YHWH (LORD), Jesus & the use of the title "Lord"

  • Thread starter Thread starter ComeHome2Rome
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

ComeHome2Rome

Guest
Does the Old Testament ever use the title “Lord” to refer to anyone else besides YHWH (LORD)?

Does the New Testament ever use the title “Lord” to refer to anyone besides Jesus Christ & YHWH (LORD)?

Why don’t non-Trinitarian Christians connect Jesus being called “Lord” with Him being Divine?
 
I think you will have some difficulty in getting people to answer your questions in this format…mostly because the languages involved are very complex in their use of divine names. “Lord” for example, is almost a meaningless today, where we hear “Lord of the Rings” and “Lord of the Dance”, and “Lawdy, Lawdy” in various musicals and plays.

YHWH, on the other had, is the unpronounceable name for G-d, as you will see that word spelled on many observant Jewish sites, where the name is NOT TO BE NAMED. That’s where the use of “Lord” started, simply because it was NOT G-d’s name. It was a way for Jews to call upon the Almighty without using that most prescious (and unpronounceable) Name.

We Catholics (and all Christians) appropriated “Lord” for Jesus, because He told us He IS G-d… For the Jewish apostles, it would have been a superb act of Faith to call Jesus “Lord”, because of the implications of that title. For us today, it is almost an after-thought to call Him “Lord Jesus Christ”. That’s one of the reasons we need the new preciseness of the revised text of the Roman Missal…so we begin again to use words which mean something or Someone, rather than our “normal” English blather.

I’m sorry I could not answer your questions intellectually; perhaps there are more learned people online than I, who might comment on this subject.

Peace.
 
ComeHome2Rome said:
Does the Old Testament ever use the title “Lord” to refer to anyone else besides YHWH (LORD)?
Click to expand...
In the Old Testament the English word “Lord” is used to translate the Name JHWH/YHVH (former = German transliteration; latter = proper English translit), which is never pronounced by observant Jews; they look at JHWH and say “Adonai.” In this meaning, “Lord” is never used to refer to someone other than God. However, “lord” is also used to translate the actual Hebrew word “adon/adonai,” and in this meaning it is used many times to refer to regular humans in the meaning “lord/master.”
Does the New Testament ever use the title “Lord” to refer to anyone besides Jesus Christ & YHWH (LORD)?
Click to expand...
In Greek the word is kurios. This word is used 1) in the meaning of “Lord,” translating JHWH/Adonai from the Old Testament, and referring to God; 2) in addressing and referring to the “Lord Jesus” (Kurios Iesous); and, 3) as a general respectful term of address to males, as in John 12:21, where some Greeks come to Philip and say, “Sir, we would like to see Jesus.”
Why don’t non-Trinitarian Christians connect Jesus being called “Lord” with Him being Divine?
Click to expand...
Having never been a non-Trinitarian Christian, I cannot speak to this issue. Sorry.
 
ComeHome2Rome said:
Does the Old Testament ever use the title “Lord” to refer to anyone else besides YHWH (LORD)?

Does the New Testament ever use the title “Lord” to refer to anyone besides Jesus Christ & YHWH (LORD)?

Why don’t non-Trinitarian Christians connect Jesus being called “Lord” with Him being Divine?
Click to expand...
Yes, kings are called lord. Also, if you are a slave your master is referred to as your lord.

I don’t believe the N.T. uses lord for humans. I’m not 100% sure though.

Non trinitarians consider Jesus to be God.

Why do you ask?
 
Lisa44 said:
I don’t believe the N.T. uses lord for humans. I’m not 100% sure though.
Click to expand...
The NT uses the same Greek word (kurios) for humans that is translated “Lord” for God, 26 times in Matthew alone. Sometimes it is translated “lord,” and sometimes “sir.”
 
J
Lisa44 said:
Yes, kings are called lord. Also, if you are a slave your master is referred to as your lord.

I don’t believe the N.T. uses lord for humans. I’m not 100% sure though.

Non trinitarians consider Jesus to be God.

