"You cant earn Heaven"

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What does that mean?

I know no one is entitled to Heaven, but what more is there than Faith & Works? Being obedient to God is all one can do and surely He knows the sincerity of our hearts, so what more is there? Of course with Him knowing our sincerity we leave our fate in His hands.

It seems a little off and troubles me that obedience to God isnt seen as “enough” to be saved. If we do what He asks, why wouldnt that “earn” you Heaven?
 
What does that mean?

I know no one is entitled to Heaven, but what more is there than Faith & Works? Being obedient to God is all one can do and surely He knows the sincerity of our hearts, so what more is there? Of course with Him knowing our sincerity we leave our fate in His hands.

It seems a little off and troubles me that obedience to God isnt seen as “enough” to be saved. If we do what He asks, why wouldnt that “earn” you Heaven?
This is a very interesting and reasonable question.

The reason we can’t possibly merit heaven is because we are finite beings, and Heaven is an infinite good. No matter how much you do good works, it never will add up to infinity.

However, thanks to the grace of God, and the Redemption by Jesus Christ, the debt has been paid and we can make it to Heaven. Our good works are for additional merits, and our love of God further increases that. The thing which will take us away from Heaven now is a lack of sanctifying grace, which occurs due to mortal sin.
 
Maybe because we are only able to live according to his will with his gift of grace. It is still true that faith without works is dead. So I’m not promoting faith alone salvation. Everything that is is a gift from the Lord but we still have to do our part. Not one is without sin except God and Mary. No one. So his sacrifice for us is a gift but we still have to accept it and work according to his will to attain salvation. Still not am expert on this concept.
 
This is a very interesting and reasonable question.

The reason we can’t possibly merit heaven is because we are finite beings, and Heaven is an infinite good. No matter how much you do good works, it never will add up to infinity.

However, thanks to the grace of God, and the Redemption by Jesus Christ, the debt has been paid and we can make it to Heaven. Our good works are for additional merits, and our love of God further increases that. The thing which will take us away from Heaven now is a lack of sanctifying grace, which occurs due to mortal sin.
Thank you and i agree, however, doesnt avoiding mortal sin fall under obedience to God?

So with that stated, it seems off to say that this still doesnt “earn” you Heaven. Dont mistake this with being presumptious, but rather if we do all God asks, why should we have any reason to doubt that this doesnt give a person a pretty good chance at Heaven? God does not lie to us and does not give empty promises.
 
Thank you and i agree, however, doesnt avoiding mortal sin fall under obedience to God?

So with that stated, it seems off to say that this still doesnt “earn” you Heaven. Dont mistake this with being presumptious, but rather if we do all God asks, why should we have any reason to doubt that this doesnt give a person a pretty good chance at Heaven? God does not lie to us and does not give empty promises.
Avoiding mortal sin does fall under obedience to God, but the reason I mentioned it is because it is the one thing in the world which can take sanctifying grace away from us.

We don’t “earn” Heaven. It has been offered to us as a gift. The difference between going to Heaven and Hell is simply **choosing **one or the other, and we choose by our actions.
 
Avoiding mortal sin does fall under obedience to God, but the reason I mentioned it is because it is the one thing in the world which can take sanctifying grace away from us.

We don’t “earn” Heaven. It has been offered to us as a gift. The difference between going to Heaven and Hell is simply **choosing **one or the other, and we choose by our actions.
Agreed, I saw this stated in another thread but someone also replied to me with that when I stated I am fearful because I lack trust. Not lack of trust in God, but in myself. That I am such a weak person that I fear at the hour of death, unkown to me, that I may fall and choose sin out of weakness at that moment, damning myself perpetually.

So it makes sense in the way you said, because our works and faith mean nothing if we ultimately choose Hell.
 
Agreed, I saw this stated in another thread but someone also replied to me with that when I stated I am fearful because I lack trust. Not lack of trust in God, but in myself. That I am such a weak person that I fear at the hour of death, unkown to me, that I may fall and choose sin out of weakness at that moment, damning myself perpetually.

So it makes sense in the way you said, because our works and faith mean nothing if we ultimately choose Hell.
Glad I could help. And yes, I agree, it is a fearful thought that we may lose our faith in a time of weakness. The best antidote is to always have Christ in mind, and to redouble our devotions in times of strength, so that when we are weak we already have a rampart behind which to hide.
 
Permit me to take a slightly different approach…

We don’t “earn heaven” even by obedience to God because belief in God or even obedience to Him says nothing about where our heart is and where our heart is, there lies our treasure.

