You and God

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dmn777

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There has been a lot of discussion about various issues from the election to science and unapproved apparitions on this website. Some topics are even banned from discussion. Matters in this life can often distract us from our true purpose on Earth, you could call this the meaning of life. As someone who loves God, life has just one meaning: To use your life to join God in Heaven.

God is very wise 🙂 in fact God knows everything. He knows everything from the creation of the world to the merging of the Earth with Heaven. You could call this the book of life. It is the recording of human history from start to finish. God lives outside of time and can see any point in time. What ever has happened in history was written to happen. It is Gods plan for us. When God acts upon the Earth He does so to help us achieve his plan. Blessed are those who do not need to see God and yet believe.

Sometimes people get very wrapped up in discussions regarding science and the church/God/relegion. Let us take evolution and creationism as an example.

God has created the entire universe for us. God has created evolution, evolution is under the banner of creationism. The two exist and are not mutally exclusive. God has created everything on Earth and everything has a purpose. There are no barriers between you and God. God has great power and can relate to each of us individually in our lives. Your live is an individual conversion to the teachings of God. Talk to God and surrenender your will to Him. No man made intervention is neccessary.
 
yinekka said:
Is the Church necessary in your opinion?
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The Church is not a man-made intervention. It does not apply in this case. If I’m getting the OP correctly, (s)he is speaking about the union of the soul and God and that intimate relationship that surpasses all of these debates that we engage in.

In the end, the soul’s journey into God is not the result of theological, political, moral, or religious debate, but the result of a relationship that is fed by grace and nurtured by prayer.

This is what the saints discovered and what prompted them to live heroic lives of faith. They discovered that above all things the most important thing was living according to the will of God for them.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
dmn777 said:
There has been a lot of discussion about various issues from the election to science and unapproved apparitions on this website. Some topics are even banned from discussion. Matters in this life can often distract us from our true purpose on Earth, you could call this the meaning of life. As someone who loves God, life has just one meaning: To use your life to join God in Heaven.

God is very wise 🙂 in fact God knows everything. He knows everything from the creation of the world to the merging of the Earth with Heaven. You could call this the book of life. It is the recording of human history from start to finish. God lives outside of time and can see any point in time. What ever has happened in history was written to happen. It is Gods plan for us. When God acts upon the Earth He does so to help us achieve his plan. Blessed are those who do not need to see God and yet believe.

Sometimes people get very wrapped up in discussions regarding science and the church/God/relegion. Let us take evolution and creationism as an example.

God has created the entire universe for us. God has created evolution, evolution is under the banner of creationism. The two exist and are not mutally exclusive. God has created everything on Earth and everything has a purpose. There are no barriers between you and God. God has great power and can relate to each of us individually in our lives. Your live is an individual conversion to the teachings of God. Talk to God and surrenender your will to Him. No man made intervention is neccessary.
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Man made intervention is what all non-Catholic Christian religions are. The Catholic Church was established by God and given Authority by God whereas all Protestant churches and other non-Catholic Christian groups were established by men.
 
JReducation said:
In the end, the soul’s journey into God is not the result of theological, political, moral, or religious debate, but the result of a relationship that is fed by grace and nurtured by prayer.
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I disagree with this. Through debate, your convictions are strengthened. This may be one of the paths to God, or whatever an individual’s spiritual goal may be.
dmn777 said:
There has been a lot of discussion about various issues from the election to science and unapproved apparitions on this website. Some topics are even banned from discussion. Matters in this life can often distract us from our true purpose on Earth, you could call this the meaning of life. As someone who loves God, life has just one meaning: To use your life to join God in Heaven.

God is very wise 🙂 in fact God knows everything. He knows everything from the creation of the world to the merging of the Earth with Heaven. You could call this the book of life. It is the recording of human history from start to finish. God lives outside of time and can see any point in time. What ever has happened in history was written to happen. It is Gods plan for us. When God acts upon the Earth He does so to help us achieve his plan. Blessed are those who do not need to see God and yet believe.

Sometimes people get very wrapped up in discussions regarding science and the church/God/relegion. Let us take evolution and creationism as an example.

