"You are gods?"

[mathematoons]

John 10:34, Psalm 82:6.

I hear people using this all the time when I point out that Jesus claimed to be God. They then tell me that “we are all God” (pantheism).

What do I say to them? And what are those verses supposed to mean?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

John 10:34, Psalm 82:6.

I hear people using this all the time when I point out that Jesus claimed to be God. They then tell me that “we are all God” (pantheism).

What do I say to them? And what are those verses supposed to mean?

Their problem is in saying “we are all God.” That’s not equivalent to “we are all gods.”

From Ps 82:6
Gods though you be, offspring of the Most High all of you,

It is clear that there is a Most High, and we are not it. So we are gods, but we’re not God. We are God’s children. Kind of like godlets.

But we will die like all mortals, the psalm goes on to say.

Alan

 

[Mintaka]

Here’s the psalm in the Douay-Rheims-Challoner version:

"A psalm for Asaph.

"God hath stood in the congregation of gods:
and being in the midst of them, he judgeth gods.

" ‘How long will you judge unjustly: and accept the persons of the wicked?
Judge for the needy and fatherless: do justice to the humble and the poor.
Rescue the poor; and deliver the needy out of the hand of the sinner.’

"They have not known nor understood: they walk on in darkness:
all the foundations of the earth shall be moved.

" ‘I have said: “You are gods and all of you the sons of the most High.”
But you like men shall die: and shall fall like one of the princes.’

“Arise, O God, judge thou the earth: for thou shalt inherit among all the nations.”

First off, what is this psalm about? It is about God telling His adopted children to get off their saintly butts and help people. If we are going to be co-heirs with Jesus, we have to act at least just the teensy-tiniest bit like Christ, because we have taken on that duty. Instead of whining and blaming God for not doing stuff, we should start doing good, like children of God should.

Historically, it is about the poets and singers of the Temple warning the priests and kings of Israel to get off their butts and act like the old Judges, judging the poor and the needy justly. They are God’s representatives and covenant-treaty children, and should act as such or expect dire covenant curses and covenant court cases against them.

We are children of God (big G).

In Middle Eastern languages, the children of a god, or the big god of an area, were gods (elohim with a small e). The pagan Greeks would generally have agreed, although they had terms like “demi-god” or “hero,” as well. The Jews often called angels things like “sons of God” or “elohim” (small e), especially messengers who were making an appearance to carry God’s message. And of course the kings of Israel took on some of God’s rulership attributes, because the true King of Israel was God; while true prophets were pretty much God’s mouth on earth. So in some cases, they could be considered (at least poetically) as small-g gods: representatives on earth of God’s power and love, and children of the Most High. This is a psalm made from that background.

(Albeit Hebrews were quite sure that small-g poetic-analogy gods were not anybody to be worshipped. The big-G God was the only God that got worshipped.)

Now, maybe you’re thinking this is a bit farfetched. But God is the only really really Holy one, and yet we call angels holy. The word “saint” means “holy.” And we call not only the saints in heaven “saints”, but even regular Joe Schmo baptized Christians are “saints”.

So regular Joe Schmo Christians are called by one of the defining attributes of God. We are also called “anointed ones” (Christians), and thus bear one of the names of God. We are little Christs and little co-heirs to the Kingdom, and thus we are sorta kinda little gods. The more we live in the Body of Christ and do Christ’s will, the more we become like Christ. We call this “justification” and similar names, which doesn’t sound like Christ turning us into Christ; but He is the Just One, and that is what we’re trying to allow HIm to do.

We usually don’t get into this, because it’s confusing. But it’s probably less confusing that people should learn this stuff, instead of being preyed upon by Mormons one direction and Jehovah’s Witnesses another, and Muslims yet another.

Over on the Eastern side, they call “justification” much more poetic stuff, like deification or apotheosis. (If I remember correctly.) So they hear all about this stuff, and the Mormons get no traction with them.

 

[Mintaka]

Now, the Gospel passage that refers to Psalm 81/82 – John 10:34-36.