Why do you ask?
Click to expand...
LORD (YHWH) is used in the O.T. to replace the Name of God YHWH which means I AM & Lord is used to refer to LORD (YHWH) in the Old Testament. But in the OT was the wword Lord used to mean anyone else besides LORD (YHWH)?

Like 12 centuries later Lord was used for kings & masters, but I’m wondering about Old Testament times & New Testament times usage of the word Lord.
 
lisadonna121 said:
Its means LORD doesn’t mean GOD , what is actually meaning of LORD ?

Linda Maria
San Francisco ,usa
teeter hang ups | genie bra
Click to expand...
LORD is used by many English Translators in the Old Testament to replace the Name of the God of Abraham. God’s actual Name, according to Him is: “I AM WHO I AM” (Exodus 3:13-14 & in verse 15 God pronounced the Name using the Hebrew Letters equivalent to the English Letter: YHWH & at some point centuries later the exact pronunciation was lost, but most modern scholars, & some English Translations of the Bible, say it is “Yahweh”.

In the New Testament Jesus refers to Himself as I AM & all over the New Testament people call Jesus “Lord”. That’s why I would like to know if anywhere in the OT is the word “Lord” used to describe anyone else besides LORD (YHWH).
 
DaveBj said:
In the Old Testament the English word “Lord” is used to translate the Name JHWH/YHVH (former = German transliteration; latter = proper English translit), which is never pronounced by observant Jews; they look at JHWH and say “Adonai.” In this meaning, “Lord” is never used to refer to someone other than God. However, “lord” is also used to translate the actual Hebrew word “adon/adonai,” and in this meaning it is used many times to refer to regular humans in the meaning “lord/master.”
Click to expand...
In many English Translations of the OT, it’s not the word “Lord” that’s used to replace YHWH, but “LORD” & “Lord” is used to refer to “LORD” YHWH. For example: Psalms 16:2 “I say to the LORD, 'You are my Lord…”

You say the “lord” is used to refer to regular humans in the OT, but is “Lord” used in the OT to refer to anyone besides the “LORD” YHWH?

On a side note, I do appreciate the New Jerusalem using God’s Name “Yahweh” rather than the replacement of LORD. Exodus 3:13-15
 
ComeHome2Rome said:
In many English Translations of the OT, it’s not the word “Lord” that’s used to replace YHWH, but “LORD” & “Lord” is used to refer to “LORD” YHWH. For example: Psalms 16:2 “I say to the LORD, 'You are my Lord…”

You say the “lord” is used to refer to regular humans in the OT, but is “Lord” used in the OT to refer to anyone besides the “LORD” YHWH?
Click to expand...
See my post #3. The upper-case LORD is used only to translate JHWH, in keeping with the Jews’ reading it as Adonai. As I said, the actual Hebrew word adon/adonai is used to refer to people, and sometimes to God. Whether or not it is capitalized depends on whether or not it is the first word of the sentence. It is capitalized when it refers to God.
On a side note, I do appreciate the New Jerusalem using God’s Name “Yahweh” rather than the replacement of LORD. Exodus 3:13-15
Click to expand...
The old JB did this as well, and I agree with your comment. It removes all the linguistic confusion, and if we want to, we can look at “Yahweh” and say “Lord.”
 
ComeHome2Rome said:
J

LORD (YHWH) is used in the O.T. to replace the Name of God YHWH which means I AM & Lord is used to refer to LORD (YHWH) in the Old Testament. But in the OT was the wword Lord used to mean anyone else besides LORD (YHWH)?

Like 12 centuries later Lord was used for kings & masters, but I’m wondering about Old Testament times & New Testament times usage of the word Lord.
Click to expand...
I Am that I Am in Hebrew is EYEH ASHUR EYEH it is NOT YHWH
 
Robertwilliam said:
I can read and write Hebrew, YHWH IS NOT I AM, I AM is EYEH in Hebrew.:eek:
Click to expand...
Hi Robert William,

I see that your religion is Orthodox Christian.

