Yoga - not just a benign exercise!

[Garyjohn2]

No, rather, you are ignoring the excellent information provided in this thread.

I have a friend who dates a lot, and gets in intimate relationships. In between relationships she thinks through the last one and then starts looking for a new one. She is divorced, and this is the lifestyle she has adopted. She finds it healing, exhilerating, makes her more physically fit, gets rid of toxins, makes her more spiritually connected, and that being in love brings her closer to God (and the “universe”). That is her opinion, and its really the opinion of the day. However, that doesn’t make it right.

And the last thing she wants from me is an explanation of why that is not God’s plan. She knows that my differing lifestyle has to do with being Catholic, something she has rejected for “spirituality” (as you refer to it). She decidedly avoids the topic with me. I can tell you, she does NOT want to know whether God wants her doing this or not. She would rather instead just go with what seems right to her, and her own experience. Kind of just like you and yoga. You and my friend think a lot alike, actually.

I’m not sure if your quote of my post and your reply to it had anything to do with each other.

Especially the questions I posed a the end, which were the most important part.

I’m not avoiding the topic, like your friend, and I didn’t mention “spirituality” or “the universe” either. Also, I’m not sure what personal relationships have to do with it, or how she may be harmed by yoga in your example. It may really be helping her, and she might be worse without it! I may be a lot like your friend, but probably not in the ways you think!

The issue is that Yoga may be bad because it may be a form of pagan worship, right?
The questions that have to be addressed now, from my point of view, are:

1. Are there other activities that were/are part of pagan worship that we now do regularly? What are they? Why are they acceptable now?
2. What is the definition of worship? Are modern yoga practitioners worshipping when they stretch? What is required for true worship to be taking place?

 

[PatriceA]

Yeah… that’s my experience too! Granted I’ve only done yoga in a gym or dance studio…
I really suspect that the problem with this discussion is that one side (not mine) seems to state that YOGA is a religion, and nothing about the religion can be broken into parts and basically made secular. It’s all or none. This does not make any sense to me. And it’s because those that speak out against yoga do not seem to take issue with the poses that are designed specifically to worship false gods being done under the name of another exercise. Seriously, if you call a yoga class Stretch and Relax… is that ok??? What if you’re playing hymns? What if you’re chanting the Hail Mary through out?

The logic is missing for me… I completely understand the Vatican’s Warning… One thing can certainly lead to another. HOWEVER, you can’t be tricked into becoming a practicing Hindu inviting evil demons.

My experience as well. And I do understand there are very dangerous yoga studios that a Catholic should not participate, but sometimes it really is just a “stretch and relax” class and I do think there are many intelligent, discerning Catholics in this thread that can tell the difference.

 

[Eliza10]

I’m not sure if your quote of my post and your reply to it had anything to do with each other. Especially the questions I posed a the end, which were the most important part…[insert from further down]: … and I didn’t mention “spirituality” or “the universe” either. Also, I’m not sure what personal relationships have to do with it, or how she may be harmed by yoga in your example. It may really be helping her, and she might be worse without it! I may be a lot like your friend, but probably not in the ways you think! ]below

Maybe my analogy was stretched. But I see you don’t get it at all, so I will explain what I was saying. (And I wasn’t talking about her doing yoga, although as a matter of fact she does yoga, and other New Age things… But thats her.) You had said in the first part of your post:

I have heard of many people who have been helped by practicing yoga, and it actually bringing them to more spiritual awareness, and closer to God. This is true for myself as well. The fruits will show its worth.

Personally, I think Satan hates yoga. He does not want people to dwell on spiritual things, does not want people to clear and quite their minds. He wants people to remain stiff and imobile, with toxins building up in their joints and muscles that he does not want them to use…so they feel terrible, and unhealthy, and then eventually draw inward and more selfish, focusing on their own pain and comfort. This in turn makes them feel worse. That’s what happened to me anyways. Maybe we have different ideas of Satan though.

