you believe the pope will answer

[onHisteam]

continued …

The wonderful elderly lady is a great example for all of us that we are nowhere near ‘the boat’.
I’m nowhere near a boat,

ffg, to say that you are no where near the boat means you are always in the water, I very much doubt that is true,
You go to confession right?
When you say your penance you are forgiven right?
If you are forgiven you are in a state of grace at that moment in time, right?
well then, right then after confession you are in the boat…forgiven, right?..

God save me, please.

Prayer has been answered, hasn’t it?
Here is why I believe it,
I assume you said yes to my questions…
if you were to die right then right after you went to confession, you would spend eternity in heaven
You might, as you believe, be purged in purgatory and then onto Glory, right?

The difference between you and I is, I do not believe in purgatory, but the end result is the same, eternity in paradise

I am glad you mentioned the following…

The logical next piece of the conversation would be to study the effect of a sinner reaching for the hand of God yet not perfected, however, who’s physical heart has stopped.
God might place that person somewhere to be cleaned. Purgatory. A place to Purge imperfection.

well ffg, if you ask me in what I believe, I am sorry to say there is no hope for a soul who dies in imperfection.
I believe in the course of life, even though we may not commit a grave sin (10 commandments) there are many sins we commit we know in our heart God is not pleased with

Gal 5 gives us a brief list.
what is more important is the last verse

sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling,
jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness,
wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Gal 5:19-21

Wow, that is a tall order for any mortal, but then again we are talking about a perfect God
who we all desire to reign with at some point in the future.

You believe there is a purging process for such sin in purgatory, I hope you are right.
I hate to think of anyone entering eternity imperfect and there is no purgatory.

That is why I am in constant prayer to God to keep me strong to resist those temptations,

And in those times I find myself jumping or falling in the water, as my discussion with James,
I confess and repent and get back on the boat till I get to shore.

oops I fell again, Currently in a heavy storm, Waves are rough, God save me, I am sorry.
back on board…thank you Jesus,

Dang another huge wave…back in the water
and so life goes till we get to shore

God bless

 

[onHisteam]

Gary, in regards to Mary, we can play the chess game. At this point, this is an area I propose we need to agree that we are going to disagree, which is ok by me

Who Mary is or is not does not change
who Jesus Christ is

and isn’t He the most Important person in our lives?

Oh, so you don’t pray for family and friends and loved ones when they pass-on?

I do not. Actually … I believe they are the ones praying for me to endure the race I am in.
Why should I pray for someone who already is in glory?
Well I hope they are,
If any of my ancestors are not in heaven, they entered eternity with grave sin and there is no prayer I can say which will cause God to lift them out of hell, right?

You might say they may be in purgatory, you believe purgatory exists, I do not
even if purgatory exists, those who are there will eventually go to heaven right?

by the way here is Scripture to back my beliefs…

Hebrews 12
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

1. Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,

I wonder who all these witnesses are?
I believe they are our ancestors.
Someday we will be part of that great cloud cheering on our sons and daughters and grandkids etc…

 

[onHisteam]

She didn’t have original sin, and the stain of original sin is what gives us our weakness and concupiscence. She didn’t have that, so she was always in perfect friendship with the LORD. .

Jitterbug, I respect what you believe about Mary, I happen to believe she had original sin just like you and I, She herself was born of parents with original sin. How could she not have inherited sin just like the rest of us?

Jitterbug, as I posted to Gary, in regards to Mary, we can play the chess game. At this point, this is an area I propose we need to agree that we are going to disagree, which is ok by me

Who Mary is or is not does not change
who Jesus Christ is

God bless you

 

[onHisteam]

The first thing you list above touches on salvation. St Paul said that those who eat and drink without proper discernment of the body and the blood eat and drink judgement on themselves.
Jesus said “unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you”.
At the last supper He said this IS my body and this IS my blood…

So - as you say there are variations that we can perhaps overlook…but then there are others that are of very real concern…
Given that we desire life and to avoid an unfavorable judgement, it seems the question of the real presence is something that we need to get right since if one gets it wrong…they have no life and they eat and drink judgement on themselves.

Just sayin…

Peace
James

I am glad you mentioned …
“unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you”.

You believe in the miraculous change from bread to body at every mass I do not…
If my refusal to believe in the real presence and refuse to convert to Catholicism will cause God to deny me access to Heaven, well then, me and every other Christian outside the Catholic church is doomed.

thought, the thief on the cross, was not catholic, did not receive communion, He just expressed repentance and his Faith in Jesus Christ,

Jesus said…Today you will be with me in Paradise

God bless

 

[JRKH]

I am glad you mentioned …
“unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you”.

