you believe the pope will answer

[ffg]

It was a perpetuation of a misconception. Protestants do not believe the words of “the sinner’s prayer” saves you. It is a turning away from sin, not salvation.

(I wasn’t responding to the pope – just a particular aggravating reduction contained in a sentiment I read far too often among Catholics.)

I understand the frustration, as you have already mentioned, there are many, many things Catholics and non-Catholics don’t understand about the Catholic Church and it’s teachings.

Due in large part by public figures being incorrect about the faith and it’s teachings (See Pelosi or Biden for easy examples).

I guess a good sidenote, to our side conversation is to know ‘outsiders’ and sometimes ‘insiders’ get details wrong. It will save us a great deal of stress to understand this and focus on the context of the point, as we’ll often see misconceptions.

 

[Boulder257]

I understand the frustration, as you have already mentioned, there are many, many things Catholics and non-Catholics don’t understand about the Catholic Church and it’s teachings.

Due in large part by public figures being incorrect about the faith and it’s teachings (See Pelosi or Biden for easy examples).

I guess a good sidenote, to our side conversation is to know ‘outsiders’ and sometimes ‘insiders’ get details wrong. It will save us a great deal of stress to understand this and focus on the context of the point, as we’ll often see misconceptions.

Boy, isn’t this true! I stayed away from the Catholic faith because of the examples set by many Catholics…what a horrible shame that I allowed them to determine my relationship with God. Thank the Lord he didn’t give up on me and kept after me!

 

[JRKH]

That would be nice wouldn’t it?
I am so glad you did not shut up Paul because you are addressing the heart of the issue as to why their is no unity among the Christian churches.

Thanks…Glad you agree because I really think that this is a question that all Christian Churches should take seriously.

Since I did not get and answer to my questions below…

Sorry - sometimes it takes a while to get back to things…

Posted by StevenFrancis

and asking for forgiveness, penance and a clean heart from God

thereby returning to a state of grace, yes??

Yes - this is correct. It is, in a sense, a reconversion - a renewal and re-commitment.

Posted by StevenFrancis

After (death), there is no longer time. the decisions we have made while within time will have become eternal.
So it is too late for amendment. It is important to die in a state of grace, and friendship with God through Jesus Christ.

Right on, Amen
And if we do not die in the state of grace? I believe we will be damned, yes?

Correct.

Posted by Ad Orientem

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life

a gift of eternal life? a gift to me is something you reject or accept
I accept the fact that Jesus died for my sins and when I fall short as Steven said, I trust God He will forgive me when I ask for forgiveness, restablishing my soul to a state of grace at that moment in time. However, at some point in the future I might fall from grace and then would need to confess again
Am I right?

Well it’s called a gift because we cannot “earn” it.
But yes what you are saying here agrees with Church teaching.

I am beginning to wonder if at all you can give me a definitive answer.
Let me ask a question in another way.

As far as you are concerned, if you are on your death bed, taking your last breaths, and a priest just ministered your last rights, is it a true statement to say there is no way to know for sure that after you die and wake up on the other side of eternity, you will come face to face with Almighty God forever??

You will die always hoping and not an assurance of salvation…?? is that true?

The answer to this will depend somewhat on how a person understands the term “Know for sure”. If one “knows for sure” there is no room for hope - or for faith for that matter.
But that is what the OSAS position seems to point to “knowledge”…
That said - some people seem to go too far the other way in saying we cannot know, or that we have no assurance. This also is false.
We CAN have assurance of our salvation on our deathbed providing that we have, as Paul says, run the good race.

So there needs to be a balance between having an assurance of salvation IF we follow Christ as we should and at the same time not taking salvation for granted (which is called the sin of presumption).

Does this help…Others might be able to explain it better…

Peace
James

 

[ffg]

Boy, isn’t this true! I stayed away from the Catholic faith because of the examples set by many Catholics…what a horrible shame that I allowed them to determine my relationship with God. Thank the Lord he didn’t give up on me and kept after me!

I stayed away from confession for years because a priest told me in confession that a sin that I know is a sin, was not a sin if it was habitual.

(To tie it into the thread, I think confessing, absolution, penance, retribution if needed, are very important to salvation)

The truth is - a sin is a sin, is a sin.

There might be some variance on the damage one does to themselves if it’s constantly repeated, but I would lean toward getting worse, not doing less (or no damage) if participating knowingly.