As an Orthodox Christian you may have already read the following:

Page 779 of the Orthodox Study Bible in which reads in the introduction to the book of Job: “…God’s covenant name: YHWH…commonly rendered, “Yahweh”.”

books.google.com/books?id=KAh2OOGPsMMC&pg=PA779&lpg=PA779&dq=Orthodox+Study+Bible+YHWH&source=bl&ots=bVa78lRilc&sig=XaD2cVCZDyDr0z-bCNigbQ6IoKU&hl=en#v=snippet&q=YHWH&f=false

“YHWH” is God’s Name: I AM

Blessings,
Come Home to Rome
 
ComeHome2Rome said:
“YHWH” is God’s Name: I AM

Blessings,
Come Home to Rome
Click to expand...
To expand on what Robert said, “I AM” in Hebrew is 'ehyeh, where the ’ stands for the glottal stop, which is considered a consonant in Hebrew and is the prefix for the first-person singular present tense. “Yahveh” (pronounce the h’s) starts with the Hebrew letter yod, which is the prefix for the 3rd person masculine singular, “He is.”
 
DaveBj said:
To expand on what Robert said, “I AM” in Hebrew is 'ehyeh, where the ’ stands for the glottal stop, which is considered a consonant in Hebrew and is the prefix for the first-person singular present tense. “Yahveh” (pronounce the h’s) starts with the Hebrew letter yod, which is the prefix for the 3rd person masculine singular, “He is.”
Click to expand...
Hi Dave,

You are a Catholic so you believe the Catechism of the Catholic Church to profess the One Truth held and passed down without error by the Catholic Church established by Jesus & passed down through the Apostles & their Successors, especially St. Peter the first Pope, to us without error in matters of Faith & Morals.

The CCC paragraph 206 confirms that “YHWH” is Who God says He is & the Name that He should be called. The fact that God revealed his Name as YHWH isn’t up for debate. The Catholic Church has spoken the matter is closed. It doesn’t matter if modern-day Hebrew speakers/writers want to debate it, the Catholic Church has the Fullness of Truth in this, the Name of God, and all other matters of Faith & Morals.

My questions are: in the OT was anyone else besides YHWH ever refered to as “Lord” capital “L” lower case “o, r, d”? And in the NT was anyonw else besides Jesus refered to as “Lord” capital “L” lower case “o, r, d”?

Jesus is say that He is “I AM” & the Jew picked up stones to kill Him for Blasphemy for making Himself equal to God.

Elizabeth was the first to refer to Jesus as “Lord” while He was still in Mary’s womb. For those Jews who believed in Him refered to Him as “Lord” which I see as their acknowledgement that Jesus is God, the YHWH of the Old Testament.

Unless I am missing a reference to the use of “Lord” meant to refer to anyone besides YHWH & Jesus respectively in either the OT or NT, which is why I posted this thread question, I would like to present this to the Jehovah’s Witnesses who will visit again soon, one of whom is an ex-Catholic.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are non-Trinitarian & therefore do not believe that Jesus Christ is God.

Thank you,
Come Home to Rome
 
ComeHome2Rome said:
My questions are: in the OT was anyone else besides YHWH ever refered to as “Lord” capital “L” lower case “o, r, d”? And in the NT was anyonw else besides Jesus refered to as “Lord” capital “L” lower case “o, r, d”?
Click to expand...
You are referring to a linguistic practice (capitalization of the first letter of a title) that is a practice only in modern languages. This question is not relevant to documents that were written in Hebrew, which has no capital letters, and in first-century koine Greek, which was written in all caps. The proper questions are whether anyone in the Old Testament other than God was referred to with the name YHVH (no), whether anyone in the OT other than God was refered to with the word adon/adonai (yes), and whether anyone in the New Testament other than Jesus or the Father was referred to with the word kurios (yes, 23 times in Matthew alone, as I pointed out).

To properly understand this issue, you need to move your focus away from modern languages and look at how words were used at the time that the original documents were written.
 
DaveBj said:
You are referring to a linguistic practice (capitalization of the first letter of a title) that is a practice only in modern languages. This question is not relevant to documents that were written in Hebrew, which has no capital letters, and in first-century koine Greek, which was written in all caps. The proper questions are whether anyone in the Old Testament other than God was referred to with the name YHVH (no), whether anyone in the OT other than God was refered to with the word adon/adonai (yes), and whether anyone in the New Testament other than Jesus or the Father was referred to with the word kurios (yes, 23 times in Matthew alone, as I pointed out).

