"You are Rock"- What Translation?

[pake]

In the article “Peter the Rock” on this site, Karl Keating writes: "When you understand what the Aramaic says, you see that Jesus was equating Simon and the rock; he wasn’t contrasting them. We see this vividly in some modern English translations, which render the verse this way: ‘You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church.’

What English translations?

 

[Ron_Conte]

The New American Bible, 1970 original edition, had that wording, using ‘Rock’ instead of Peter: "You are ‘Rock’ …

 

[pake]

Anyone know of any other translations?

 

[RedSoxFan]

I’m pretty sure my RSV-CE compact edition is worded like this as well…

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Hi Pake, The Kepha Kepha thing is outdated. Joseph Fitzmyer who first proposed this construction, later rejected it because the construction does NOT account for the play on words in Greek.

You can find Fitzmyer’s refutation of this construction in Biblical Archeology Review.

Fitzmyer, purposed the aramaic kepha kepha reading in a few books,

Joseph A. Fitzmyer, “Aramaic Kepha’ and Peter’s name in the New Testament,” Text and Interpretation: Studies in the New Testament presented to Matthew Black, ed. Ernest Best and R. McL. Wilson

To Advance the Gospel: New Testament Studies (The Biblical Resource Series) by Joseph A. Fitzmyer

But later in Queries & Comments," Biblical Archaeology Review 19.3 [1993], 70 fitzmyer refutes the kepha kepha reading based on the fact that it does not account for the greek play on words.

Personally, I think Jesus likely taught in Hebrew

google.com/search?hl=en&q=kepha+kepha+fitzmyer+joseph+biblical+archeology+review

sharperiron.org/showpost.php?p=108466&postcount=56

 

[Ignatius]

In the article “Peter the Rock” on this site, Karl Keating writes: "When you understand what the Aramaic says, you see that Jesus was equating Simon and the rock; he wasn’t contrasting them. We see this vividly in some modern English translations, which render the verse this way: ‘You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church.’

What English translations?

The point Karl is making is that in the original language Jesus is saying “you are Rock and on this rock I will build my church”. It is important what Jesus was saying in the original Aramaic, not in Greek or English or any other language.

 

[savedsinner]

Here are some version comparisons from the Blue Letter Bible website:

KJV - Mat 16:18 - And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
King James Version 1611, 1769

NKJV - Mat 16:18 - "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
New King James Version © 1982 Thomas Nelson

NLT - Mat 16:18 - Now I say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it.
Footnote:
a) Peter means “stone” or “rock.”
b) Greek and the gates of Hades.
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

NIV - Mat 16:18 - And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Footnote:
a Peter means rock.
b Or hell
c Or not prove stronger than it

New International Version © 1973, 1978, 1984 International Bible Society

ESV - Mat 16:18 - “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Footnote:
a Peter sounds like the Greek word for rock
b Greek the gates of Hades

The Holy Bible, English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles

NASB - Mat 16:18 - "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
New American Standard Bible © 1995 Lockman Foundation

RSV - Mat 16:18 - And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
Revised Standard Version © 1947, 1952.

New American Bible - Mat 16:18 - And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
New American Bible November 11, 2002 Copyright © by United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

ASV - Mat 16:18 - And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
American Standard Version 1901 Info

Young - Mat 16:18 - `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;
Robert Young Literal Translation 1862, 1887, 1898 Info

Darby - Mat 16:18 - And I also, I say unto thee that thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades’ gates shall not prevail against it.
J.N.Darby Translation 1890 Info

Webster - Mat 16:18 - And I say also to thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church: and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Noah Webster Version 1833 Info

HNV - Mat 16:18 - I also tell you that you are Rock, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and the gates of She’ol will not prevail against it.
Hebrew Names Version 2000 Info

Vulgate - Mat 16:18 - et ego dico tibi quia tu es Petrus et super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam et portae inferi non praevalebunt adversum eam
Jerome’s Latin Vulgate 405 A.D. Info

 

[Sabda]

I’m pretty sure my RSV-CE compact edition is worded like this as well…

I also have a RSV-CE compact edition and mine says “Peter…rock.”

In the Strong’s concordance it states that petra is the same as petro. This is the very first sentence. Also petro is bigger than lithos, which has the definition of being a millstone among others. If a millstone can be used to drown someone than petros is most certainly not some little pebble.

If you check the French translation on Biblegateway you will see that they use the same word in both places. I don’t speak or read French but to me it’s pretty obvious.

 

[pake]

It seems that it’s the older version of the HNV.

 

[pake]

The New American Bible, 1970 original edition, had that wording, using ‘Rock’ instead of Peter: "You are ‘Rock’ …

Does anyone know where the NAB 1970 edition is available online? The only one I have found has “Peter” instead of rock.

