You are the Son of God!

[worldwideweary]

Luke 4:41 is referenced (Σὺ εἶ ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ).
When the demons were crying out and saying this, does this mean the demons knew of the Divine Trinity, or is the reader/listener to equate this recognition with that of the Roman soldier who said practically the same thing in, e.g., Matthew 27:54 (Θεοῦ Υἱὸς ἦν οὗτος)?

Ciao for now.

 

[Techno2000]

Luke 4:41 is referenced (Σὺ εἶ ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ).
When the demons were crying out and saying this, does this mean the demons knew of the Divine Trinity, or is the reader/listener to equate this recognition with that of the Roman soldier who said practically the same thing in, e.g., Matthew 27:54 (Θεοῦ Υἱὸς ἦν οὗτος)?

Ciao for now.

I would say the Trinity was, and still is a Mystery for man and demons.

 

[SJacob7]

All demons Jesus encountered knew who He was. They never questioned it. It was man that had a hard time believing Jesus.

 

[James248]

All demons Jesus encountered knew who He was. They never questioned it. It was man that had a hard time believing Jesus.

Not even Satan knew of His Divinity when he tempted Him. “If You are the Son of God…”

 

[worldwideweary]

Not even Satan knew of His Divinity when he tempted Him. “If You are the Son of God…”

To be precise, to postulate an “if” doesn’t necessitate a lack of knowledge, but possibly a lack of knowing what the response would be, or at least a curiosity.
In no way is this a defense of such a one!

P.S. This might lend a proof toward the mere saying as quoted in Luke as being only that, a saying. Maybe they were commanded to say what they said, but that raises a serious question not part of the topic

 

[James248]

To be precise, to postulate an “if” doesn’t necessitate a lack of knowledge, but possibly a lack of knowing what the response would be, or at least a curiosity.
In no way is this a defense of such a one!

P.S. This might lend a proof toward the mere saying as quoted in Luke as being only that, a saying. Maybe they were commanded to say what they said, but that raises a serious question not part of the topic

Or Satan really didn’t know who He was.

 

[worldwideweary]

Remember that just prior to the temptation are the words in, for example Mark 1:11 (Douay) “You are my beloved Son; in you I am well pleased.” Whatever that may mean to ahem is another story, supposing it was “perceived”.

 

[James248]

Remember that just prior to the temptation are the words in, for example Mark 1:11 (Douay) “You are my beloved Son; in you I am well pleased.” Whatever that may mean to ahem is another story, supposing it was “perceived”.

Satan still may have assumed that God had abandoned Him when He was left hungry and vulnerable to animals after those 40 days.

 

[worldwideweary]

I would say the Trinity was, and still is a Mystery for man and demons.

Although it is a mystery, does this mean the words do not refer to this mystery in intention, or does it mean it refers to some sort of other theological concept or political concept? If so, what theological/political concept is this, precisely?

 

[jcrichton]

Luke 4:41 is referenced (Σὺ εἶ ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ).
When the demons were crying out and saying this, does this mean the demons knew of the Divine Trinity, or is the reader/listener to equate this recognition with that of the Roman soldier who said practically the same thing in, e.g., Matthew 27:54 (Θεοῦ Υἱὸς ἦν οὗτος)?

Ciao for now.

Hi!

…by now you must know that I’m far from knowledgeable about Biblical languages…

Here’s my pedestrian understanding:

1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things came to be, not one thing had its being but through him.

(St. John 1:1-3)

10 It was this salvation that the prophets were looking and searching so hard for; their prophecies were about the grace which was to come to you. 11 The Spirit of Christ which was in them foretold the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would come after them, and they tried to find out at what time and in what circumstances all this was to be expected. 12 It was revealed to them that the news they brought of all the things which have now been announced to you, by those who preached to you the Good News through the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, was for you and not for themselves. Even the angels long to catch a glimpse of these things. (1 St. Peter 1:10-12)

28 When he reached the country of the Gadarenes on the other side, two demoniacs came towards him out of the tombs – creatures so fierce that no one could pass that way. 29 They stood there shouting, ‘What do you want with us, Son of God? Have you come here to torture us before the time?’ (St. Matthew 8:28-29)