The long story to that confession was that I watched that confessional like a hawk after leaving feeling awkward and never did a priest leave (I wanted to know what the guy looked like that gave me that bad advice).

After discussing the situation many times with many different priests over the last 20 years, never has one affirmed the advice given that day.

 

[Boulder257]

I stayed away from confession for years because a priest told me in confession that a sin that I know is a sin, was not a sin if it was habitual.

(To tie it into the thread, I think confessing, absolution, penance, retribution if needed, are very important to salvation)

The truth is - a sin is a sin, is a sin.

There might be some variance on the damage one does to themselves if it’s constantly repeated, but I would lean toward getting worse, not doing less (or no damage) if participating knowingly.

The long story to that confession was that I watched that confessional like a hawk after leaving feeling awkward and never did a priest leave (I wanted to know what the guy looked like that gave me that bad advice).

After discussing the situation many times with many different priests over the last 20 years, never has one affirmed the advice given that day.

Good for you for following your well-informed conscience!

 

[SteveVH]

I stayed away from confession for years because a priest told me in confession that a sin that I know is a sin, was not a sin if it was habitual.

(To tie it into the thread, I think confessing, absolution, penance, retribution if needed, are very important to salvation)

The truth is - a sin is a sin, is a sin.

There might be some variance on the damage one does to themselves if it’s constantly repeated, but I would lean toward getting worse, not doing less (or no damage) if participating knowingly.

The long story to that confession was that I watched that confessional like a hawk after leaving feeling awkward and never did a priest leave (I wanted to know what the guy looked like that gave me that bad advice).

After discussing the situation many times with many different priests over the last 20 years, never has one affirmed the advice given that day.

I had a similar experience. Priests need to be very careful in giving advice. I must add that this kind of advice is the exception and other than that experience I have always been thankful and even surprised at the wisdom and insight I receive from priests. Regardless, the beauty of the sacraments lies in the fact that regardless of the priest’s own holiness or his personal views, the sacrament is efficacious. You confessed the sin that you knew was a sin, and you received absolution. This is the work of God’s mercy through the Holy Spirit and he alone knows your heart.

 

[bzkoss236]

Personally, from my logical understanding, no one is saved until they are in heaven. One may attain a state of sanctifying grace, but they aren’t yet saved unless they endure until the end.

The scenario I use as an example:

You are stranded in the middle of the ocean with no way of making it to land. A rescue ship comes along, and you might think to yourself “I am saved!”, but in reality, you are not. You might feel safe on the ship, but you are not yet saved. You are not saved until your feet reach the ground. A lot of things can happen out at sea from the point you are picked up to the point you reach land. A great storm may knock you back off the ship. So, you can’t say you are saved until you reach land. Similarly, I say you can’t say you are saved until you reach heaven.

My thoughts on the symbols in such an analogy:
The ship = The Church = The means of salvation
The rescuer & captain = Christ = The one who saves us and leads
First mate = the Pope = The one who makes sure people follow orders from Christ (the captain)
Land = Heaven = The ends of salvation

 

[onHisteam]

Personally, from my logical understanding, no one is saved until they are in heaven. One may attain a state of sanctifying grace, but they aren’t yet saved unless they endure until the end.

The scenario I use as an example:

You are stranded in the middle of the ocean with no way of making it to land. A rescue ship comes along, and you might think to yourself “I am saved!”, but in reality, you are not. You might feel safe on the ship, but you are not yet saved. You are not saved until your feet reach the ground. A lot of things can happen out at sea from the point you are picked up to the point you reach land. A great storm may knock you back off the ship. So, you can’t say you are saved until you reach land. Similarly, I say you can’t say you are saved until you reach heaven.

My thoughts on the symbols in such an analogy:
The ship = The Church = The means of salvation
The rescuer & captain = Christ = The one who saves us and leads
First mate = the Pope = The one who makes sure people follow orders from Christ (the captain)
Land = Heaven = The ends of salvation

Good illustration. I see where confusion can come in

using your analogy bzkoss, once the ship picks me up, I am saved for the moment
Yes things can change before I reach land (heaven) but for the moment I am saved.

If the boatjerks and I fall back in (sin), I would need to repent, and confess once again to be saved again (temporarily), and be once more on the boat ( in a state of grace).

If things stay the way they are when I reach land, salvation, heaven is 1 step away…my physical death …yes???

