregation passing the buck (so to speak) – then, please, :whacky:, explain. I am still a bit confused by the Hebrew. I do get the German…

OK, so could you do this – NOT – off the top of your head, eg: could you actually look this up – and point out a reasonably short link which explains the grammar of the Hebrew a bit?
(I am not unwilling to work a bit to get to the truth here, and I would take it as an American Gift, not a German one – to grasp the truth.)

To be paraGraphOros, now, why (therefore) does the chuch allow the "congregation to sing the alleluia proclamation before the Gospel – especially, with music written by non-Catholics (again).

Now, since you say, “et” figures in there – I will ask “et te Brute?”

Now, I don’t know Hebrew – and I COULD be wrong, but I am having difficulty swallowing this.

It’s like, well, like the bishop saying in a Homily – “As our separated brethren had such a conscientious founder in Luther …” at which I simply say, OK – I can see that one (barely)

But, now when the Greek Orthodox priest (Fr. George Gray – a real down to earth kind of Guy) who teaches Theology 101 at the “Catholic” University of Portand (read: Heretic?! ) he crossed the Mason Dixon line when he said “Luther was just being a GOOD Augustinian”. I reminded him politely, that If I really wanted to argue the point in a Catholic college, I would simply say that the TRUE Augustine is one of the greatest NORTH AFRICANS to ever live. Luther was NOT a good Augustinian.

And I promptly dropped his class at this liberal arts college.
eg:The bad never get fired, they just “invent” ways to justify teaching “semi” Pelagian heresy.

eg: There is no difference between a Lie and a Joke; And Note – if a liar is caught, they will "Always excuse themselves by sayin “it was a Joke”. And like the Priest out here in St. Helens, who said to me regarding disobeying the bishop – “Its only a VENIAL sin, Do it anyway”

:doh2:

As for the University of Portland fans – if anyone meets the head of security – there – just say “anyone who doesn’t promote Augustine is 3/5th a man” (I didn’t but I would now!)
See what reaction you get! When I politely discussed the subject (unlike my last quote) with the (Jesuit – Fr. Pacwa – bragging man) head of security;
He began to pick on Augustine…in favor of St. Thomas.

Well, talk about the kettle! This is no Abe-Lincoln in office!
Remember – the Jesuits are the school rivals of the Holy Cross fathers. Foxes.

(P.S. as an aside – Frt. Yim Stenge(sp?) — a diocesan priest in nead of prayers for his prostate cancer —says his favorite movie is “the mission” – and his favorite scene is the water fall – there goes another Yesuit )

How is anyone supposed understand all this gibberish??

 

[DaveBj]

Now, I understand that in Greek, the uppercase letter Y is the lowercase letter “u” – “Youpsilon” which in English is pronounced “u” not “Why”.

:hypno:

And, I gather that “j” in German (Lutheran?) is really pronounced “Y”. The German alphabet, as I learned in high-school, sounds something like “haaa iiiiie yOht Ka EHL EHM EHN OH Pay …”, but the letters in German for the former are just " H I J K L M N O P " — so when yo write JHVH – I am not upset at your not using the Greek (YHWH).

BUT Now, in Greek the tetragramaphone YHWH starts with either an english "U’ sound, and in our alphabet – copying the Greek (partially) we say the letter “U” sounds like “You” – as every child garden(er) knows.

Forget about Greek when you’re dealing with the tetragrammaton. It’s not Greek, it’s Hebrew. And it should be either JHWH (German consonants) or YHVH (English equivalents).

stream-of-consciousness stuff snopped

What you appear to say in your post is that, when I say Alleluia! , as in singing it before the Gospel en masse –
That what I am singing is something like “Oh! You-all PRAISE the LORD” – but that no one in church is actually praising the LORD, rather they’re just expecting everyone else to do it?!

How did that ever become the tradition?

That is literally true; however, the word “hallelujah” has become an expression of praise, regardless of what the literal meaning is. And it was already a traditional expression by the writing of the New Testament–see the 19th chapter of Revelation.

more stream-of-consciousness stuff snipped

[QUOTEOK, so could you do this – NOT – off the top of your head, eg: could you actually look this up – and point out a reasonably short link which explains the grammar of the Hebrew a bit?