23 In their synagogue just then there was a man possessed by an unclean spirit and it shouted, 24 ‘What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are: the Holy One of God.’ 25 But Jesus said sharply, ‘Be quiet! Come out of him!’ 26 And the unclean spirit threw the man into convulsions and with a loud cry went out of him. (St. Mark 1:23-26)

6 ‘If you are the Son of God’ he said ‘throw yourself down; for scripture says: He will put you in his angels’ charge, and they will support you on their hands in case you hurt your foot against a stone’. 7 Jesus said to him, ‘Scripture also says: You must not put the Lord your God to the test’ 8 Next, taking him to a very high mountain, the devil showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendour. 9 ‘I will give you all these’ he said, ‘if you fall at my feet and worship me.’ 10 Then Jesus replied, ‘Be off, Satan! For scripture says: You must worship the Lord your God, and serve him alone.’ 11 Then the devil left him, and angels appeared and looked after him. (St. Matthew 4:6-11)
It is clear from Scriptures that the angels, which would include Lucifer–before the Battle, are fully aware of Yahweh God’s Triune Existence (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Not even Satan knew of His Divinity when he tempted Him. “If You are the Son of God…”

Hi, James!

…actually… he did! It is the reason why he made such temptations… Satan sought to derail God’s Salvific Plan by conning Jesus into Revealing His Divinity… note that the they are in a desert and all of the sudden the devil (a spiritual being) brings them to the top of the Temple (temple wall?)… then we have a very telling sign:

10 Then Jesus replied, ‘Be off, Satan! For scripture says: You must worship the Lord your God, and serve him alone.’ 11 Then the devil left him, and angels appeared and looked after him.

(St. Matthew 4:10-11)
…Jesus suffered Satan’s provocations… yet, once He had enough, He Commanded Satan to remove himself from His Presence… the Ancient Serpent simply obeyed!

Conversely, Satan’s minions also knew:

24 ‘What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are: the Holy One of God.’

(St. Mark 1:24)
The Jehovah Witnesses attempt to use Jesus’ temptation in the desert to insinuate that that is proof that Jesus is not Divine… an huge error of eisegesis!

Compare with:

3 For I am Yahweh, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your savior.

(Isaiah 43:3)

18 We know that anyone who has been begotten by God does not sin, because the begotten Son of God protects him, and the Evil One does not touch him. 19 We know that we belong to God, but the whole world lies in the power of the Evil One. 20 We know, too, that the Son of God has come, and has given us the power to know the true God. We are in the true God, as we are in his Son, Jesus Christ. This is the true God, this is eternal life. (1 St. John 5:18-20)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Wesrock]

Son of God is also a messianic title, and I don’t think it’s si clear cut that Satan knew. Frank Sheed in To Know Christ Jesus thinks he didn’t know.

Messianic expectations at the time varied widely, from a temporal kingdom to an angel of God. Satan’s tests can be seen to start by testing to see if he has control over matter (changing rocks into bread) and having powers beyond a normal man, to baser expectations of a more temporal actor (be saved by angels, rule the world). I think Satan expected him to be the messiah, but it’s quite possible that he never expected God become flesh.

 

[worldwideweary]

Hi!

…by now you must know that I’m far from knowledgeable about Biblical languages…

P.S. Jcrichton: biblehub.com has multiple languages/translations available quickly, and quick little on-line systems such as translate.google.com can be simultaneously utilized if you find the time and interest in doing so; it’s also sort of fun
See ya.

 

[patrick457]

Luke 4:41 is referenced (Σὺ εἶ ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ).
When the demons were crying out and saying this, does this mean the demons knew of the Divine Trinity, or is the reader/listener to equate this recognition with that of the Roman soldier who said practically the same thing in, e.g., Matthew 27:54 (Θεοῦ Υἱὸς ἦν οὗτος)?

Ciao for now.

This is actually a running theme in the gospel of Mark.