 

[bzkoss236]

Good illustration. I see where confusion can come in

using your analogy bzkoss, once the ship picks me up, I am saved for the moment
Yes things can change before I reach land (heaven) but for the moment I am saved.

If the boatjerks and I fall back in (sin), I would need to repent, and confess once again to be saved again (temporarily), and be once more on the boat ( in a state of grace).

If things stay the way they are when I reach land, salvation, heaven is 1 step away…my physical death …yes???

Yes, that sounds about right. But I would say that physical death happens when the boat reaches the shore. This is so that I might add that there could also be the scenario where you are on the ship (in a state of grace), but have fallen ill and cannot step onto land just yet (still have some uncleanliness, whether it is attachment to sin, doubt, or whatever else). You would have to get better before you could get yourself up and step off the ship (Purgatory; a purgation to make you clean before entering heaven).

 

[ffg]

The last few posts on here remind me of the parable of the 10 virgins.

I think it’s important to always remember that though we might follow what we’re taught to do exactly. Truth is, God makes the decision on who enters, not us in word or deeds.

However, if getting into Heaven is our goal, be prepared is the message in the parable.

Which ironically, in our current life, our preparedness would be measured in our words and deeds, since that is our nature.

Which should extend our thought process to not just having a goal to get to Heaven, but in preparation to do so, in being the best at who we are as creations on earth.

Which means there is meaning to our lives on Earth here and to not look past this life.

 

[rinnie]

I stayed away from confession for years because a priest told me in confession that a sin that I know is a sin, was not a sin if it was habitual.

(To tie it into the thread, I think confessing, absolution, penance, retribution if needed, are very important to salvation)

The truth is - a sin is a sin, is a sin.

There might be some variance on the damage one does to themselves if it’s constantly repeated, but I would lean toward getting worse, not doing less (or no damage) if participating knowingly.

The long story to that confession was that I watched that confessional like a hawk after leaving feeling awkward and never did a priest leave (I wanted to know what the guy looked like that gave me that bad advice).

After discussing the situation many times with many different priests over the last 20 years, never has one affirmed the advice given that day.

Sometimes I think that people forget that a priest is human like us and can also make mistakes.

Like for instance I cut hair if I give a bad cut is someone going to quit getting their hair cut. Of course not they will go somewhere else.

So if a Priest gives bad advice go to another Priest for goodness sakes.

 

[ffg]

Sometimes I think that people forget that a priest is human like us and can also make mistakes.

Like for instance I cut hair if I give a bad cut is someone going to quit getting their hair cut. Of course not they will go somewhere else.

So if a Priest gives bad advice go to another Priest for goodness sakes.

Only if was so easy.

Your message assumes everyone knows when advice is bad, that is a steep assumption.

I also disagree with the assumption that bad advice falls under ‘Oh, it’s just a mistake’.

It would be an extreme assumption to think a priest had a brain fart in giving advice contrary to Church teaching. He was quite purposeful. (I do pray for those who may have ran into him and received similar information and ran with it.)

These men are trained for years before doing what they do. Much of that training is obviously around counseling in light of Church teaching.

I guess it’s important to point out that a mistake is not an excuse that clears fault.

Your lighthearted response shows you have not had a similar experience, great. I hope you don’t.

No it is not like a bad haircut, plus you missed the point that someone would want their money back as well.

 

[JRKH]

The thing to remember with regard to bad advice in the confessional is that - if there is error - the culpability lies with the one giving the advice and not with the one who, in good faith and conscience, follows said advice.

Another thing to keep in mind is that advice given in the confessional can be VERY person and situation specific. I’m sure that most confessors will handle a person suffering from scruples very differently from a run of the mill penitent (just as an example.

Like the entirety of one’s confession - such advice should remain between the penitent and the confessor.

I think that sometimes this is where people get into trouble. They go to father with a deep and long running issue. Father listens and provides some guidance. Perhaps that guidance even includes a sort of dispensation while the issue is worked through…
The Penitent shares this with someone and the next thing you know people are saying that “Father so-and-so says (fill in the blank) is OK”…When Father said no such thing.