John is talking about how Jesus is claiming that nobody can kill Him without His own consent (10:17-18), which causes some people to judge Him as crazy or blasphemous, while others think He’s really the Messiah.

Jesus heads up to Jerusalem for Hanukkah. At the Temple, people demand to know if He’s the Messiah or what. (Which isn’t surprising, because the whole Maccabees story was sort of a preview of the Messianic age, insofar as they freed the kingdom and brought back Jewish worship.)

Jesus says (more or less), that if they’d been paying attention to His signs and works, they’d know Who He was. But they didn’t pay attention, because they’re not His flock, so why are they worried?

Being told that they’re idiots is a good way to torque people off, but being told that they’re not destined to be super-cool friends of the Messiah is a great way to get people to decide you can’t possibly be the Messiah. (Because the real Messiah would obviously pick them as his super-cool retinue.) The crowd of inquirers picks up stones and gets ready to rock Jesus’ world as a Hanukkah present. (Always lots of stress during the holidays. And the Maccabees were very anti-pagan and anti-blasphemy.)

So Jesus said he’d really like to know which of his good works and signs he’s getting stoned for.

The stoners say they’re okay with all the miracles; they’re just not okay with someone doing super-amazing signs making super-amazing claims. Oh.

So Jesus, being a better Scripture scholar than these would-be stoners, follows up His rhetorical victory by pointing out the long tradition of God calling those who receive the Word of God, “gods”. (So should we stone the psalms for blasphemy?) And since we’ve established by implication that I’m the Messiah and the King of Israel, you should probably remember the equally long scriptural tradition of calling the King or the Messiah a “son of God”, a lot of which are in those same Psalms of David. Duh. (And by implication, maybe you should believe that I really am God’s Son, since I’m calling Him “Father” all the time, and He gives Me all these super-amazing signs to do.)

He finishes up by saying that if they can’t believe Him, they should at least believe His works. This doesn’t appease anybody (or maybe they want to make him king, maybe they didn’t know which), so they try to capture Him, and Jesus slips away because it’s not His hour yet. (No paschal lambs on Hanukkah.)

As you can see, the whole point is that there’s a big big difference between being God, and being like gods, or little-g gods through being God’s people. Also, that Jews also found the whole little-e elohim thing confusing.

But it’s important. Heck, the Serpent fooled Eve and Adam into thinking that they needed to become “like gods”, when they actually already WERE like gods, by being God’s people and living in the perfect garden. We always want some fancier version of things we don’t need, when we already have what we need.

We don’t need to rule a planet and live like gods, like Mormons plan on doing. We need to become like Christ and live in Him. He is our afterlife.Time enough to worry about the details when we’re resurrected. What we should worry about is doing what Christ tells us right now, so that we will have His Life in us then.

 

[Mintaka]

I forgot to add that the Maccabees story included the first time Romans got involved in Israel’s affairs, which sorta had stopped looking like a good plan. And the Maccabees were very anti-pagan and anti-blasphemy, and there’s Jesus making comments in Solomon’s Porch in the Temple. Lots of reasons for tension.

 

[franc1sc0]

First off, what is this psalm about? It is about God telling His adopted children to get off their saintly butts and help people. If we are going to be co-heirs with Jesus, we have to act at least just the teensy-tiniest bit like Christ, because we have taken on that duty. Instead of whining and blaming God for not doing stuff, we should start doing good, like children of God should.

Love it! Make sense to me.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

NAB footnote to John 10:34 -

Quote: This is a reference to the judges of Israel who, since they exercised the divine prerogative to judge (Dt 1.17), were called “gods”; cf Ex 21.6, besides Ps 82.6, from which the quotation comes. END QUOTE

 

[Huiou_Theou]

Here’s the psalm in the Douay-Rheims-Challoner version:

"A psalm for Asaph.

"God hath stood in the congregation of gods:
and being in the midst of them, he judgeth gods.