You believe in the miraculous change from bread to body at every mass I do not…
If my refusal to believe in the real presence and refuse to convert to Catholicism will cause God to deny me access to Heaven, well then, me and every other Christian outside the Catholic church is doomed.

Actually - one does not have to be Catholic in order to believe in the real presence - Eastern Orthodox do…Anglicans do…Lutherans do and there my be others also. There may be differences in how we view the matter, but the belief in the real presence is there.
So - Perhaps not EVERYONE outside of the Catholic Church is doomed…

And consider this. The two oldest Christian Churches (the RC and the EO) BOTH firmly believe in the real presence…body, blood, soul and divinity…and have so since the beginning…1500 plus years before the protestant reformation.

thought, the thief on the cross, was not catholic, did not receive communion, He just expressed repentance and his Faith in Jesus Christ,

Jesus said…Today you will be with me in Paradise

Couple of points on this matter…
The thief on the cross died under the old covenant not under the new. The new sacrifice and the partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ is a part of the new covenant.
The switch from temple sacrifice to the sacrifice of Christ was going on at that very moment.

The man was hanging right next to the Body and the Blood and recognized it.
Christ’s reply to him indicates that the man’s conversion was sincere and so - - if the man had lived, one can be certain that he would have devoted himself to the Apostles’ teaching, received baptism, and partaken of the true body and blood in proper discernment.

Finally - this is a case of taking a non-normative situation and trying to disprove a norm. It’s not unlike the commonly proposed case of the mortal sinner who dies before confessing to a priest. The non-norm exception does not negate the requirements of the norm.

Peace
James

 

[GaryTaylor]

I wonder who all these witnesses are?
I believe they are our ancestors.
Someday we will be part of that great cloud cheering on our sons and daughters and grandkids etc…

But, they will be praying to God for you? Just like St Mary prayed to God for us. She is still there praying? St Joseph?

 

[onHisteam]

Actually - one does not have to be Catholic in order to believe in the real presence - Eastern Orthodox do…Anglicans do…Lutherans do and there my be others also. There may be differences in how we view the matter, but the belief in the real presence is there.
So - Perhaps not EVERYONE outside of the Catholic Church is doomed…

Ok I will rephrase …

You believe in the miraculous change from bread to body at every mass I do not…
If my refusal to believe in the real presence and refuse to convert to Catholicism will cause God to deny me access to Heaven, well then, me and every other Christian outside the Catholic church who also do not believe in the real presence is doomed.

When you are in heaven, send down some marshmallows.

I love toasted marshmallows

 

[onHisteam]

But, they will be praying to God for you? Just like St Mary prayed to God for us. She is still there praying? St Joseph?

They are praying to God for me on earth yes, I am not praying for Mary, Joseph or anyone else who is in heaven

 

[GaryTaylor]

They are praying to God for me on earth yes, I am not praying for Mary, Joseph or anyone else who is in heaven

So they are all praying to God? Your praying to God, they are right there with God praying to God, why wouldn’t you ask them to pray to God for you? Mary is right there praying still like from the start? For us?

 

[JRKH]

Ok I will rephrase …

You believe in the miraculous change from bread to body at every mass I do not…
If my refusal to believe in the real presence and refuse to convert to Catholicism will cause God to deny me access to Heaven, well then, me and every other Christian outside the Catholic church who also do not believe in the real presence is doomed.

I will refrain from saying that God will deny access to heaven to all who do not properly discern the body and blood…
In the teaching of the Church there are allowances made for something called “invincible ignorance”…
In the Gospel of John Chapter 9 Jesus says…
“*39"For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.” 40Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?” 41Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, "We see.’ Therefore your sin remains." *
In the one who is truly blind…(invincible ignorance) there is no sin on a given matter…but for those who claim to see…if they are wrong…the sin remains.

For myself, I will go with what the Holy Spirit has told us in Scripture - along with 2000 years of Church doctrine (both east and west) on the matter.

Peace
James

 

[Tantum_ergo]

They are praying to God for me on earth yes, I am not praying for Mary, Joseph or anyone else who is in heaven

Sounds like somebody has a fundamental (no pun intended) misunderstanding of what ‘prayer’ is.

 

[jmcrae]

I am glad you mentioned …
“unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you”.

You believe in the miraculous change from bread to body at every mass I do not…
If my refusal to believe in the real presence and refuse to convert to Catholicism will cause God to deny me access to Heaven, well then, me and every other Christian outside the Catholic church is doomed.

Is it impossible that everyone who denies what Christ has clearly taught could be doomed?

Perhaps there are only three people in Heaven - Moses, Elijah, and Mary. Does this negate Christ’s victory in getting there to be human beings in Heaven?