We speak of grace, and faith and obedience…But what is the greatest of the commandments? Whenever you have a question like this…always go to the root.
All of the Law - All of the prophets - is based on two commands. Love God and Love neighbor as yourself. Mt 22:36-40. Jesus give a “new command” that we:
… one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."…John 13:34-35
St John reveals that he who does not love (regardless of his works) does not know God:
Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God; for God is love. 1John 4:7-8

If we embrace these - if we Love God and Love neighbor then we know God “are born of God”, and our actions, our works, will reflect this. Then our works are not about “merit” or “earning”…They are about Familial love

If we do not embrace this Love then our attempts do do good works will falter and fail…

These things always revolve around love…

Peace
James
 
Permit me to take a slightly different approach…

We don’t “earn heaven” even by obedience to God because belief in God or even obedience to Him says nothing about where our heart is and where our heart is, there lies our treasure.

We speak of grace, and faith and obedience…But what is the greatest of the commandments? Whenever you have a question like this…always go to the root.
All of the Law - All of the prophets - is based on two commands. Love God and Love neighbor as yourself. Mt 22:36-40. Jesus give a “new command” that we:
… one another; even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."…John 13:34-35
St John reveals that he who does not love (regardless of his works) does not know God:
Beloved, let us love one another; for love is of God, and he who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God; for God is love. 1John 4:7-8

If we embrace these - if we Love God and Love neighbor then we know God “are born of God”, and our actions, our works, will reflect this. Then our works are not about “merit” or “earning”…They are about Familial love

If we do not embrace this Love then our attempts do do good works will falter and fail…

These things always revolve around love…

Peace
James
Isnt love for God and our neighbor obedience to God though?

Matthew 7:21 21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

It seems like those who do the will of the Father “earn” heaven?

Now let me assure you I agree if you do these things only out of selfishness so that one may avoid hell, that isnt the best reason, but is that a mortal reason?

Furthermore, how does one truly know why they do the will of God? How does one know if they do it out of love, out of fear (maybe fear rooted in the subconscious), or a combination of both? Isnt fear a good thing since it keeps us humble?

Sorry for all the questions heh.
 
Isnt love for God and our neighbor obedience to God though?
One does not love out of obedience. One does not do things for those they love out of obedience. This is why Jesus speaks about things like “where you treasure is, so is you heart”.
If one only “loves God” out of “obedience” - that is not Love…
Matthew 7:21 21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
It seems like those who do the will of the Father “earn” heaven?
It can seem this way - but remember that Jesus was speaking to people who were still under the Law. Their whole mindset revolved around obedience and the keeping of the Mosaic Law - regardless of what might be in their hearts.
So the above statement, like many others that Jesus made, was actually something quite revolutionary to the ears of his audience. He is telling them that just believing isn’t enough, You have to put this into their hearts as well as their actions.
Note that He does not say, “only those who obey the commandments”…though certainly that is part of it.
Now let me assure you I agree if you do these things only out of selfishness so that one may avoid hell, that isnt the best reason, but is that a mortal reason?
"Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. So says the proverb.
Faith is a journey of growth. Sanctification we call it. If fear is the beginning…then what is the end or goal? That answer is unity with God - who is Love - and so…it’s not about “earning heaven” - it’s about falling in Love
Furthermore, how does one truly know why they do the will of God? How does one know if they do it out of love, out of fear (maybe fear rooted in the subconscious), or a combination of both? Isnt fear a good thing since it keeps us humble?
How do we know if we truly love our parents, our husband, wife or children?
How do we know when we Love?
When we are willing to sacrifice for another, when we wish to be with that person and abhor the thought of ever disappointing them in any thing they ask of us.
Is that not Love? This then is what we seek with God - through our love for our neighbor.
Sorry for all the questions heh.
I don’t mind…are you Canadian - heh? 😉

The bottom line in this is that fear and obedience might be the starting point just as they are when a child is very small. But the parent seeks to love their child as well as discipline them. Then as the child matures they come to understand that love and what began as “fear and obedience” turns to Love and respect.
Same with God - we being with fear and repentance and obedience…we grow in respect and in grace we come to Love…

Peace
James
 
Isnt love for God and our neighbor obedience to God though?

Matthew 7:21 21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

It seems like those who do the will of the Father “earn” heaven?

Now let me assure you I agree if you do these things only out of selfishness so that one may avoid hell, that isnt the best reason, but is that a mortal reason?

Furthermore, how does one truly know why they do the will of God? How does one know if they do it out of love, out of fear (maybe fear rooted in the subconscious), or a combination of both? Isnt fear a good thing since it keeps us humble?