Mark’s gospel right off the bat proclaims Jesus to be “son of God,” but right up until the end no human character ever calls Jesus such. The centurion - a non-Jew who oversaw Jesus’ execution! - actually turns out to be the very first human being in Mark to call Jesus “son of God;” up until then, the only ones who proclaim Jesus to be God’s son are supernatural beings such as the Voice from heaven or the demons Jesus exorcised. Not even Peter calls Jesus ‘son of God’ in Mark as he does in Matthew.

This is a case of dramatic irony: the non-human characters - God, the demons - all know who Jesus is, we the readers know who Jesus is (because the opening words of the gospel have already given the spoilers), but the human characters Jesus interacts with don’t know who He is. Only one human realizes who He is after He had just died - after seeing Him die, in fact. And Jesus’ death in Mark isn’t exactly the type that at first glance would be able to produce such a confession either: Jesus in Mark suffers a rather ignominious death with a scream.

 

[worldwideweary]

This is actually a running theme in the gospel of Mark.

This makes the reader wonder if there’s a connection between the “legion” of the demons and the Romans, but that might just be a fanciful stretch.

For some strange reason this passage comes to mind from 1 Maccabees 8:23 - (Original Douay Caps) GOOD SUCCESS BE TO THE ROMANS, and to the people of the Jews, by sea and by land for ever: and far be the sword and enemy from them.

 

[jcrichton]

Son of God is also a messianic title, and I don’t think it’s si clear cut that Satan knew. Frank Sheed in To Know Christ Jesus thinks he didn’t know.

Messianic expectations at the time varied widely, from a temporal kingdom to an angel of God. Satan’s tests can be seen to start by testing to see if he has control over matter (changing rocks into bread) and having powers beyond a normal man, to baser expectations of a more temporal actor (be saved by angels, rule the world). I think Satan expected him to be the messiah, but it’s quite possible that he never expected God become flesh.

Hi!

…the problem with such premise is that it removes the Eternal Existence of Christ as the Word that Existed from the Beginning with God and that was God.

…it is as though Jesus came into being in the Incarnation of the Word but the Word did not exist in Divinity.

…the Jehovah Witnesses have some sort of contortion where the “Word” (Logos) is said to be placed in effect… much like a domino piece… but not to share in the Divinity of the Father and the Holy Spirit.

What is Revealed to St. Peter and others is that the Word Existed with God and was God from the Beginning… what the prophets and angels did not Know was the appointed time and the conditions (temporal accidents)… further, your understanding must then allow for multiple encounters where Satan tests one man after the other to see if “that one” is the Messiah, the Immanuel (God-with-us).

Consider John the Baptist’s query, through two of his disciples: ‘are you the one or must we await another?’

Clearly John did not Know Jesus (some good hearted people have them playing together as children) but the Revelation he Received was that Jesus was in deed the Lamb of God (the awaited Messiah). However, John knew that his disciples would have a hard time turning to Jesus so he sent ambassadors to be Convicted of the Truth: ‘…tell him, the blind see, the lame walk, the Good News has been brought to the people…’

…in the blink of an eye Satan takes Jesus from the wilderness/desert to the highest point on the Temple to a high mountain top:

4 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.

(St. Matthew 4:5, 8)
…either Scriptures are talking about extra-human experiences or the account on this Scriptural passage took several hours/days; would Satan really expose humans to such supernatural experiences and God simply allows him to test one man after another… till he gets it right?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[steve_b]

luke 4:41 is referenced (Σὺ εἶ ὁ Υἱὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ).
When the demons were crying out and saying this, does this mean the demons knew of the divine trinity, or is the reader/listener to equate this recognition with that of the roman soldier ***who said practically the same thing ***in, e.g., matthew 27:54 (Θεοῦ Υἱὸς ἦν οὗτος)?

ciao for now.

Isn’t it a distinction without a difference? Both recognized Jesus for who He is.

Lk 4:41
demons also came out of many, crying, ***“You are the Son of God!” ***But he rebuked them, and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ.

Mt 27:54
54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe, and said, “Truly this was the Sona] of God!”

 

[worldwideweary]

Isn’t it a distinction without a difference? Both recognized Jesus for who He is.