God has created the entire universe for us. God has created evolution, evolution is under the banner of creationism. The two exist and are not mutally exclusive. God has created everything on Earth and everything has a purpose. There are no barriers between you and God. God has great power and can relate to each of us individually in our lives. Your live is an individual conversion to the teachings of God. Talk to God and surrenender your will to Him. No man made intervention is neccessary.
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But if God created everything, and it all has a purpose, and God knows all things, including exactly what this purpose is: What’s the point of existence? How can we have free will if God already knows what we are going to do?
 
Theres some good points made here. So, do I think the church is neccessary in my opinion.

I think if the church was a pie :cool: , then Jesus had the original recipe and a lot of religions in some way based on this recipe have added their own flavor. :rolleyes:

The teachings of Jesus and the commandments of God and much of that contained in the Catholic church are all wholesome ingredients 🙂

I am concerned when I read here that the church has made many decisions for us and we should be obedient entirely. This sounds like we should not ask questions or question the church. Your obedience is only to God and directly to God, you do not have to pledge your obediance through the church nor do you have to pray through Saints. You have a direct line with Jesus. 🙂
 
VociMike said:
Why do you think the two are in conflict? How does God knowing what I will choose, prevent me from choosing freely?
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If God knows that when I’m confronted between A and B, that I’m going to choose A, how could I ever choose B? I couldn’t. Doesn’t this subvert my free will?
 
dmn777 said:
You have a direct line with Jesus. 🙂
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This is a mistaken viewpoint; that because we have a direct link to Jesus that is all that matters. Jesus founded a Church, not a non-organization of individuals. He did not intend for us to be a bunch of separated individuals connected only to him. Paul taught us about the mystical body of Christ which is composed of all Baptized persons. Jesus’ intent was to have his followers joined in a community with leaders and members with different gifts and abilities to serve the whole. It is through this community of his followers through which grace flows. We are not meant to be a bunch of rugged, independent individuals, but an interdependent body of individuals joined to Christ as our head. That there was a Christian Community that shared in all things, including prayer and the “breaking of the bread” right from the get go is obvious to any one who reads Acts…
 
dmn777 said:
Theres some good points made here. So, do I think the church is neccessary in my opinion.

I think if the church was a pie :cool: , then Jesus had the original recipe and a lot of religions in some way based on this recipe have added their own flavor. :rolleyes:

The teachings of Jesus and the commandments of God and much of that contained in the Catholic church are all wholesome ingredients 🙂

I am concerned when I read here that the church has made many decisions for us and we should be obedient entirely. This sounds like we should not ask questions or question the church. Your obedience is only to God and directly to God, you do not have to pledge your obediance through the church nor do you have to pray through Saints. You have a direct line with Jesus. 🙂
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We don’t even know God-His character and will- except by His revelation. Since people get all confused and divide over the meaning of His revelation, we can’t have certainty about it unless He had established an institution which the gates of hell would never prevail against: the Church- “the pillar and foundation of truth”.
 
Yep Im all for the Christian community of which you speak. So long as open debate on all topics is supported within it and free will - even though we may not agree with the decisions of others - prevails.
 
Nope, God knows exactly what you are going to do. This universe is for you so that you can learn within it. When God acts on the world in the form of apparitions and other miracles it is difficult to say if He is alowing changes to His plan. Just because God can see your life in its completion doesnt take away from your growth as an individual.
 
dmn777 said:
Yep Im all for the Christian community of which you speak. So long as open debate on all topics is supported within it and free will - even though we may not agree with the decisions of others - prevails.
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There is no prohibition against discourse within the Catholic Church. There are matters that have been settled by infalible dogma, scripture and Tradition. Discussion of these points are purely academic, because they are not going to change. They are interesting discussion and these discussions may help us understand why these are eternal and absolute truths. But truth does not change. Only our understanding of truth changes. Anything else can be discussed and may change.

You must also keep in mind that the Church is not against growth and development. Through the centuries she has been the protector of culture and many things that contribute to the humanization of man. She is also one of the staunchest protectors of conscience. One of her greatest preocupations is that conscience is not being properly formed and educated. The Church protects the right to a well formed conscience. Only a well formed conscience can make good choices.