 

[patrick457]

Does anyone know where the NAB 1970 edition is available online? The only one I have found has “Peter” instead of rock.

As far as I know, the 1970 (first) edition of the NAB is not available online (the one on the USCCB and online is perhaps the 1986 edition which restored some familiar phraseology on the NT yet introduced some inclusive language on the text, though I’m not sure)

 

[ronyodish]

Hi everyone,

Jesus spoke with, and taught, His disciples in the Aramaic language. Here is an example of the Syriac/Aramaic Peshitto Bible on Matt. 16:18

ܐܦ ܐܢܐ ܐܡܪ ܐܢܐ ܠܟ ܕܐܢܬ ܗܘ ܟܐܦܐ ܘܥܠ ܗܕܐ ܟܐܦܐ ܐܒܢܝܗ ܠܥܕܬܝ ܘܬܪܥܐ ܕܫܝܘܠ ܠܐ ܢܚܤܢܘܢܗ

The word in red means rock or stone. It’s the same word in both places. The way it is pronunced various slightly, but the Chaldeans, such as myself, pronounce it as Kepa. It’s made up of four letters: Kap, Alep, Peh, Alep.

The above script is not my favorite. I prefer this script here. It’s a website put together by an Assyrian. On the left side, under Interlinear NT, under Mattai, click on Ch. 16 (pdf file), and look at verse 18.

Some English translations of the Peshitta (or Peshitto) here:

Lamsa
Murdock
Etheridge
Aramaic English Standard Version

God bless,

Rony

 

[patrick457]

Hi everyone,

Jesus spoke with, and taught, His disciples in the Aramaic language. Here is an example of the Syriac/Aramaic Peshitto Bible on Matt. 16:18

ܐܦ ܐܢܐ ܐܡܪ ܐܢܐ ܠܟ ܕܐܢܬ ܗܘ ܟܐܦܐ ܘܥܠ ܗܕܐ ܟܐܦܐ ܐܒܢܝܗ ܠܥܕܬܝ ܘܬܪܥܐ ܕܫܝܘܠ ܠܐ ܢܚܤܢܘܢܗ

The word in red means rock or stone. It’s the same word in both places. The way it is pronunced various slightly, but the Chaldeans, such as myself, pronounce it as Kepa. It’s made up of four letters: Kap, Alep, Peh, Alep.

The above script is not my favorite. I prefer this script here. It’s a website put together by an Assyrian. On the left side, under Interlinear NT, under Mattai, click on Ch. 16 (pdf file), and look at verse 18.

Some English translations of the Peshitta (or Peshitto) here:

Lamsa
Murdock
Etheridge
Aramaic English Standard Version

God bless,

Rony

Thanks for the links, though I do not have Syriac fonts on my computer so the text just appears as a bunch of question marks to me. Care to convert the text into image or at least, provide a transliteration?

 

[ronyodish]

Thanks for the links, though I do not have Syriac fonts on my computer so the text just appears as a bunch of question marks to me. Care to convert the text into image or at least, provide a transliteration?

patrick457,

Click here

Top row: Estrangela script
2nd row: Chaldean script
3rd row: Transliteration
4th row: Translation

God bless,

Rony

 

[Sabda]

Thanks for the links, though I do not have Syriac fonts on my computer so the text just appears as a bunch of question marks to me. Care to convert the text into image or at least, provide a transliteration?

If you want to see the words it’s really easy to do with Windows.

Go to Control Panel
Click on Date, Time, Language, and Regional Options
Click on Add Other Languages
In the Supplemental Languages box check for installing files for complex script and left to right languages. It will come up with a box letting you know that this will add Aramaic, Hebrew, and several other languages, click ok. It will also ask you for your Windows disk. Once you add that and it installs what it needs from the disk your done.

I did this when I downloaded the Interlinear Bible to my computer. This way I can see what the Hebrew and Greek look like. I can also see ronyodish’s post.

 

[patrick457]

If you want to see the words it’s really easy to do with Windows.

Go to Control Panel
Click on Date, Time, Language, and Regional Options
Click on Add Other Languages
In the Supplemental Languages box check for installing files for complex script and left to right languages. It will come up with a box letting you know that this will add Aramaic, Hebrew, and several other languages, click ok. It will also ask you for your Windows disk. Once you add that and it installs what it needs from the disk your done.

I did this when I downloaded the Interlinear Bible to my computer. This way I can see what the Hebrew and Greek look like. I can also see ronyodish’s post.

Thanks, though we have a bit of problems here:

-My OS is still Windows 98
-I do not have the Windows CD near me (it’s hidden somewhere)

I guess I’m doomed…