Commenting on the above, I compared your saying that people are helped by yoga, that it is “spiritual” (which you implied when you said its what the evil one doesn’t like) and good for you (eliminates toxin buildup) to my friend who says her lifestyle does same positive things for her. Since it feels right to her, how can it possibly be bad? Her rational for her life choices sound like your rational for yoga. That is the analogy I was making.

I want to say further that the “emptying your mind” thing is something that spiritual advisors say we should be wary of. False religions and cults aim to for you to empty your mind, so they can fill it. Whenever you have a void, beware, because voids call to be filled. So its wise to be discerning about when/where/why/how you “empty your mind”. (In the presence of the our Lord in the Eucharist would obviously be the ideal place for that!)

The issue is that Yoga may be bad because it may be a form of pagan worship, right?

I don’t know that that is it exclusively. Yoga does have a connection to pagan worship, and it has had a huge revival hand-in-hand with the explosion in the New Age culture. There is a lot of crossover with yoga and New Age (and nothing in New Age is actually new, its old stuff, mish-mash of paganism, eastern religions, and ancient heresys.)

Again, I am not an expert on what is wrong with yoga. I have taken classes off and on through the years, the most recent being when I was pregnant, and I have since wanted to take classes, and that desire has increased at the same time I have been hearing admirable Catholics speak against it. If it was just one good Catholic, that would be easy to ignore. Even good, informed, holy, reputable Catholics can be off-base in their opinions on some things even when they are brilliantly wise on most everything else. But when many excellent, holy, well-informed Catholics are speaking clearly and strongly against it, I simply have to listen.

You know, probably a class or two would not be harmful, but I am aiming to get involved in something, and everything is pointing to me to not get involved with yoga anymore, even though convenient affordable classes are readily available. But I am not going to avoid all yoga poses when I stretch.

Moria Noonan’s (I spelled her name wrong in previous post) book, Ransomed from Darkness, impressed me much, but I balked at ONE thing - and that was her concluding opinion against all yoga classes. She spoke from deep knowledge and experience, but I thought her humanity got the better of her and she had to be wrong about this one issue. However, I am now thinking maybe its my ignorance that is the problem.

The questions that have to be addressed now, from my point of view, are:

1. Are there other activities that were/are part of pagan worship that we now do regularly? What are they? Why are they acceptable now?

I am not the pagan/New Age expert but if you are interested in this, Moira Noonan’s book gets into this more. Anything to do with Oprah spirituality, or Course in Miracles, are things to be very wary of, for example.

Also, there are many questionable “expert” pronouncements about the pagan origins of Catholic worship. For example, that we began Christmas because we wanted to imitate pagans who celebrated their Sungod that time of year. No, that is NOT why we celebrate Christmas. We celebrate it because Christians never forgot the Incarnation of Christ, just like the Jews* never forgot* their Feast of Lights!

Many of the supposed “pagan origins” of Catholic practice are HIGHLY questionable. I would not accept any such “expert” notions without some very reliable proof. Our Catholic worship practices have been under the protection of the Holy Spirit these 2000 years, and* He is infallible!*

1. What is the definition of worship? Are modern yoga practitioners worshipping when they stretch? What is required for true worship to be taking place?

If you are interested in what the opposers to modern yoga classes have to say, read the links. I can assure you they wont be saying things like “modern yoga practitioners are worshipping when they stretch.”

 

[Garyjohn2]

Maybe my analogy was stretched. But I see you don’t get it at all, so I will explain what I was saying.

Thank you! That does clear up what you were trying to say. Personally, I think that Yoga is good because it can bring people closer to God, and that is a big difference from just “feeling good.” It can create a peace of mind, or a void as you call it, but filling that void with prayer and thoughts of God is what can make it beneficial. That’s what it does for me and many other people anyways. Modern society is so hectic and busy-bodied…and I don’t think that’s good for people. Yoga I guess is just one way of many to counter-act that. I think it’s a very good way!

I can check out some other people’s links. I think you are right, it really depends on how people practice it. I don’t take classes now, but the stretches I’ve learned in the past have given me a better awareness and understanding of how my body works. It has become part of my nightly routine, which includes prayer, to relax my body and mind and prepare myself for sleep…and for work the next day! Otherwise I get cramps in my hands and back from sitting at a desk all day.