Yes, right from the start of the Psalm – it isn’t all people he speaks of; rather its the congregations of gods. The rest is out of context in the OP.

And of course the kings of Israel took on some of God’s rulership attributes, because the true King of Israel was God; while true prophets were pretty much God’s mouth on earth. So in some cases, they could be considered (at least poetically) as small-g gods: representatives on earth of God’s power and love, and children of the Most High. This is a psalm made from that background.

The simple example from the bible being Moses himself who is called by God to be god to AAraon.

Hebrew text of Exodus 4:16-17: “He shall be your spokesman, giving out your message to the people, and you shall be to him a God.” Greek text: “You shall be to him in those things which concern God.”

So, it is both understood that Moses can be called god, and that he is not God in and of himself. Moses is the son of Pharaoh by adoption; Possibly Ra-Moses (Ramses). The sun God/fight God is Ra. So, by common understanding of the Egyptians – Moses would be son of god (Pharaoh).

(Albeit Hebrews were quite sure that small-g poetic-analogy gods were not anybody to be worshipped. The big-G God was the only God that got worshipped.)

I agree, but would say “adored” rather than worshipped. Worship and Honor are the same in legal circles – referring, perhaps, to the same tradition of godliness being the name of judges. In the USA we say “Your honor”, but in the U.K. (at least in times past), the title is “your worship.”. It does not mean we “adore” the judge, but that they hold an honor in representing the judgment which comes from God.

I find it more deplorable to hear people say “Oh~! the baby is ADORABLE.!”
Oh well, I’ll never be able to stop slang and exaggeration…

Now, maybe you’re thinking this is a bit farfetched. But God is the only really really Holy one, and yet we call angels holy. The word “saint” means “holy.” And we call not only the saints in heaven “saints”, but even regular Joe Schmo baptized Christians are “saints”.

Up to this point, I agreed, but NOW you went toooowooo far astray.

I am absolutely sure you missed one “really” or two “holies”, your choice…
Revelation 4:8: “day and night they cried unceasingly, Holy, holy, holy, [really, really, REALLY!], is the Lord God, the Almighty, who ever was, and is, and is still to come.”

Peace to you from your brother in Christ,
–Andrew.

 

[Kc906]

John 10:34, Psalm 82:6.

I hear people using this all the time when I point out that Jesus claimed to be God. They then tell me that “we are all God” (pantheism).

What do I say to them? And what are those verses supposed to mean?

I think anyone would agree that if there were any “other gods,” then they would by definition have to of come into existence after the Father. The Father himself is uncreated, therefore if there are any other gods in the universe, God Almighty would of created them or allowed them to come into existence.

But God Almighty states without question that there were no other God’s before him, or after him.

Isaiah 43:10 10 You are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that you may know, and believe me, and understand that I myself am. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there shall be none.

Isaiah 44:6-8 6 Thus saith the Lord the king of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts: I am the First, and I am the last, and besides me there is no God. 7 Who is like to me? let him call and declare: and let him set before me the order, since I appointed the ancient people: and the things to come, and that shall be hereafter, let them shew unto them. 8 Fear ye not, neither be ye troubled, from that time I have made thee to hear, and have declared: you are my witnesses. Is there a God besides me, a maker, whom I have not known?

Isaiah 45:5-6 5 I am the Lord, and there is none else: there is no God, besides me: I girded thee, and thou hast not known me. 6 That they may know who are from the rising of the sun, and they who are from the west, that there is none besides me. I am the Lord, and there is none else

You start your answer by showing how there is only 1 God; scripture clearly shows this consistently in both the OT and NT. The context of Psalm 82 begins in verse 1; it shows how the judges were judging “unjustly,” and showing partiality to the wicked. In verse 7 it shows that these “gods” will die like men; God is explaining to us that even though they wield power as if they were “gods”, they are going to die like the rest of us.

In John, Jesus just said “I and My Father are One;” the Jews were trying to stone him because he claimed to be God. Jesus referenced this Psalm since the Jews were judging him unjustly; just as the Judges of the past were doing.