As a simple example from my own life, I spoke with my confessor about not being able to make it to Sunday mass due to my wife’s illness. His response was simply - “If you are needed at home that is where you need to be”.
So - did Father say it was all right to miss Sunday mass?
Well - yes he did…and if shared this around in the wrong way…It could be misconstrued as my saying that father said we don’t have to attend mass on Sundays…

Of course the above is a simple and obvious example. But Priests have to deal with many much more delicate and complicated situations and circumstances that we bring to them on a regular basis. It would not surprise me at all that priests offer advice and even allowances in certain circumstances to those who are struggling.
But these are one off situations - not to be broadcast as father teaching something that is against Church teaching.

Now - having said all of that - - I’m sure there ARE priests who have erred and even abused their teaching office. I’m only saying that not all cases and situations are the same…

Peace
James

 

[ffg]

Ok, so now we are really muddying the waters, but the conversation is fun.

Let’s remember we are talking about sin.

Your real life example didn’t include sin.

Getting dispensation from attending Mass is not sinning against not going to Mass.

Getting dispensation is not the same as being told a sin is not a sin.

I don’t agree that someone committing a sin at any point should think doing so is ok.

I have a hard time believing when it’s our turn to stand in judgement, pointing a finger and saying “he said I could sin” is going to cut it.

 

[SteveVH]

The thing to remember with regard to bad advice in the confessional is that - if there is error - the culpability lies with the one giving the advice and not with the one who, in good faith and conscience, follows said advice.

Another thing to keep in mind is that advice given in the confessional can be VERY person and situation specific. I’m sure that most confessors will handle a person suffering from scruples very differently from a run of the mill penitent (just as an example.

Like the entirety of one’s confession - such advice should remain between the penitent and the confessor.

I think that sometimes this is where people get into trouble. They go to father with a deep and long running issue. Father listens and provides some guidance. Perhaps that guidance even includes a sort of dispensation while the issue is worked through…
The Penitent shares this with someone and the next thing you know people are saying that “Father so-and-so says (fill in the blank) is OK”…When Father said no such thing.

As a simple example from my own life, I spoke with my confessor about not being able to make it to Sunday mass due to my wife’s illness. His response was simply - “If you are needed at home that is where you need to be”.
So - did Father say it was all right to miss Sunday mass?
Well - yes he did…and if shared this around in the wrong way…It could be misconstrued as my saying that father said we don’t have to attend mass on Sundays…

Of course the above is a simple and obvious example. But Priests have to deal with many much more delicate and complicated situations and circumstances that we bring to them on a regular basis. It would not surprise me at all that priests offer advice and even allowances in certain circumstances to those who are struggling.
But these are one off situations - not to be broadcast as father teaching something that is against Church teaching.

Now - having said all of that - - I’m sure there ARE priests who have erred and even abused their teaching office. I’m only saying that not all cases and situations are the same…

Peace
James

Great point.

 

[JRKH]

Ok, so now we are really muddying the waters, but the conversation is fun.

Glad you are enjoying it…

Let’s remember we are talking about sin.

We are (or at least I am) also talking about struggle, forgiveness, mercy and growth.

Your real life example didn’t include sin.

Missing mass on Sunday is a sin - and a grave sin…

Getting dispensation from attending Mass is not sinning against not going to Mass.

Correct…While missing mass under normal circumstances is a sin, having the dispensation removes the sin.

Getting dispensation is not the same as being told a sin is not a sin.

Agreed.

I don’t agree that someone committing a sin at any point should think doing so is ok.

Again - I fully agree. However - depending on the particulars of a given case - I could easily see a confessor minimizing a lesser sin while someone works to overcome a greater sin.
I will not get into any specific examples because as I said earlier…Each case is unique.

I have a hard time believing when it’s our turn to stand in judgement, pointing a finger and saying “he said I could sin” is going to cut it.

God sees into the heart. If God recognizes that the person really DID know it was a sin then yes - pointing a finger will not cut it…
On the other hand, if the person really did NOT know it was a sin and acted in honesty and good faith…our merciful God will surely recognize this good faith and forgive. However - the one giving the bad advice will have a heavy reckoning…I seem to recall something about a millstone…

Peace
James

 

[ffg]

There isn’t a whole lot we disagree on, which probably makes the audience a little turned off. (As well as shows the consistency of the Catholic Church)

Some fundamentals to help us and the audience this round - let me know if there is any disagreement.

The salvation tie in - Sin is real, dangerous, and can cause the opposite of salvation.

Venial sins are cleansed with the Sacrament of the Eucharist, though it is encouraged to confess them as the council given may be of help to avoid in the future.