(I am not unwilling to work a bit to get to the truth here, and I would take it as an American Gift, not a German one – to grasp the truth.)
[/QUOTE]

I already looked it up; all of the terms used in my post above were taken from the Old Testament.

snip

Now, since you say, “et” figures in there – I will ask “et te Brute?”

Now, I don’t know Hebrew – and I COULD be wrong, but I am having difficulty swallowing this.

We’re talking about Hebrew. Forget about Latin.

more completely unrelated stuff snipped

DaveBj

 

[Huiou_Theou]

How is anyone supposed understand all this gibberish??

Whenever a prophet speaks in tongues, there is always someone to interpret. After reading the previous posts, I apparently went into hypnosis…and replied as if in a trance.

Those who wish to circumcise the thread may snip away, but that won’t save them.

 

[DaveBj]

Whenever a prophet speaks in tongues, there is always someone to interpret. After reading the previous posts, I apparently went into hypnosis…and replied as if in a trance.

Those who wish to circumcise the thread may snip away, but that won’t save them.

Now THAT was funny!

BTW, HT, I don’t know why you have both parts of your screen name in the genitive case, but if you want to call yourself a son of God, it’s huios tou Theou. The definite article (in this case, the tou) is always used with the Greek word for God.

DaveBj

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Forget about Greek when you’re dealing with the tetragrammaton. It’s not Greek, it’s Hebrew. And it should be either JHWH (German consonants) or YHVH (English equivalents).

Bad reasoning. I am not going to drop the Greek or Latin.

The Greek is the most ancient copy in the Christian tradition of the way to pronounce YH. The word alleluia has been pronounced in the Greek church from its’ inception, and was even contemporary with the Aramaic of Jesus’ day. (eg: the Greek old testament – the LXX – being 100’s of years older than Christ had 'Alleluia preserved in it even then.)

The pronunciation of the word remains substantially the same in the Latin and Greek speaking churches – (to my attentive ear). That is as close a proof I can get to the proper way to pronounce the Hebrew equivalents.

That is literally true; however, the word “hallelujah” has become an expression of praise, regardless of what the literal meaning is. And it was already a traditional expression by the writing of the New Testament–see the 19th chapter of Revelation.

After this I heard, as it seemed, the voices of countless multitudes crying out in heaven, Alleluia;
salvation and glory and power belong to our god.

Three points:

1. This is a prophetic vision, and the prophet appears puzzled at the multitudes crying the word “alleluia” – as he says it “seems”…
2. A statement of praise DOES follow the command to praise God. It isn’t just “Alleluia … AllelUUUUia… AhhhhlllleeeluuuIIIIAAAAAA” followed by silence, which is often the case in the present day liturgies. (Now that I am thinking about it, though, I realize that there is often an antiphon spoken/sung after the alleluia. I hadn’t noticed the relationship before…)
3. John could easily be having a vision of the future where he sees US doing this, so I don’t see Revelation as historical proof of its’ usage.

I already looked it up; all of the terms used in my post above were taken from the Old Testament.

Well, then, would you mind citing the passages? I can find a Hebrew Bible online with the Hebrew characters, and a Latin Alphabet transliteration, that at least would give me a start.

Thanks.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Now THAT was funny!

BTW, HT, I don’t know why you have both parts of your screen name in the genitive case, but if you want to call yourself a son of God, it’s huios tou Theou. The definite article (in this case, the tou) is always used with the Greek word for God.

DaveBj

Hint: I do not want to call myself a “son of God”, rather it is the topic I discuss which is fully genitive.

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Joshua 7:20 … εναντιον κυριου θεου ισραηλ ουτως και …

Joshua 7:20 … enantion Kyriou theou israEl outOs kai …
“… had sinned against [the] Lord God of Israel…”

No “tou” here…
Is it my deoderant or something…?

How about this?

II Chron 26:18 … εις δοξαν παρα κυριου θεου

Literally:
into the Glory about of-LORD of-GOD.
eg: ‘to be about’ the Glory of the LORD God.

and best:

2Chro 36:18 και παντα τα σκευη οικου θεου …

and all the scene of-house of-God.
eg: all the things/utensils/etc. belonging to the Temple.

etc.
Greek is rather … flexible.