We already know that not every human being is going to go to Heaven. Some (indeed, many) will go to Hell.

Perhaps we need to examine ourselves and see whether we are living according to the Church that Christ gave us, rather than our own conceits.

 

[onHisteam]

So they are all praying to God? Your praying to God, they are right there with God praying to God, why wouldn’t you ask them to pray to God for you? Mary is right there praying still like from the start? For us?

Yes they are praying for us … I agree

Gary, what I do not agree with is where this dialogue originated when you asked me…

Oh, so you don’t pray for family and friends and loved ones when they pass-on?

I do not pray for my grandparents, or father or in laws who have passed on…
I am sure they are praying for me up there in heaven, (if they are there, God only knows), with all the other saints.

The reason I do not is
if they are in hell, no prayer of mine will cause God to release them out of hell
if they are in heaven, they do not need prayers, they are in glory
I do not believe in a place of purgatory so praying for souls there is a mute point

 

[onHisteam]

Perhaps we need to examine ourselves and see whether we are living according to the Church that Christ gave us, rather than our own conceits.

Excellent idea?

Everyone should be asking themself … are they are good person?, according to how God sees them.

Here is a “mirror” of truth that will help

Most will ignore this…

it might reveal something which is shameful to admit

Who is strong enough to look into the “mirror”?

areyouagoodperson.org/

 

[onHisteam]

Sounds like somebody has a fundamental (no pun intended) misunderstanding of what ‘prayer’ is.

To me, Prayer is direct communication with my heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.

Talking with Him expressing the needs of the world, loved ones and friends in my life, wisdom for our president, etc etc etc…

And also for forgiveness of my sins wghich I repented and confessed …I do need forgiveness

What does prayer mean to you?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Yes they are praying for us … I agree
I am sure they are praying for me up there in heaven, (if they are there, God only knows), with all the other saints

I’m sorry, is this a difficult conversation? Prayer is intimate I realize and acknowledge, but I do think its something we don’t seem to talk about much with our brothers and sisters in the universal Church.

OK so you don’t know who is there (Heaven), from your family. How about Mary, certainly She is there (Heaven)? And Joseph?

And so She (Mary) is praying to God? Your praying to God, She (Mary} is right there with God praying to God, why wouldn’t you ask Mary to pray to God for you? Mary is right there praying still like from the start? For all mankind, why would anyone suppose this changed?

The exercise is two-fold, to demonstrate how prayer actually works historically and in reality with the Church so you can see. Two its to understand why you don’t see this?

So these good Pentecostal Christians in your family who passed, in truth you don’t know where they are. But you admit some were very good Christians, and I don’t know them, but I get the distinct feeling your correct. So those who were very good Christians, why are you not using your theory about being saved, with them. Which you guys proclaim with vigor, why not the same vigor here? May I suggest that it may well be your not as sure about this as you claim?

And as you say, you pray for loved ones and friends. You intercede for them? Yes? What makes you conclude Mary isn’t do this “today” as She did from day one?

Why did I bring this up? Twofold again, your understanding of heaven and hell and your understanding of the Blessed Virgin Mother which is mentioned several times which of course in my Catholic mind includes a purification process of the soul, just as we continue on earth through this purification process, just as the Saints did. Would you say Paul the Apostle was aware of this process on earth?

You see if we can move past the superficial conversation of book knowledge, and get down to those heart felt uttered prayers, then we being to grasp this intercession on a deeper level. Intercession is a interconnect reality of Christs Kingdom. We are all in this together. Hey, are you guys praying for us over there? We are praying for you!

So do you guys have a list of approved prayers and is this viewable? Which ones do you use? What is your favorite? Do you pray the Liturgy of the Hours, has this been lost in your congregation?

divineoffice.org/

 

[JRKH]

Yes they are praying for us … I agree

Gary, what I do not agree with is where this dialogue originated when you asked me…

I do not pray for my grandparents, or father or in laws who have passed on…
I am sure they are praying for me up there in heaven, (if they are there, God only knows), with all the other saints.

**The reason I do not is
if they are in hell, no prayer of mine will cause God to release them out of hell
if they are in heaven, they do not need prayers, they are in glory
I do not believe in a place of purgatory so praying for souls there is a mute point **

And yet - The Bible speaks approvingly of such prayer in 2 Maccabees 12:42-45…

Peace
James

 

[Tantum_ergo]

To me, Prayer is direct communication with my heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.

Talking with Him expressing the needs of the world, loved ones and friends in my life, wisdom for our president, etc etc etc…

And also for forgiveness of my sins wghich I repented and confessed …I do need forgiveness

What does prayer mean to you?