“The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains, “As bodily nourishment restores lost strength, so the Eucharist strengthens our charity, which tends to be weakened in daily life; and this living charity wipes away venial sins” (CCC 1394).”

source: catholic.com/quickquestions/must-we-confess-before-receiving-communion-because-god-cannot-be-in-the-presence-of-s

Mortal sins take three facts - Grave matter, knowledge of grave matter, full consent to do / not do the act / thought / omission.

Included in Mortal sins, is missing mass (source: 10 commandments), but you must have the three facts above included to create the sin.

Thus (Looking at your answer’s numerically, skipping 1,2,4,5)…

Though your 3rd response is factual, it is not a response to my point, in your life situation you did not consent or do the grave sin of missing Mass. Rather you were pro-active in doing quite the opposite for the situation before Mass.

My example where I got poor advice consisted of having actually done a grave sin and being told in confession it was ok as long as I kept doing it consistently (habitual).

Sidenote: Had I thought of dispensation last year, I would have done so when I had to travel to China. I didn’t go to mass due to the risk. The true Church in China is an underground affair. A foreigner looking for the underground Church would be quite a risk to himself and the members.

#6 - I agree in that it should be a known that every situation is unique and examples are just that examples. There are as many of them as there is sand on the seashore.

That said, I don’t know if I agree that a priest should set something aside to assist in another sin because sin is very intertwined. What seems like the ‘lighter’ sin might be the cause of, or a compliment to the larger sin. It all needs work. to go against what we said about examples - Though it’s understandable murder is not a lie and the murder should be dealt with more vigorously than the lie, the lie might be hiding the murder.

#7, I agree with the last, be damned a knowledgeable fellow who misleads.

It’s above my pay grade to guess as to how God will judge. I go back to the parable of the 10 virgin’s. I see 10 people with good hearts and 5 are left out. Be sure to bring your oil for your lamp.

 

[JRKH]

ffg,
I see nothing in your post above that I disagree with.

For the record…my earlier comment was not intended to address your specific situation or what went on between yourself and your confessor. My comments were intended to simply be general in nature…

Peace
James

 

[onHisteam]

That is why Christ gave a Priest the power of the Holy Spirit to forgive mortal sin and cleanse is in his name.

After reading this statement rinnie, I wondered about how much power catholics believe the priest have…

so I started another thread and addressed an area in question
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11022475#post11022475

I am interested in your answer…thank you
God bless

 

[onHisteam]

I really appreciate all your replies. I read each and every one.
I believe I am starting to see the heart of what Catholics believe.

thank you bzkoss for responding to my comments…it helped

After I basically said…
once the ship picks me up,
I am saved for the moment
Yes things can change before I reach land (heaven) but for the moment I am saved.

If the boat jerks and I fall back in (sin),
I am no longer saved so I would need to repent, and confess once again to be temporarily saved once more.
I am back in the boat in a state of grace, at least for that moment.

if I fall back into sin, repeat above

If things stay the way they are when I reach land, being in a state of grace,
then salvation/heaven is 1 step away
that step is my physical death …yes???

to which you responded…

I would say that physical death happens when the boat reaches the shore.

I agree

scenario where you are on the ship (in a state of grace),

ok

but have fallen ill and cannot step onto land just yet

ah, that one last obstacle. nothing grave … thank God … just a few heartbeats from paradise in heaven

(still have some uncleanliness, whether it is attachment to sin, doubt, or
whatever else). You would have to get better before you could get yourself
up and step off the ship (Purgatory; a purgation to make you clean before entering heaven

thank you bzkoss
using your scenario, once the purgation process is over, I do not see any way God would deny me access to heaven,

Let me ask you,
after the purgation process is over, **do you believe God would deny me access to heaven? **
btw, there is no one on earth I know of who stays in a state of grace their entire life with no need to confess,
there was one man 2000 years ago who did, His name … Jesus Christ

After all is said and done

from the above scenario

if in the coarse of the day, we willingly committ a grave sin we fall back in the water and no
longer in a state of grace.

if we then sink and drown before confessing we did not make it to shore(heaven)

this is why I started another thread with this thought in mind…
what if we fall and there is no church around or priest to confess to?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthrea…5#post11022475

conclusion,
the choices we make every day, hour, minute, or even sec has a direct impact on the state our souls are in.
agree?