Sorry for all the questions heh.
A young boy (5 yrs old) wants to be a bicycle rider like his father and older brother. The father and brother are also looking forward to that day.
But the young boy does not know how to ride, nor does he have a bicycle.
He asks his father for a bike. His father gives him a bike.
He walks around with it, holding the handle bars, but falls over every time he tries to ride.
The young boy asks his father and brother to help him ride. He has to ride to be a bicycle rider; he cannot just walk at its side and push it.
His father balances it as he sits in the seat, and guides it along with the young boy pedaling, and the older brother riding his bike along side as example and encouragement.
As they pick up speed, the father jogging, the young boy’s steering gets straighter, and the father lets go.
After a few feet, he falls, cries. etc.
With the father’s consolation and encouragement, they try again, and again, and again, for several days.
One day, he didn’t fall. He wobbled and weaved, but went on and on. Then as days went by he could get on and start himself. And the three of them went riding together. That is heaven, riding together on their bicycles.
The boy did not work to be a member of that family of bicycle riders, he did not work to get a bike, he did not hold himself in balance as he pedaled his first attempts. All those were gifts, graces from his father and brother.
But the boy did pedal, he had to pedal to be a rider. He did fall and skin his knees and elbows. He did have to find his own balance and use it. (yet even his body and balancing mechanisms were given to him - he did not create those, simply used them, learned to use them). These things were the necessary works to be a bicycle rider within his bicycle riding family. He did have to do these works to be in that heaven of riding together with his father and brother.

We are doing works in order to learn to be, and in order to BE, like our Father in heaven, to will what He wills, to love as he loves. and to be like our older Brother, our King, Jesus. It is work that has to be a reality in order to be together with them. That is our sanctification: becoming like our Father and Brother.

The prayer “Thy will be done” is a young boy saying, “Let us all be 100% a bicycle riding family”. It is love for the Father that desires to be doing the work of the Father with the Father. “Thy will be done by you and by me, Father, let’s do it together”

The work of learning to ride “merits” the boy the position of riding with the family, in that he is able to do it, and the father and brother say to him, “You have learned to ride; you have earned the right to ride with us.”

John Martin
 
One does not love out of obedience. One does not do things for those they love out of obedience. Thisis why Jesus speaks about things like “where you treasure is, so is you heart”. If one only “loves God” out of “obedience” - that is not Love…
But if God commands us to love our neighbors and we do, by our actions, is that not obeying His commands?

Im not speaking of following the laws with a legal mindset like the Pharisees, who proclaim with their words but do not proclaim the good news with their actions (Faith AND Works).

As to loving God out of obedience…By choosing by our freewill to be obedient to God, this signifies that we are choosing to love him, right?
 
But if God commands us to love our neighbors and we do, by our actions, is that not obeying His commands?

Im not speaking of following the laws with a legal mindset like the Pharisees, who proclaim with their words but do not proclaim the good news with their actions (Faith AND Works).

As to loving God out of obedience…By choosing by our freewill to be obedient to God, this signifies that we are choosing to love him, right?
It all begins with knowing God, and then knowing him, his goodness, his truth, his beauty, there is the desire to participate in him.
This “will” to participate means wanting what I know within myself to be true in objective reality - that I interact with God outside myself and experience his goodness with him experiencing me in mutual love.

From this desire to interact with God, the Father, and his Son, choices of activities are made. This is the love we do to each other in our participation in each other’s being.

This is our work; it is necessary to do love to the one you participate in.

John Martin
 
It all begins with knowing God, and then knowing him, his goodness, his truth, his beauty, there is the desire to participate in him.
This “will” to participate means wanting what I know within myself to be true in objective reality - that I interact with God outside myself and experience his goodness with him experiencing me in mutual love.

From this desire to interact with God, the Father, and his Son, choices of activities are made. This is the love we do to each other in our participation in each other’s being.

This is our work; it is necessary to do love to the one you participate in.

John Martin
So because True Love isnt just a mushy emotion or empty proclamations of verses, but rather shown by our actions and how we treat our neighbors, choosing to engage in these actions is choosing to love?
 
But if God commands us to love our neighbors and we do, by our actions, is that not obeying His commands?
Yes -
Why are obeying the commands?
Im not speaking of following the laws with a legal mindset like the Pharisees, who proclaim with their words but do not proclaim the good news with their actions (Faith AND Works).
I know. But we have to remember that others are reading these conversations too. We have to be careful not to confuse others.
As to loving God out of obedience…By choosing by our freewill to be obedient to God, this signifies that we are choosing to love him, right?
Not necessarily. I choose to obey the laws of the land…That does not mean I love the government…😉
Someone can choose to obey the commands of his employer. That does not mean that he loves his employer.
So - choosing to be obedient does not always equal love.

Where there is an expectation of a recompense…love is not perfected. Where any recompense is seen as either undeserved, or “icing on the cake”…Love is much nearer to perfection.

There are two verses in Scripture that - though not located together…I have always thought perfectly expressed what I am trying to say.
The first from Luke 17:10 says:
10 So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, 'We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty."

So - this should be our attitude…that after all of our obedience, we remain unworthy…that we have “earned” nothing. This takes humility but also the recognition that the one we love above all others deserves more than we can ever give.