I can understand how delving too deeply into the religion behind yoga can be harmful for one’s faith. I do. But if anyone has issue with the nightly stretches I do to keep myself healthy and mobile…then I’ve got a serious bone to pick!!!

Thanks everyone for the discussions and perspectives on this topic btw.

 

[Erich]

Its a good list. Because we are asked to find points of agreement with people. To see the good, and affirm it. Look at how much we have in common with Hindus. There is a lot of common ground here for respectful friendship.

I haven’t been following this thread, but I received this in an email yesterday and it seems to be germane to the topic at hand.

Research confirms that drinking gives you the same benefits that yoga does: gormful.com/drinking-and-yoga-0

 

[Eliza10]

I haven’t been following this thread, but I received this in an email yesterday and it seems to be germane to the topic at hand.

Research confirms that drinking gives you the same benefits that yoga does: gormful.com/drinking-and-yoga-0

That is hilarious. And yes, its germane! There is more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[faithfully]

OMG… now if you’re DRUNK and in a devil worshiping pose…

 

[Stylites]

I’d steer clear from Kundalini yoga…trying to awaken / arouse the serpent power through one’s muladhara chakra.

The word ‘kundalini’ is Sanskrit word for ‘coiled’ and refers to the action of the soul as it moves upward in the body.

There are a variety of common symbols which have no association to evil.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:...com/albums/dd352/Tag3717/GadsdenFlag1.jpg&t=1
The Gadsden Flag

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thu...tockphoto_2534148-caduceus-medical-symbol.jpg
The Caduceus, a symbol of medicine in North America


The Rod of Asclepius, a symbol of medicine in places other than North America

.

 

[Stylites]

Here’s a new iPhone app for yoga asanas, but they change a few dollars:

itunes.apple.com/us/app/all-in-yoga-200-poses-yoga/id359426393?mt=8

http://a1.phobos.apple.com/us/r1000/038/Purple/94/aa/87/mzl.nnqopzqy.320x480-75.jpg

 

[John7]

The word ‘kundalini’ is Sanskrit word for ‘coiled’ and refers to the action of the soul as it moves upward in the body.

There are a variety of common symbols which have no association to evil.

.

Heya, if you or anyone else wants to release the ‘snake’
starting at perinium by performing repetitions of ‘moola bandha’
(I used to teach this ‘stuff’ in college,
if you need a guru call Amrit Desai boohoo, he left kripalu)
its fine with me, but it won’t get you any closer to Jesus’ Father.

John 14:6 “…no man comes unto the Father, but through me.”
(not through dopey yoga…“ooom” )

as far as snake images…you forgot

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

 

[archangel04]

The OP statement makes no sense at all. There are many positions you can do with the body and do not have to take on a form of worship. In fact kneeling or laying on the floor are form of worship from other religions! This is especially true in the ancient ones, so does this mean that because older religions used this posture it is wrong for us to do? Not at all! God is not limited to kneeling or laying on the floor prayers. When I go on my walks I say a Rosary, and when I do breathing exercise I think of the Holy Spirit, even when I work out or stretch I think of St. Michael and the Archangels and pray to God to make me a strong warrior like them. It is true that Yoga and other “spiritual exercise” are dangerous if one goes in with the mentality of obtaining some inner “god-like” power. I personally do not do Yoga as I see no need for it, but I do stretch before working out and after my workouts I do breathing exercise and meditate on the Holy Spirit. We are told that payer should be part of our daily lives, so payer is not limited to morning or nights kneeling in front of a statue (although it is highly positive to do so) but it can be incorporated to our daily lives especially in workouts.

 

[RCconvert7]

Its not the positions of Yoga or Pilates that are sinful, but rather the “patter” about shakras and other spiritual dreck that one hears from some of the instructors. That stuff sometimes gets into the patter even at places as secular as present day YMCAs.