 

[muffinmojo]

After reading the previous posts, I apparently went into hypnosis…and replied as if in a trance.

Are you serious?

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Are you serious?

:sad_yes:

But understand – that doesn’t mean it was anything supernatural. I am on medication for depression, and last week was a rough one… (+ I think I forgot a dose yesterday)

I sometimes “space out” online to get my mind off of things I can not solve … sometimes I go numb and “stream the digital consciousness” for a while. My doctor doesn’t call it “hypnosis” exactly – her term for it was “obsessive compulsive disorder.” which comes from AnXiEtY! induced primarily by my wife.

I don’t really know what that means, but I imagine it is like hypnosis – because when I reread what I wrote, I sometimes wonder what I was thinking. Then I do it again.

At least I don’t spray the doorknob with Lysol in a repetitive fashion for fear of colds as my wife does. (I am allergic to Lysol anyway)

The items I speak of, though they are said in a funny way so I can avoid being depressed about them (it’s either Laugh or Cry), are none the less – for the most part – true.
No one will believe me anyway – so why not have fun with reality. !

 

[DaveBj]

Hint: I do not want to call myself a “son of God”, rather it is the topic I discuss which is fully genitive.

Okay, I can live with that.

In the quotes you cite in #35, Lord God is like a hypenated name; the definite article would not be used.

You may want to check these out in the Greek. They all have the genitive singular definite article with the word for God, “tou theou.”

Matthew 4:3
Matthew 4:6
Matthew 8:29
Matthew 26:63
Matthew 27:40
Mark 3:11
Luke 3:38
Luke 4:3
Luke 4:9
Luke 4:41
Luke 22:70
John 1:34
John 1:49
John 3:18
John 5:25
John 10:36
John 11:4
John 11:27
John 20:31
Acts 9:20
2 Corinthians 1:19
Galatians 2:20
Ephesians 4:13
Hebrews 4:14
Hebrews 6:6
Hebrews 7:3
Hebrews 10:29
1 John 3:8
1 John 4:15
1 John 5:5
1 John 5:10
1 John 5:12
1 John 5:13
1 John 5:13
1 John 5:20
Revelation 2:18

As for running the verses that I referred to in the OT, I can do that, but not tonight.

DaveBj

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Okay, I can live with that.

In the quotes you cite in #35, Lord God is like a hypenated name; the definite article would not be used.

You may want to check these out in the Greek. They all have the genitive singular definite article with the word for God, “tou theou.”

And hence the particular God in the first two examples is known by “LORD God”, so THE Lord God is not clarifying anything… a particular one is known.

And you are sooo right, that in a statistics contest “tou theou” – “of THE God” is by far the MOST common when speaking of the ONE God of Israel, eg: in the bible in general, and ESPECIALLY in the NEW testament.

Notice the third example in post #35, though, as it is not a hyphenated name to be sure! So, although you have noticed a very common trend – even that has exceptions.

As for running the verses that I referred to in the OT, I can do that, but not tonight.

DaveBj

I understand that one, I’m going to sleep now too…

Peace, and rest well.

 

[DaveBj]

As for running the verses that I referred to in the OT, I can do that, but not tonight.

As promised:

1. I [will] praise the LORD = “Odeh et JHWH”–Gen. 29:35
2. I [will] praise the LORD = “Odeh JHWH”–Psalm 7:17, 9:1 109:30, 111:1
3. I [will] praise the LORD = “Odeh Yah”–Psalm 118:9
4. I [will] praise Thee = “Ahalleka”–Psalm 35:18
5. I [will] praise Thee = “Odkha”–Psalm 43:4, 52:9, 57:9, 71:22, 86:12, 108:3, 118:21, 119:7, 138:1, 139:14, Isaiah 12:1
6. I [will] praise Thee = “Odeka”–Psalm 118:28

There were others, but I stuck to the ones that were in the first person.

If you want to say, “I praise thee, O LORD,” just use 4, 5, or 6, and add “JHWH” (or, if you want to be sensitive about it, substitute “Adonai.”

DaveBj