The second quote is from Mt 25:21
“His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.”
And this is what we hope to hear even though we know we are “unworthy servants” who have “earned” nothing…

Seek after Love…for in Love there is no earning, no credits or debits, only the free exchange of joy and sorrow and doing and most of all BEING - Love.

Peace
James
 
So because True Love isnt just a mushy emotion or empty proclamations of verses, but rather shown by our actions and how we treat our neighbors, choosing to engage in these actions is choosing to love?
Reverse your thinking and you have it.
The actions CAN come from other things than love…
So - Choosing to Love is choosing to engage in these actions.

This may seem like a subtle distinction…but it is important.

Remember where Jesus condemns the pharisees for doing things for show…so people will see them praying or giving alms or whatever?
Choosing to do the actions without the Love - the justice - can turn into that kind of egotistical performance.
But starting with Love…its a whole different ballgame…the actions flow with little or no thought and if anyone DOES notice and comment - it’s almost embarrassing…the giver sees nothing worthy of comment…It was simply a natural action.

This is what John is trying to say when he talks about “being” to BE like the Father and our brother and King.

Peace
James
 
Ok this last post of yours was much more clear to me, thank you for that.
Where there is an expectation of a recompense…loveisnot perfected. Where any recompense is seen as either undeserved, or “icing on the cake”…Love is much nearer to perfection.
This clicked much more with me right here, but sort of brings me back to my question of howdoes one know theyre doing it with no expectation of a reward? Its easy to serve my family and expect no reward, for instance, because I am attached to them, but for others, I wish everyone the same happiness and love I feel with my family as well…however since Im not attached to non-family all the time and so emotionally for example, how do we know that we are not subconsciously serving them and saying “Look, God, look. Take note of this!” instead of serving them because we wish them the same happiness we have?

What if one does not feel like serving others but does because he wishes to do the will of God regardless?
 
Reverse your thinking and you have it.
The actions CAN come from other things than love…
So - Choosing to Love is choosing to engage in these actions.

This may seem like a subtle distinction…but it is important.

Remember where Jesus condemns the pharisees for doing things for show…so people will see them praying or giving alms or whatever?
Choosing to do the actions without the Love - the justice - can turn into that kind of egotistical performance.
But starting with Love…its a whole different ballgame…the actions flow with little or no thought and if anyone DOES notice and comment - it’s almost embarrassing…the giver sees nothing worthy of comment…It was simply a natural action.

This is what John is trying to say when he talks about “being” to BE like the Father and our brother and King.

Peace
James
And even more clearer. So the saying “you cant earn” Heaven is typically meant for those who do good deeds for show then?
 
Ok this last post of yours was much more clear to me, thank you for that.
You are welcome
This clicked much more with me right here, but sort of brings me back to my question of how does one know they’re doing it with no expectation of a reward? Its easy to serve my family and expect no reward, for instance, because I am attached to them, but for others, I wish everyone the same happiness and love I feel with my family as well…however since Im not attached to non-family all the time and so emotionally for example, how do we know that we are not subconsciously serving them and saying “Look, God, look. Take note of this!” instead of serving them because we wish them the same happiness we have?
What if one does not feel like serving others but does because he wishes to do the will of God regardless?
To be perfectly honest, I don’t know how to answer this.
Your analogy to family is a good one…and I would say that we need to seek to become just as attached to God. Though obviously there are certain differences involved.
As for knowing if one is doing something out of love or for recompense…My guess is that one never fully knows on this side of the veil. One can certainly have a fair idea though.
Probably the best answer I can give you right now is that the shift from obedience out of fear to service out of love is something of a gradual one. There will be “AHA” moments and there will be dry spells. Times when you can’t wait to do things for others, and times when you struggle just to hold a door for someone.
But over time, as you pray, and study, and commit, and act, and most especially as you recognize more and more the great Love God has for you the less you will care about any reward connected with an action. your attitude will become more and more…“here I am Lord, what do you wish me to do”…

You are early in a very exciting journey…I think that the book in my signature might be of considerable help to you in answering these questions. It’s not my book so I make nothing off it’s sale…but it has been a great blessing to me and to many others.

Peace
James
 
And even more clearer. So the saying “you cant earn” Heaven is typically meant for those who do good deeds for show then?
That is certainly an aspect of it yes…

Normally when that statement is used, it is because someone is placing too much emphasis on their “works” and not enough on what they actually ARE.
The classic example might be the person who comes to mass on Sunday but then nearly runs people down trying to get out of the parking lot.

The interplay between what we believe and what we do is a delicate one and needs to be pursued in such a way as we become more and more perfected in Love. For this is what we are called to…
You, therefore, must be perfect (in Love), as your heavenly Father is perfect (Mt 5:48
It’s a tall order. But with God - All things are possible (even if it takes purgatory to finish the job)

Peace
James
 
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