Please take this as the humble question of a sincere believer (because that’s what it is):

Where is it stated in the beliefs of the Catholic Church that there is no such thing as chakras or energy meridians in the body? It seems like something beyond the teaching scope of the Christian faith. If this is the case, then why are these things evil? If Jesus or the Church never mentioned something, does that make it untrue? If a belief is contradicting a teaching of the Church, that’s one thing, but if it is in regard to something the Church or Jesus never mentioned, that’s another.

From Nostra Aetate, 2:
“The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true in these [non-Christian] religions. It has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the precepts and doctrines which, although differing in many ways from its own teaching, nevertheless often reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men and women. Yet it proclaims and is duty-bound to proclaim without fail, Christ, who is the way, the truth, and the life.”

 

[kozlosap]

So, you think that Catholic Answers Live wasted all that air time on a person who lacks basic common sense? Hmm, that doesn’t make much common sense to me.

I think they may spend their money on whatever floats their boat, but just because a few very closed minded people think that yoga is in line with worshiping another religion does not make it so. As I said before, if you are saying the Holy Rosary while you are practicing yoga, how would that be wrong? A fully developed conscience means that sometimes you have to turn off the radio and think for yourself. I seriously doubt if you asked your priest if yoga was not a good physical exercise to partake in because it was sinful, he would say anything but , “get a grip”. I seem to remember a time when you were extremely sinful and a heretic if you believed the earth was round…

 

[RCconvert7]

I think they may spend their money on whatever floats their boat, but just because a few very closed minded people think that yoga is in line with worshiping another religion does not make it so. As I said before, if you are saying the Holy Rosary while you are practicing yoga, how would that be wrong? A fully developed conscience means that sometimes you have to turn off the radio and think for yourself.:

Thank you! :thumbsup:As a student of theology, I am always appalled when opinion pieces are taken as infallible dogma, or when called on to prove a position about Catholic dogma, an article from a website is presented rather than a document of the Church. More people should be spending time reading what the Church teaches rather than just reading opinion pieces and interpretations on what the Church teaches.

 

[archangel04]

I think they may spend their money on whatever floats their boat, but just because a few very closed minded people think that yoga is in line with worshiping another religion does not make it so. As I said before, if you are saying the Holy Rosary while you are practicing yoga, how would that be wrong? A fully developed conscience means that sometimes you have to turn off the radio and think for yourself. I seriously doubt if you asked your priest if yoga was not a good physical exercise to partake in because it was sinful, he would say anything but , “get a grip”. I seem to remember a time when you were extremely sinful and a heretic if you believed the earth was round…

Although I don’t think they are closed minded (maybe they are) but I think there statements is more to portect those with weak faiths, weak philosophies, or does who are easily astrayed. Again I always admired how some Bhudist monks can “pray” while doing an impossible pose for long time. I have found that breathing exercise has helped me beyond what I could have expected in my workout (I last longer or I have much more energy in daily life) but I meditate on the Holy Spirit to enter/remain in the temple that is called my body. And why not? Praying at any opportunity is a good thing.

 

[RCconvert7]

Although I don’t think they are closed minded (maybe they are) but I think there statements is more to portect those with weak faiths, weak philosophies, or does who are easily astrayed.

I understand what you’re saying here, but as someone who was once a non-Christian, and even a harsh critic of Christianity before my conversion, I would have to say that saying non-truths (ex: each Yoga pose worships a different Hindu god), you neither protect the weak nor give Glory to Jesus. Let me tell you why: First, anyone can quickly search the web and find out what Yoga postures are, namely a system of healthy living, and moving meditation with origins in Indian culture/religion. When they discover thus, the person with the “weak faith”, who is likely already questioning, will be given more proof as to why Christianity is not for them, as it has proven itself to be either dishonest or ignorant. Second, this kind of statement makes Christians immediately look ignorant to those who are already knowledgeable about Yoga, and turns them away from Ecumenical discourse which might be a road to conversion (this kind of discourse was my own road to conversion).