You DO indeed have a misunderstanding.

While what you stated above is indeed prayer, prayer is NOT limited solely to 'direct communication with the Father and Jesus (I mean, gee, you left out the Holy Spirit, for one).

Prayer means simply communication. It is not, and never was, limited to ‘only God’. Just look at any law court in Great Britain, or the U.S., where the lawyers "pray the court’ to listen to testimony, etc. Read Shakespeare and see where his characters will address each other with "Prithee’ which is a form of ‘pray thee’.

So prayer, by definition, can indeed include communication to others in addition to God.

I can for example pray to you (ask you) to consider reading up on the definition of prayer. This is a real ‘prayer’ in that it is a communication. Of course my ultimate object in praying you to learn about what prayer is (and not a modern narrow definition which totally excludes all other aspects of prayer) is that you will then join in full ‘prayer’ which is always ultimately directed at God through others.

Christians have always ‘prayed’ my way. So did Moses, and Elijah, and Jesus. Why do you want to ignore them in favor of a man-made, circumscribed, incomplete definition of prayer which does NOT give to God ‘all’ that prayer encompasses?

 

[ffg]

My responses to each will be above ~~~ and below — - Hi onHisteam, for a little hopeful clarity, first we have to consider expanding the way we think, then it helps us understand in clarity. We need to avoid defining for the other what they are saying, as that just muddies the waters. I try and stay pretty straight forward. I see many times when my words are twisted for one’s understanding under their umbrella of thinking. Not a big deal, just something that happens often, especially online.

I’m going to flip things around a little and see if we can cut through some common usage terminology that has us stuck in certain thought processes.

Let’s give clarity a shot -

Quote:
Originally Posted by ffg
Until our physical hearts stop ticking, there is not just time for preparation, but we are never done preparing until we can’t any longer.

Then By onHisteam post #60:
absolutely correct, I am constantly praying to God to keep me strong in resisting the enemies temptations. His arms must be tired from all the times He lifted me up out of the water,
even though I do not like the deep waters, chances are I will be in the water in short time once more,​

By definition, to be saved or saving someone does not incorporate effort by the person being saved, as they are in the state necessary of needing to be saved in the first place.

Now let’s not confuse a human saving a life from drowning, and God saving (welcoming) a good and faithful servant.

Considering God is perfect, he will only need to use his power to ‘Save’ a soul ONCE. Perfection wouldn’t need to repeat a feat of perfection for the same subject (soul) and purpose.

Preparation then would be an effort to be ready to be chosen aka, be chosen for His team. We might all be on the boat, the chosen may still be chosen from those on the boat, some may not have left the house prepared for the trip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ffg  
The wonderful elderly lady is a great example for all of us that we are nowhere near 'the boat'. 
I'm nowhere near a boat, 

Then By onHisteam post #61:
ffg, to say that you are no where near the boat means you are always in the water, I very much doubt that is true, 
You go to confession right?
When you say your penance you are forgiven right?
If you are forgiven you are in a state of grace at that moment in time, right?
well then, right then after confession you are in the boat...forgiven, right?...
-------------------------------------------------
What is not understood here, is the effect of sin. State of Grace is often confused with perfection, or it seems it is in this case. One may be saddled with Venial sins and be in the State of Grace.

Remember that State is simply the state where the lines of communication (and of course ability to receive grace) have not been cut by us through mortal sin.

Sin can be forgiven by God, just as you can forgive someone who punches you in the face and causes you to go blind.

What is left is the effect of the punch that you are saddled with for your life. 

Similarly, when we sin we cause damage to our soul (give it a solid punch) that can only be repaired with the hand of God. Where is God's soul chop shop? Purgatory. If the term is too much, consider that a purification process needed to get from the boat to Heaven, would be equivalent to what we consider Purgatory. To take a guess at any detail about that process would not provide accuracy as nobody would know.

It's important to remember we don't ever drop the "sinner" title no matter how many times we get back on the boat.

Being on the boat, does not make us perfect and ready for heaven. God does this in his soul chop shop on the way to heaven.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ffg
God save me, please.

Prayer has been answered, hasn’t it?
Here is why I believe it,
I assume you said yes to my questions…
if you were to die right then right after you went to confession, you would spend eternity in heaven
You might, as you believe, be purged in purgatory and then onto Glory, right?

---

I kind of brought the response to the second half up in the last response.

No the prayer hasn’t been answered, I’m still a sinner. To be Saved would be to change my title from Sinner to Saint. That will hopefully happen, but won’t until I’m pushing up daisies here AND after the damage I’ve done to my soul is repaired.