Another important point here is that the goal of the Church is to mediate the graces necessary for man to grow in union with God. When speaking of growth or development, it is imperative that we remember that human growth is incomplete without a relationship with the Divine.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
Yep thats a good point. Since the Church is vulnerable to change and God is constant seek God as best you can and where possible let the church guide you but do not be afraid to challange it.
 
dmn777 said:
Yep thats a good point. Since the Church is vulnerable to change and God is constant seek God as best you can and where possible let the church guide you but do not be afraid to challange it.
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You can challenge the Church as long as you are not challenging dogma. Then there is nothing to challenge. Also, we must remember that we are bound to obey the Church. Even when we challenge, we must be open to the possibility that we will be told that the conversation is over.

Challenge is probably not the best choice of word. A better choice would be to dialogue with a sense of humility.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
I disagree. You are not bound to obey the church. You can bypass it entirely and speak to God with the same humility if you so choose. What utter nonsense you speak JReduction ‘we will be told that the conversation is over’
 
dmn777 said:
I disagree. You are not bound to obey the church. You can bypass it entirely and speak to God with the same humility if you so choose. What utter nonsense you speak JReduction ‘we will be told that the conversation is over’
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We are not speaking about prayer. One does not pray to the Church. One prays with the Church. We are talking about the need for the Church for our salvation.

One would have to deny apostolic succession to deny the need for the Church. Can we really deny the succession in light of the early Church? If you accept the early Church as it was structured then you cannot bypass the Church. This is very clear in the Acts of the Apostles. The Apostles guided the Church and they governed it. Paul’s letters are certainly written very authoritatively. He expects obedience from his audience, because he knows that he has the truth that has been revealed by Christ. On certain issues he brings the debate to a close.

I’m not sure where the nonsense is, since this has been part of our Christian tradition since the foundation of the Church.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
I understand what you are getting at but I do not think the Church is as close to Jesus as it was in Pauls time.
 
dmn777 said:
I understand what you are getting at but I do not think the Church is as close to Jesus as it was in Pauls time.
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She continues to be the Mystical Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. Christ’s promise to the her that the gates of hell would never prevail against her has never been revoked.

With that in mind, we can be confident that the Church is still as necessary today as it was during Paul’s time. We can continue to believe that Christ remains as close and ever watchful of her as he was then. The one thing that he promised her was that he would always be with her.

If you want to get into individual sins and issues within the Church that’s another story. However, remember that even the sins of her members have no power over her union with Christ. The union between the Church and Christ was sealed by his blood. Sin has no power over that seal.

Each of us has a moral obligation to respond to Christ’s call within the Church, not outside of it. Christ does not call us to live and function outside of his body. Christ’s call always begins with "Come . . . " Just the way that he called the apostles and the way that he called Paul and others after them.

Christ calls you and me to come. He means for us to come to him. He has a body and a bride, which is the Church. He would not call us to come to him, but not to his body and bride. That is unreasonable and God is the author of reason.

Fraternally,

JR 🙂
 
You made some good points and of course the church is neccesary today and will be neccessary in the future. Again I agree that the sins of the members of the church do not effect the seal.

I am unchanged in my concern regarding the dampening of free will and questioning of the church. Sure Jesus can be the embodyment of the church, this does not translate to: The Catholic church and its policies are aligned with God. Jesus has laid the foundation for His church and sometimes we build on these foundations incorrectly. The teachings of Jesus and knowledge that Christianity can bring is good. However, we must accept that the church on Earth is governed by men and men are fallable and this includes the Pope. There have ben plenty of times in history where this is evident. The Catholic church is imperfect and does change (one simple example would be the limbo isssue).

You cannot be completely obedient to something that is not constant. Only God is constant but this does not mean that the church has little to offer. Anything governed by man although created by Jesus, should be challanged when needed and any issue may be brought to the table. God has created everything and handed it to man, it is up to us to make what we will of His knowledge and to manage the institutions that are born from it wisely.
 
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