 

[Stylites]

I understand what you’re saying here, but as someone who was once a non-Christian, and even a harsh critic of Christianity before my conversion, I would have to say that saying non-truths (ex: each Yoga pose worships a different Hindu god), you neither protect the weak nor give Glory to Jesus. Let me tell you why: First, anyone can quickly search the web and find out what Yoga postures are, namely a system of healthy living, and moving meditation with origins in Indian culture/religion. When they discover thus, the person with the “weak faith”, who is likely already questioning, will be given more proof as to why Christianity is not for them, as it has proven itself to be either dishonest or ignorant. Second, this kind of statement makes Christians immediately look ignorant to those who are already knowledgeable about Yoga, and turns them away from Ecumenical discourse which might be a road to conversion (this kind of discourse was my own road to conversion).

Well said. The Moonies trail-blazed the concept of 'Heavenly Deception" in order to “save” others, but Catholics do not need to use deceit and lies in order to uphold the Truth.

 

[archangel04]

I understand what you’re saying here, but as someone who was once a non-Christian, and even a harsh critic of Christianity before my conversion, I would have to say that saying non-truths (ex: each Yoga pose worships a different Hindu god), you neither protect the weak nor give Glory to Jesus. Let me tell you why: First, anyone can quickly search the web and find out what Yoga postures are, namely a system of healthy living, and moving meditation with origins in Indian culture/religion. When they discover thus, the person with the “weak faith”, who is likely already questioning, will be given more proof as to why Christianity is not for them, as it has proven itself to be either dishonest or ignorant. Second, this kind of statement makes Christians immediately look ignorant to those who are already knowledgeable about Yoga, and turns them away from Ecumenical discourse which might be a road to conversion (this kind of discourse was my own road to conversion).

I agree with your statement.

 

[3DOCTORS]

A very interesting thread. I had gone to a yoga class at a Catholic hospital in my town, and then later enrolled in a city park department yoga course. Both of these were some years back. My reason was simply for stress reduction, fitness, and flexibility.

A couple from my parish started the recreation center class the same time I did, but they only came 1 or 2 times. I remember wondering if they decided it was wrong, or what; never got around to asking them.

I have had scrupulosity (more when I was younger) enough to question if yoga was OK, had decided that since it was in a Catholic hospital it must be. But just to be on the safe side, I did pray Catholic prayers while I did the poses.

Whether it was a warning from God, or coincidence, I developed severe carpal tunnel syndrome from the “downward facing dog” position, had to go buy over the counter wrist splints and wore them for about 3 weeks. I just kind of decided to drop out of the yoga class and research it more.

When the Vatican document on New Age came out I was really glad to read it. Although I didn’t get from that document a definitive “Doing yoga is OK” or “Doing yoga is a mortal sin,” I had already decided that for me I would not do yoga unless there is some kind of definite approval and specific guidelines from the Church. I hope the Church will say more at a future date; I think it would be helpful to a lot of people.

I also like “relaxation” type New Age music (but I avoid ones that specifically mention chakras, have subliminal stuff, etc.). I enjoy Harry Potter and actually find some Christian themes in it – and some stuff I don’t agree with as well. Discernment is always required. I thank God that I got good catechesis in my CCD classes as a youngster – even if it was a bit strict and I had to get some help later with scrupulosity (but I have OCD so the scruples probably were bound to happen anyway).

I was especially grateful for the link to This Rock. At this time my policy is this – I won’t attend a “yoga” class, but I will stretch and exercise in various ways. I don’t believe that if I accidentally, unintentionally assume a yoga pose (which is unlikely anyway since I’m pretty freeform in my exercising, making it up as I go), I would be guilty of any sin. (Unless I had an attitude of “God, if I accidentally fall into a yoga pose that worships a Hindu god, too bad.” :nope

My attitude is, “God, keep me safe, I trust in You, help me to do the best I can and not be fearful or scrupulous; if I make a mistake, show me what it is and how to correct it, and let my mind be at peace.” (Concept I learned in my initial recovery from scrupulosity, in a book written by a priest and with an imprimatur.):yup:

Hoping this all makes sense. Good thread. New ideas I hadn’t thought of – on both sides of the question. Food for thought.:coffeeread:

 

[jewells17]

Read Marcia’s personal story that I think includes this topic at WWW.CHRISTIANANSWERSFORTHENEWAGE.ORG she is not Catholic but knows her stuff. See what she says.