To properly understand this issue, you need to move your focus away from modern languages and look at how words were used at the time that the original documents were written.
Click to expand...
Well said, Dave. I’m sure part of ComeHome2Rome’s question comes from simple English translation practices, where G-d’s Name may be rendered with a capital “L”, or in some printings, in all capital letters, as “LORD”.

ComeHome2Rome, please look at Psalm 110, where David (author) uses “lord” in two different ways…in English. To identify which is which, you need to concentrate on the language in which it was written, where it may (or maybe not) actually define the word as a synonym for YHWH.

And please don’t get hung on the abbreviations which we use to describe G-d’s Name. The abbreviations are not really as important as our reverence for His Name, as pointed out so well by our Jewish ancestors and friends. I am amazed that a “news” collection of articles, like Jewish World Review (JWR) will consciously edit His Name so it is unpronounciable. Would that we Christians took such care.

Peace.
 
A
JamestheOlder said:
Well said, Dave. I’m sure part of ComeHome2Rome’s question comes from simple English translation practices, where G-d’s Name may be rendered with a capital “L”, or in some printings, in all capital letters, as “LORD”.

ComeHome2Rome, please look at Psalm 110, where David (author) uses “lord” in two different ways…in English. To identify which is which, you need to concentrate on the language in which it was written, where it may (or maybe not) actually define the word as a synonym for YHWH.

And please don’t get hung on the abbreviations which we use to describe G-d’s Name. The abbreviations are not really as important as our reverence for His Name, as pointed out so well by our Jewish ancestors and friends. I am amazed that a “news” collection of articles, like Jewish World Review (JWR) will consciously edit His Name so it is unpronounciable. Would that we Christians took such care.

Peace.
Click to expand...
I’m offering up as a sacrifice that I’ve so far been unsuccessful in asking my questions in a way that is understood.

Some here insist on pushing their version of YHWH over that which the Catholic Church teaches even after fraternal correction & direct quotes have been provided from the CCC. Prefering Pride over accepting the teaching of the Catholic Church and Reverence of God’s Holy Name gets under my skin, most especially when done by someone professing to be Catholic. I will offer that up as a sacrifice too and move on.

What I would give to have my Septuagint back to look at it in the language it was written when Jesus read those OT verses and what the Church has always used since the Catholic Church was established and has always accepted over the newer Hebrew versions of the OT that the Non-Christian Jews began to use after the last fall of the Temple that God had already replaced with the Catholic Church when He split the Temple Veil at the crucifixion of Christ Jesus. The Church has always used the Greek anytime the Hebrew differs from the Greek like in Esther & Daniel plus the various entire books that the Non-Christian Jews removed during their post-Temple meeting in the 1st century. I’d love to see if both the divinely inspired Greek OT & Greek NT use the same word that is translated as “Lord” in English. Even today the words “Ke is ena Kyrion Iison Kriston…” (And in one Lord Jesus Christ…) is chanted in the Nicean-Constantinoplian Creed in Greek Mass. I don’t have the Greek keyboard so had to use English letters to sound out the Greek just like my immigrant grandparents always did for us.“i” sounds like “ee” & “e” like “a” as in A.B.C.

In another attempt to get an answer as my hope is to use the information to bring back a lapsed Catholic who is now a Jehovah’s Witness:

YHWH is either written as LORD or Yahweh depending on the OT English Translation & regardless of which is used, the word “Lord” refers to YHWH as in the verse: Psalms 16:2 & Psalms 110:1 among many references that could be listed. The question I have is: In the OT, does the word “Lord” ever refer to any other person besides YHWH?

Jesus is refered to as Lord by Elizabeth while He was still in the womb of our BVM and by those who believed in Him, like St. Thomas’ famous “my Lord and my God”. The question is: In the New Testament, does the word “Lord” ever refer to any other person besides Jesus?

Although tempted to not ask again out of frustration, I’m moving past my frustration to give it another go. God willing, I have asked this time in a way that will be understood. Blessings to all!
Come Home to Rome!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top