Although the language is the same, the implication seems to be different. An illustration of this is found in Matthew rather than Mark (Matthew 14:33) when Jesus is walking on water and catches Peter when he doubts, begins to sink, and yells Save me! Afterwards, they get on the boat, the wind dies down, and the people worship him while saying say Truly You are the Son of God. Although it would be a stretch to equate these people to the next chapter, it is interesting that there we have a juxtaposition of Jesus saying In vain do these people worship me and These people honor me with their lips but not in their hearts. He says Hear and understand before saying a parable, and yet still Peter has to ask Jesus to explain the parable! Peter doesn’t understand the parable, yet right before hand everyone was saying You are the Son of God. It is hard to comprehend that they would understand what “Son of God” meant yet not understand a simple parable when being told to “understand” before saying it. Even more interesting is that Peter says You are the Christ, the son of the living God, which is said to have been revealed by God the Father to him, right before Jesus rebukes him for his expression of non-acceptance of his death and says Get behind me, Satan! To top this off, we have Peter who doesn’t even know what he’s saying (Matthew doesn’t say this but the others do) a little afterwards during the Transfiguration when he offers to build tents when seeing Elijah and Moses with Jesus. There’s also something strange, almost in reverse if you will, about Peter’s testifying to Jesus’ being the “Son of the living God” as being revealed by the Father just a moment ago, yet there’s a revelation of these words afterwards on the mountain from the cloud.

All this illustrates a certain strange “revelation” met with a non-comprehension to not even knowing what is being said, and it raises issues as to the distinction of what words actually signify and for whom throughout the Gospels.

:twocents:

 

[jcrichton]

Although the language is the same, the implication seems to be different. An illustration of this is found in Matthew rather than Mark (Matthew 14:33) when Jesus is walking on water and catches Peter when he doubts, begins to sink, and yells Save me! Afterwards, they get on the boat, the wind dies down, and the people worship him while saying say Truly You are the Son of God. Although it would be a stretch to equate these people to the next chapter, it is interesting that there we have a juxtaposition of Jesus saying In vain do these people worship me and These people honor me with their lips but not in their hearts. He says Hear and understand before saying a parable, and yet still Peter has to ask Jesus to explain the parable! Peter doesn’t understand the parable, yet right before hand everyone was saying You are the Son of God. It is hard to comprehend that they would understand what “Son of God” meant yet not understand a simple parable when being told to “understand” before saying it. Even more interesting is that Peter says You are the Christ, the son of the living God, which is said to have been revealed by God the Father to him, right before Jesus rebukes him for his expression of non-acceptance of his death and says Get behind me, Satan! To top this off, we have Peter who doesn’t even know what he’s saying (Matthew doesn’t say this but the others do) a little afterwards during the Transfiguration when he offers to build tents when seeing Elijah and Moses with Jesus. There’s also something strange, almost in reverse if you will, about Peter’s testifying to Jesus’ being the “Son of the living God” as being revealed by the Father just a moment ago, yet there’s a revelation of these words afterwards on the mountain from the cloud.

All this illustrates a certain strange “revelation” met with a non-comprehension to not even knowing what is being said, and it raises issues as to the distinction of what words actually signify and for whom throughout the Gospels.

:twocents:

Hi!

…I think you are speaking on two distinct issues… there’s the issue of what they Believe (the Power/Knowledge demonstrated by Jesus) and there’s the issue of what they experience (Jesus walking, drinking, eating, resting, sleeping…); they know, from Scriptures, about the power that the prophets were given and that they eventually died…

…they cannot separate Jesus from what they understand as human limitations… they also cannot but credit Jesus for what they understand as super/above human power and connection with the Divine.

Even the Eleven wrestle with this conundrum… it is why Jesus Reveals:

12 I still have many things to say to you but they would be too much for you now. 13 But when the Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth, since he will not be speaking as from himself but will say only what he has learnt; and he will tell you of the things to come. 14 He will glorify me, since all he tells you will be taken from what is mine. 15 Everything the Father has is mine; that is why I said: All he tells you will be taken from what is mine.

(St. John 16:12-15)
…even this very passage can prove to be a huge conundrum!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[worldwideweary]

there’s the issue of what they Believe
and there’s the issue of what they experience

You’re right.
This distinction of belief and experience is very important for all of us.
Wouldn’t it be nice for them to be in unity?